HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Non-Sports > Political Discussion - "on-topic & unmoderated"
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Political Discussion - "on-topic & unmoderated" Rated PG13, unmoderated but threads must stay on topic - that means you can flame each other all you want as long as it's legal

The End of Hugo Chavez?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-05-2013, 11:02 PM
  #126
slip
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 9,814
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnnywhite View Post
Thought the comment was relevant & quite subtle...even true!


Indeed. I thought Epsilon was spot on.

slip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 11:11 PM
  #127
Epsilon
#TeamRaccoon
 
Epsilon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Florence, SC
Posts: 39,667
vCash: 500
Even if it's not what DoyleG meant (I'll certainly take him at his word that it's not), there are more than a few people out there (on the internet and television) celebrating Chavez's demise who, in the 1980s, would have given a "the trains run on time" defense for pieces of shit like Pinochet and Noriega.

Epsilon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 11:26 PM
  #128
v-man
Registered User
 
v-man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,951
vCash: 500
I haven't been there myself since a few months before Chavez was first elected (at which point stories of intimidation by his campaign team were all over the place, and his imminent electoral victory was feared by everyone I talked to - who of course tended to be relatively well to do, productive, middle class people), but by all accounts my extended family there will not miss him one bit.

The term "democratically elected" can only be used when speaking of him in the same sense it is with Putin. Vast voter fraud and intimidation are all but a given, and disregard for democracy has been frighteningly apparent in the form of self serving legislation and very questionable peddling of influence.

As for those ridiculous stats shown above stating a drop to a 21.2% poverty rate, one only needs to visit Caracas to know that that is nowhere near accurate (not even taking into consideration the fact that a large number of the poor are completely undocumented, and thus don't appear in such figures, unless they are shot in the dark estimates, and thus, not credible). Then again, that graph shows a 20% drop between 97-98 alone, so the source seems questionable at the very least. The only way that 21% can be in anyway true is if the definition of poverty has been greatly redefined in that time, and the poverty line significantly lowered. Even with Hugo's misguided influx of cash to the poor, it was hardly enough to bring people out of poverty.

v-man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-05-2013, 11:44 PM
  #129
Rob
Registered User
 
Rob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: New Brunswick
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,589
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Calhoun View Post
Not if the electorate are all misanthropes.
Ah so they don't count. Gotchya.

Rob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2013, 01:11 AM
  #130
DoyleG
Mr. Reality
 
DoyleG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: YEG--->YYJ
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,392
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Even if it's not what DoyleG meant (I'll certainly take him at his word that it's not), there are more than a few people out there (on the internet and television) celebrating Chavez's demise who, in the 1980s, would have given a "the trains run on time" defense for pieces of shit like Pinochet and Noriega.
Of course, those same people would forget that Pinochet used on of Allende's policies, the nationalization of copper, to help kick-start the Chilean economic growth. Since it was such a policy that helped lead to Allende's downfall, it would be puzzling to Pinochet supporters that he would keep, if not expand such a policy.

I traveled to Chile last year and there is little to commemorate either man in today's Chile. As was put by the guide in our tour of La Chascona (Pablo Neruda's Santiago residence), Chile has decided to forget that period of their history. Basically, act as if the Allende and Pinochet eras never existed. So it has, despite attempts of people to dig up the corpses for their own political gain.

DoyleG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2013, 01:28 AM
  #131
Loose Sens
Drafting my Overalls
 
Loose Sens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,518
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
I love how everyone who says any positive word about Chavez is a far-left socialist to rubes like you. All I've been doing in this thread is disputing ridiculous misconceptions - he's a dictator, people are starving left and right, the Venezuelan economy was awesome in the '80s and '90s and then went into the toilet when he "took power." Etc. All I've said is that some aspects of his presidency were positive (diminishing poverty, better public health, lower inequality, greater political stability).

Is Venezuela as good a place to live as Canada or the United States? For most people, no. Is it a better place to live than in 1998? For most people, yes.
Please, you've shown yourself to be the rube with your history on this board. Like me?

It's funny - some people are just partisan ********. On the other hand you're just a straight moron with no twist. In other words you're plain dumb - there's no hope for you. At least with Republicans you can always hope it's just blind faith. With you it's just stupidity, ignorance, misconceptions.

It's like dealing with a PETA member or a member of an environmental group. Yeah sure in tiny doses they make sense - until you read some more and realize they took a reasonable position, and changed it - becoming full blown crazy.


Last edited by Loose Sens: 03-06-2013 at 01:33 AM.
Loose Sens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2013, 01:34 AM
  #132
Free Kassian
Registered User
 
Free Kassian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Surrey, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,150
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
Even if it's not what DoyleG meant (I'll certainly take him at his word that it's not), there are more than a few people out there (on the internet and television) celebrating Chavez's demise who, in the 1980s, would have given a "the trains run on time" defense for pieces of shit like Pinochet and Noriega.
You rang?

(I don't know how to properly embed tweets, sigh.)

Free Kassian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2013, 03:08 AM
  #133
Cu Culann
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 220
vCash: 500
RIP Hugo Chavez, you had balls.

Here's a Chavez speech from 2006. Sums him up pretty nicely.

http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/1728

Cu Culann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2013, 03:36 AM
  #134
Ilkka Sinisalo
Amazing American
 
Ilkka Sinisalo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Perth, W.A.
Country: Australia
Posts: 13,097
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by v-man View Post
I haven't been there myself since a few months before Chavez was first elected (at which point stories of intimidation by his campaign team were all over the place, and his imminent electoral victory was feared by everyone I talked to - who of course tended to be relatively well to do, productive, middle class people), but by all accounts my extended family there will not miss him one bit.

The term "democratically elected" can only be used when speaking of him in the same sense it is with Putin. Vast voter fraud and intimidation are all but a given, and disregard for democracy has been frighteningly apparent in the form of self serving legislation and very questionable peddling of influence.

As for those ridiculous stats shown above stating a drop to a 21.2% poverty rate, one only needs to visit Caracas to know that that is nowhere near accurate (not even taking into consideration the fact that a large number of the poor are completely undocumented, and thus don't appear in such figures, unless they are shot in the dark estimates, and thus, not credible). Then again, that graph shows a 20% drop between 97-98 alone, so the source seems questionable at the very least. The only way that 21% can be in anyway true is if the definition of poverty has been greatly redefined in that time, and the poverty line significantly lowered. Even with Hugo's misguided influx of cash to the poor, it was hardly enough to bring people out of poverty.
The standard of poverty is not set by each nation's leader, but by the people doing the survey. And the idea that all one has to do to see that the 21% figure is a sham is visit a crowded city with a vast shanty town is absurd. If you visit Atlanta or Detroit or south Chicago or many cities in the U.S., you'd think that the U.S. poverty rate is a sham too.

As for your story comparing him to Putin, the most recent elections in Russia had irregularities in 1/3 of the stations. Nothing even close to that has been reported in Venezuela. At all. And your statement about "well to do, productive, middle class people" is contradictory. The median income in Venezuela in 1998 was like $4000. If they were well to do, they were not middle class. They were probably rich, certainly by Venezuela's standards. So yes, I would expect those people to dislike and fear Chavez, who ran on the idea of shrinking the gap between the rich and the poor, and making it harder for international interests and wealthy Venezuelans to take a huge slice of the pie.

So wealthy interests and right-wingers generally don't like the president and left-wingers and poor people did like him. Hmmm sounds like America.

Ilkka Sinisalo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2013, 03:37 AM
  #135
Ilkka Sinisalo
Amazing American
 
Ilkka Sinisalo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Perth, W.A.
Country: Australia
Posts: 13,097
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by peon View Post
Please, you've shown yourself to be the rube with your history on this board. Like me?

It's funny - some people are just partisan ********. On the other hand you're just a straight moron with no twist. In other words you're plain dumb - there's no hope for you. At least with Republicans you can always hope it's just blind faith. With you it's just stupidity, ignorance, misconceptions.

It's like dealing with a PETA member or a member of an environmental group. Yeah sure in tiny doses they make sense - until you read some more and realize they took a reasonable position, and changed it - becoming full blown crazy.
Well you certainly just wrote a lot of words, I'll give you that much.

Ilkka Sinisalo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2013, 07:57 AM
  #136
Transplanted Caper
Registered User
 
Transplanted Caper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Internet Underbelly
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,708
vCash: 500
I'm more upset about Paul Bearer.

Transplanted Caper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2013, 08:06 AM
  #137
bombers15
5-14-6-1
 
bombers15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,354
vCash: 500
It's funny to see posters (like Tim) try to justify their hatred of Chavez, but they can't quite do it. American business interests and the American government (same thing, really) told everyone that Chavez was evil (because he was bad for corporate elites) and most people just eat it all up.

Don't get me wrong, I disagree with lots of what Chavez did. And there was certainly some political repression under him. But he wasn't that bad, all things considered. I mean, when people in this thread try to label him a dictator...gee, he doesn't look so bad for a dictator. No killing of his own people, no nuclear arms threats, and instead of stuffing his own pockets with the country's money it was redistributed to the poor. Venezuelans did tend to like him.

Again, he's no Gandhi. And as his regime went on, it became increasingly weird. But it is funny how a far-left leader will be vilified by the media in the U.S. and then people just accept what they're hearing without being able to justify it.

bombers15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2013, 10:15 AM
  #138
Loose Sens
Drafting my Overalls
 
Loose Sens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,518
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
Well you certainly just wrote a lot of words, I'll give you that much.
When you got nothing, you got nothing.

Loose Sens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2013, 10:16 AM
  #139
Loose Sens
Drafting my Overalls
 
Loose Sens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,518
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bombers15 View Post
It's funny to see posters (like Tim) try to justify their hatred of Chavez, but they can't quite do it. American business interests and the American government (same thing, really) told everyone that Chavez was evil (because he was bad for corporate elites) and most people just eat it all up.

Don't get me wrong, I disagree with lots of what Chavez did. And there was certainly some political repression under him. But he wasn't that bad, all things considered. I mean, when people in this thread try to label him a dictator...gee, he doesn't look so bad for a dictator. No killing of his own people, no nuclear arms threats, and instead of stuffing his own pockets with the country's money it was redistributed to the poor. Venezuelans did tend to like him.

Again, he's no Gandhi. And as his regime went on, it became increasingly weird. But it is funny how a far-left leader will be vilified by the media in the U.S. and then people just accept what they're hearing without being able to justify it.
It's not hatred of Chavez, it's hatred of the people who loved him, justified everything and yet never spent a DAY in Venezuela as anything but a tourist (if at all). It's like the people who talked (and still do talk) about how great communism was in Eastern Europe and Russia and yet they never spent a day under any communist regime.

And FYI there's more dictators then a handful in the Arab world and 1 in North Korea.

It's funny you and the Australian idiot keep trying to pigeonhole people into small little groups so you can dismiss it.

Loose Sens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2013, 10:19 AM
  #140
Loose Sens
Drafting my Overalls
 
Loose Sens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,518
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilkka Sinisalo View Post
The standard of poverty is not set by each nation's leader, but by the people doing the survey. And the idea that all one has to do to see that the 21% figure is a sham is visit a crowded city with a vast shanty town is absurd. If you visit Atlanta or Detroit or south Chicago or many cities in the U.S., you'd think that the U.S. poverty rate is a sham too.

As for your story comparing him to Putin, the most recent elections in Russia had irregularities in 1/3 of the stations. Nothing even close to that has been reported in Venezuela. At all. And your statement about "well to do, productive, middle class people" is contradictory. The median income in Venezuela in 1998 was like $4000. If they were well to do, they were not middle class. They were probably rich, certainly by Venezuela's standards. So yes, I would expect those people to dislike and fear Chavez, who ran on the idea of shrinking the gap between the rich and the poor, and making it harder for international interests and wealthy Venezuelans to take a huge slice of the pie.

So wealthy interests and right-wingers generally don't like the president and left-wingers and poor people did like him. Hmmm sounds like America.
Cost of living is relative. Shocking, I know.

Loose Sens is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2013, 10:23 AM
  #141
bombers15
5-14-6-1
 
bombers15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,354
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by peon View Post
It's not hatred of Chavez, it's hatred of the people who loved him, justified everything and yet never spent a DAY in Venezuela as anything but a tourist (if at all).

And FYI there's more dictators then a handful in the Arab world and 1 in North Korea.
No, it's hatred of Chavez. And it's a hatred that is not entirely rational.

But sure, you can freely criticize Chavez's supporters. Just like how I can criticize people who call him a brutal dictator, since I see their misinformed opinion as one shaped by Western media.

He was a polarizing figure, and ignorance on both sides doesn't help anything.

Quote:
It's like the people who talked (and still do talk) about how great communism was in Eastern Europe and Russia and yet they never spent a day under any communist regime.
Errr, okay? So there's, what, 7 people in the world with this view? Gee, talk about pigeonholing...

Quote:
It's funny you and the Australian idiot keep trying to pigeonhole people into small little groups so you can dismiss it.
?

I've made one post in this thread.

bombers15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2013, 10:44 AM
  #142
Mike Emrick
Moderator
Corsi's right
 
Mike Emrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Engelland
Posts: 205,240
vCash: 500
As I said before the Western media made him out to be a bad man so I believe he is a bad man, given my heavy indoctrination to Western media outlets

Mike Emrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2013, 10:47 AM
  #143
Tim Calhoun
Tim Calhoun
 
Tim Calhoun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Country: Mexico
Posts: 8,926
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by bombers15 View Post
It's funny to see posters (like Tim) try to justify their hatred of Chavez, but they can't quite do it.
I have not written a negative word about Chavez in this thread.

Tim Calhoun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2013, 10:51 AM
  #144
bombers15
5-14-6-1
 
bombers15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,354
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Calhoun View Post
I have not written a negative word about Chavez in this thread.
Well, you did call him a dictator.

But fair enough. There are better examples in this thread.

bombers15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2013, 10:53 AM
  #145
bombers15
5-14-6-1
 
bombers15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,354
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ixcuincle View Post
As I said before the Western media made him out to be a bad man so I believe he is a bad man, given my heavy indoctrination to Western media outlets
And that's my point. This is where a lot of the hatred for him comes from, but I don't think Western media is impartial here. Chavez was resistant to American corporations and American business interests, so he was denounced by the government, by corporations and by the corporate media.

Just how I see things anyway.

bombers15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2013, 10:54 AM
  #146
Vyacheslav
Pro
 
Vyacheslav's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Dat mitten
Country: United States
Posts: 16,530
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Vyacheslav
To be fair, I think just about any government power is characterized as dictatorial to Tim Thomas Calhoun

Vyacheslav is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2013, 10:57 AM
  #147
DaSystem
Registered User
 
DaSystem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,632
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bombers15 View Post
And that's my point. This is where a lot of the hatred for him comes from, but I don't think Western media is impartial here. Chavez was resistant to American corporations and American business interests, so he was denounced by the government, by corporations and by the corporate media.

Just how I see things anyway.
I don't understand what is this "Chavez was resistant to American business interests" business. Large part of Venezuela's income was and will come from oil sold to the US, and he needed that income because he kept giving oil away.

DaSystem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2013, 10:59 AM
  #148
Franck
Insolent Upstart
 
Franck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gothenburg
Country: Sweden
Posts: 8,813
vCash: 50
R.I.P to the greatest troll world politics has seen in recent history. I will certainly miss the entertainment his baiting has provided. Had a good chuckle when they mentioned how the Venezuelan VP was blaming America for giving Chavez cancer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob View Post
Neo-Cons are celebrating like Bin-Laden just died.

How was Chavez a threat to America again?
But he hurt their precious little feelings!

Franck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2013, 11:05 AM
  #149
bombers15
5-14-6-1
 
bombers15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,354
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfGom View Post
I don't understand what is this "Chavez was resistant to American business interests" business. Large part of Venezuela's income was and will come from oil sold to the US, and he needed that income because he kept giving oil away.
But American oil companies weren't able to operate there.

bombers15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-06-2013, 11:05 AM
  #150
DaSystem
Registered User
 
DaSystem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,632
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franck View Post
R.I.P to the greatest troll world politics has seen in recent history. I will certainly miss the entertainment his baiting has provided. Had a good chuckle when they mentioned how the Venezuelan VP was blaming America for giving Chavez cancer.
Won't be funny when they start using that nugget of ridiculousness to dismiss and suppress the opposition.

But I guess that saying that America gave Chavez cancer (I don't know how, maybe the CIA implanted plutonium in Fidel's butt cheeks, but if that were the case he should have gotten lip cancer instead of growing a tumor in his pelvic region, wait... *gasp*) is less stupid that maybe a civilization on Mars was wiped out by capitalism.

DaSystem is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:46 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.