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Do the Habs need Heavyweight enforcer? Part 2

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Old
03-14-2013, 10:34 AM
  #601
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
Kind of like we won against Boston in the 2008 playoffs, right?

But we were so banged up in the 2nd round that we got our ***** kicked. A team can't endure this and keep winning on the long-term.
We were so banged up? We outplayed Philly leaps and bounds in that 2nd series and Price struggled terribly.

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03-14-2013, 10:48 AM
  #602
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Originally Posted by bud12 View Post
oohhh yeaah. the good argument "go watch MMA". Neil challanged all your team the other night in your building. You have to step up. If you don't like it, go watch figure skating or ringuette.

This is hockey
You know nothing. And I've met sherpas who can spell better than you.

Neil did nothing last night, except look like an idiot. If you felt he was intimidating the habs you're wrong.

There is no good argument for the enforcer so I will leave it at this

There is nothing to say a team needs an enforcer or doesn't.

k bud.

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03-14-2013, 10:51 AM
  #603
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Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
Kind of like we won against Boston in the 2008 playoffs, right?

But we were so banged up in the 2nd round that we got our ***** kicked. A team can't endure this and keep winning on the long-term.
Wrong.

2006 Hurricanes. No enforcers on their roster.

2009 Penguins. They got to the finals with Matt Cooke and Brooks Orpik as their heavy hitters.

2008/2009 Red Wings. Feel free to consider Aaron Downey as a goon if it makes you feel any better, but apart from him they had no dedicated physical players.

Plenty of teams won the Stanley Cup without having plenty of physical players. They still came out on top because their players played with intensity and through adversity.

Quote:
Boston and Toronto win games too. They have enforcer too. Your point?
Oh wow, NHL teams win games. You got me there.

Has it ever occured to you that they may be winning games because they're simply good at playing hockey?

Come on guys, drop the tough violence-hungry goon routine. I'm a big fan of jaw-dropping hits. I'm one of those idiots who get up and cheer once a fight is ongoing. But even I realize that this game is won and lost by putting pucks in the net, not sending guys to the hospital. Look at Toronto, who spent years in the basement because they built their team based on people who could punch rather than people who could play hockey.

The best enforcers in the NHL atm are those who can play hockey. Look at David Clarkson. What makes him so valuable to the Devils? The fact that he can drop the mitts with the best of them, and the fact that he can play more than 6 minutes per game without looking like a complete clown.

Even easier, take this year's Canadiens. On paper, they're far from being the most physical team in the league. Yet they're extremely tough to play against. They're first on the puck. They play with intensity. Guys like Subban, Bouillon and Emelin are throwing big hits left and right. Forwards like Gallagher, Eller and Gionta are always violently forechecking. What do all of these players have in common? They're excellent hockey players. They don't rely on their physicality to do the work, but it's an extra card they have up their sleeve, and it's part of the reason why this team is successful this year. Hockey first, punches later.

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03-14-2013, 11:00 AM
  #604
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Originally Posted by Tendresse View Post
Wrong.

2006 Hurricanes. No enforcers on their roster.

2009 Penguins. They got to the finals with Matt Cooke and Brooks Orpik as their heavy hitters.

2008/2009 Red Wings. Feel free to consider Aaron Downey as a goon if it makes you feel any better, but apart from him they had no dedicated physical players.

Plenty of teams won the Stanley Cup without having plenty of physical players. They still came out on top because their players played with intensity and through adversity.



Oh wow, NHL teams win games. You got me there.

Has it ever occured to you that they may be winning games because they're simply good at playing hockey?

Come on guys, drop the tough violence-hungry goon routine. I'm a big fan of jaw-dropping hits. I'm one of those idiots who get up and cheer once a fight is ongoing. But even I realize that this game is won and lost by putting pucks in the net, not sending guys to the hospital. Look at Toronto, who spent years in the basement because they built their team based on people who could punch rather than people who could play hockey.

The best enforcers in the NHL atm are those who can play hockey. Look at David Clarkson. What makes him so valuable to the Devils? The fact that he can drop the mitts with the best of them, and the fact that he can play more than 6 minutes per game without looking like a complete clown.

Even easier, take this year's Canadiens. On paper, they're far from being the most physical team in the league. Yet they're extremely tough to play against. They're first on the puck. They play with intensity. Guys like Subban, Bouillon and Emelin are throwing big hits left and right. Forwards like Gallagher, Eller and Gionta are always violently forechecking. What do all of these players have in common? They're excellent hockey players. They don't rely on their physicality to do the work, but it's an extra card they have up their sleeve, and it's part of the reason why this team is successful this year. Hockey first, punches later.
Don't bother... Alot of people in this thread are strangely obsessed with the fighting aspect of the game. I like the fighting.

But I don't sit there watching a game like


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03-14-2013, 11:10 AM
  #605
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Originally Posted by fantasybaseballchamp View Post
We were so banged up? We outplayed Philly leaps and bounds in that 2nd series and Price struggled terribly.
We had no energy left in the tank. No matter if you agree with this reality or if you don't this is the truth. And this has nothing to do with the fighting. This has to do with the fact that we had no deterrent on our roster that could take the focus off of our talented players.

There's a reason why Bergeron, Krejci, Ryder and those guys did so well in Boston's 2011 cup run. It's that guys like Lucic, Horton, Ference and Marchand took the focus off their shoulder and they could play their game. Meanwhile, the other teams' tough guys had their hands full with those guys, and just let guys like Krejci play their game.

What will happen if we play Boston? That's right. They'll all be on Subban's back, on Eller's, on Pacioretty's, and they won't be able to play their game.

It's not just about fighting. It's about all the intimidation factor and what comes with it.

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03-14-2013, 11:15 AM
  #606
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Thankfully Eager clears waivers.

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03-14-2013, 11:18 AM
  #607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
We had no energy left in the tank. No matter if you agree with this reality or if you don't this is the truth. And this has nothing to do with the fighting. This has to do with the fact that we had no deterrent on our roster that could take the focus off of our talented players.

There's a reason why Bergeron, Krejci, Ryder and those guys did so well in Boston's 2011 cup run. It's that guys like Lucic, Horton, Ference and Marchand took the focus off their shoulder and they could play their game. Meanwhile, the other teams' tough guys had their hands full with those guys, and just let guys like Krejci play their game.

What will happen if we play Boston? That's right. They'll all be on Subban's back, on Eller's, on Pacioretty's, and they won't be able to play their game.

It's not just about fighting. It's about all the intimidation factor and what comes with it.
This is how Boston plays their game. I agree, it's a very efficient tactic.

But that's how Boston plays their game, not Montreal. Our team is very different than the Bruins. We couldn't achieve the same effect even if we tried. The Canadiens' strengths and weaknesses are different from the Bruins', and except if you want to go through 10 years of rebuilding just so we can field the same kind of players, we're going to have to work with what we've got.

And what we've got is a team that can do just fine without someone like Lucic or Marchand on their roster. The Bruins' way of winning is only one out of many. It's up to us to find our own instead of copying (and necessarily failing) someone else's.

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03-14-2013, 11:21 AM
  #608
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Originally Posted by Tendresse View Post
This is how Boston plays their game. I agree, it's a very efficient tactic.

But that's how Boston plays their game, not Montreal. Our team is very different than the Bruins. We couldn't achieve the same effect even if we tried. The Canadiens' strengths and weaknesses are different from the Bruins', and except if you want to go through 10 years of rebuilding just so we can field the same kind of players, we're going to have to work with what we've got.

And what we've got is a team that can do just fine without someone like Lucic or Marchand on their roster. The Bruins' way of winning is only one out of many. It's up to us to find our own instead of copying (and necessarily failing) someone else's.
Without copying anyone, we could t least try to play our game by limiting their strengths, that are to prevent other teams' best players from playing their own game.

Get Prust and Boll in there, and they'll take a lot of Thornton's and Lucic's attention. Get Prust in there alone, and one of those two will be taking runs at Subban, Eller, etc. as if there was no tomorrow. And ultimately, these guys shouldn't have to worry about playing that kind of game. Just like a guy like Krejci shouldn't have to worry about Prust.

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03-14-2013, 11:29 AM
  #609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
Without copying anyone, we could t least try to play our game by limiting their strengths, that are to prevent other teams' best players from playing their own game.

Get Prust and Boll in there, and they'll take a lot of Thornton's and Lucic's attention. Get Prust in there alone, and one of those two will be taking runs at Subban, Eller, etc. as if there was no tomorrow. And ultimately, these guys shouldn't have to worry about playing that kind of game. Just like a guy like Krejci shouldn't have to worry about Prust.
And then Boll proceeds to do absolutely nothing else on the ice.

What makes this team strong right now is the fact that all 4 lines are working full throttle. Guys like Armstrong and White 2.0 aren't doing much on the statsheet, but their intensity draws penalities, forces turnovers and keeps pressure on the offensive zone.

If Boll can keep up the pace and play the same kind of hockey these guys are, then he would be an excellent addition to this squad. The problem is, I don't think he can. And I don't think there are a lot of enforcers in this league who can.

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03-14-2013, 11:40 AM
  #610
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Originally Posted by Tendresse View Post
And then Boll proceeds to do absolutely nothing else on the ice.

What makes this team strong right now is the fact that all 4 lines are working full throttle. Guys like Armstrong and White 2.0 aren't doing much on the statsheet, but their intensity draws penalities, forces turnovers and keeps pressure on the offensive zone.

If Boll can keep up the pace and play the same kind of hockey these guys are, then he would be an excellent addition to this squad. The problem is, I don't think he can. And I don't think there are a lot of enforcers in this league who can.
You don't know Jarred Boll, do you?

He's everything this team could use on the 4th line.

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03-14-2013, 11:45 AM
  #611
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We basically need a guy for the next three years until Tinordi fills out. Don't want to see Tinordi Komisarek due to him feeling he has to be that guy right away.

Once Tinordi fills out he'll be a legit heavyweight IMO though, perhaps not a top 5 heavyweight, but a legit heavy who can play 25 mins a night is what I think he can be. Like a more willing Douglas Murray.

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03-14-2013, 11:55 AM
  #612
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03-14-2013, 12:53 PM
  #613
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
So teams can win without enforcers, teams can win with enforcers, teams can lose with enforcers, teams can lose without enforcers. Maybe the point is enforcers don't have much of an impact on whether you win or lose.

You are thinking on a micro level. Winning an individual game.

Think back to the last time the Habs won a Cup. Teams were not pushing the Habs around on the ice. Neil would have gotten his ass handed to himself last night.............and the Canadiens would still have won the game.

This team is still soft and the teams who are tougher, enforcers included, will continue to play extremely aggressive against our players. That takes a toll on our skill players, whether you are willing to admit it or not.

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03-14-2013, 12:57 PM
  #614
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
You are thinking on a micro level. Winning an individual game.

Think back to the last time the Habs won a Cup. Teams were not pushing the Habs around on the ice. Neil would have gotten his ass handed to himself last night.............and the Canadiens would still have won the game.

This team is still soft and the teams who are tougher, enforcers included, will continue to play extremely aggressive against our players. That takes a toll on our skill players, whether you are willing to admit it or not.
You can have a team full of enforcers, I don't think it will stop guys like Neil from taking runs at guys. If he stops doing that he is no longer an NHL player.

I would still like Prust back in the lineup plus a heavyweight enforcer...but I'm not naiive enough to think Neill would behave like a lamb because of those two.

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03-14-2013, 01:07 PM
  #615
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
You can have a team full of enforcers, I don't think it will stop guys like Neil from taking runs at guys. If he stops doing that he is no longer an NHL player.

I would still like Prust back in the lineup plus a heavyweight enforcer...but I'm not naiive enough to think Neill would behave like a lamb because of those two.
Neil is gonna have Kassian soon to back him up for anything he's gonna attempt on the ice.

All our main divisional opponents have at least a couple of guys who can play really rough and drop them at anytime.

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03-14-2013, 01:07 PM
  #616
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
You can have a team full of enforcers, I don't think it will stop guys like Neil from taking runs at guys. If he stops doing that he is no longer an NHL player.

I would still like Prust back in the lineup plus a heavyweight enforcer...but I'm not naiive enough to think Neill would behave like a lamb because of those two.
The non enforcer crowd continues to miss the point.

You will never prevent every cheap shot nor will you prevent every run or dirty hit against the boards against skill players.

It is about punishing players like Neil. Run Subban and you will have to fight. Neil will them be removed from the game for 5 minutes. if it happens again, Neil has to take more shots to the head and off the ice for 5 more minutes. If he does not get the message, he fights again for the 3rd time in the game and is removed from the game.

What I described is 15 + minutes that Neil is not on the ice trying to run our players. Along with that is a few more lumps and bruises on his face and more pain.

We cannot afford to have Prust doing that job because Prust is more valuable on the ice than in the box.

All Neil had to face for his actions was............nothing other than glares from Boullion and Moen, maybe White.

Pathetic.

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03-14-2013, 01:10 PM
  #617
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
The non enforcer crowd continues to miss the point.

You will never prevent every cheap shot nor will you prevent every run or dirty hit against the boards against skill players.

It is about punishing players like Neil. Run Subban and you will have to fight. Neil will them be removed from the game for 5 minutes. if it happens again, Neil has to take more shots to the head and off the ice for 5 more minutes. If he does not get the message, he fights again for the 3rd time in the game and is removed from the game.

What I described is 15 + minutes that Neil is not on the ice trying to run our players. Along with that is a few more lumps and bruises on his face and more pain.

We cannot afford to have Prust doing that job because Prust is more valuable on the ice than in the box.

All Neil had to face for his actions was............nothing other than glares from Boullion and Moen, maybe White.

Pathetic.
I'm sure guys like White and Moen would fight more if they had a HW "big brother" type.

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03-14-2013, 01:15 PM
  #618
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I'm sure guys like White and Moen would fight more if they had a HW "big brother" type.
White "new style" is puzzling.... How come he doesn't drop them anymore ?

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03-14-2013, 01:20 PM
  #619
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Originally Posted by Habtchum View Post
White "new style" is puzzling.... How come he doesn't drop them anymore ?
Prust is dropping them less as well. I can only speculate but I suspect Therrien has implemented somthing to the sort of play hockey first fight second. I'm sure White has permission to drop them after his fighting re-hab on the bench.

But there really hasn't been a need too because we're winning.

I also speculate that Therrien recognized how dangerous it was for Prustty to dance with Lucic. I'm sure somthing was said about that besides "he was brave"

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03-14-2013, 01:28 PM
  #620
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If the Sens were up 4-3 in the 3rd and Moen challenged Neil, I guarantee you Neil would have refused to drop the gloves.

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03-14-2013, 01:37 PM
  #621
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Prust is dropping them less as well. I can only speculate but I suspect Therrien has implemented somthing to the sort of play hockey first fight second. I'm sure White has permission to drop them after his fighting re-hab on the bench.

But there really hasn't been a need too because we're winning.

I also speculate that Therrien recognized how dangerous it was for Prustty to dance with Lucic. I'm sure somthing was said about that besides "he was brave"
Prust was one pace to have his biggest amount of fighting majors in career...

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03-14-2013, 01:40 PM
  #622
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Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
Prust was one pace to have his biggest amount of fighting majors in career...
With his busted shoulder, he might be less pugnacious when he's back.

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03-14-2013, 01:42 PM
  #623
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With his busted shoulder, he might be less pugnacious when he's back.
Yeah right... I doubt that. He's not a pile of dog turds like Moen.

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03-14-2013, 01:43 PM
  #624
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Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
Prust was one pace to have his biggest amount of fighting majors in career...
I know.

But in an article on the official site Therrien said something along the lines of 'Prust is getting the chance to play hockey, maybe for the first time in his career'

Referring to Prust's previous uses as a goon.

I'm not saying Prust has never posted good numbers and lots of fights cause he has.

I just think Therrien is preferring to use him for hockey primarily.

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03-14-2013, 01:45 PM
  #625
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Originally Posted by Habbybirthday View Post
I know.

But in an article on the official site Therrien said something along the lines of 'Prust is getting the chance to play hockey, maybe for the first time in his career'

Referring to Prust's previous uses as a goon.

I'm not saying Prust has never posted good numbers and lots of fights cause he has.

I just think Therrien is preferring to use for hockey primarily.
With a guy like Prust, fighting and playing come hand in hand. It's a package deal. He's effective because he's playing a hard-nosed, implicated game, and he can play this kind of game when he's effective. You can't tell a guy like Prust to focus more about one aspect over the other. His efficiency all around the ice, with or without the puck, physical game or not, comes from the fact he has that attitude in everything he does.

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