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Brooks Orpik

View Poll Results: What would you do with Orpik?
Trade him this season if the right deal is there. 84 63.64%
Move him in the offseason. 17 12.88%
Let him play out his contract here. 22 16.67%
Resign him this summer. 9 6.82%
Voters: 132. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-05-2013, 10:25 PM
  #26
Darth Vitale
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He's been one of my favorite players for a long time but if the bad play continues AND a GOOD deal is offered... at his age, with our prospects, I'd take it. That's different than just trying to get rid of him (Kennedy, et al) but at this stage it might make sense if someone's willing to be a heavy price.

Otherwise I don't have a problem with Shero having "the talk" with him this summer. Not that there's any guarantee it works. To me he looks a step slow out there, so given that he's healthy and had a long rest before the season... I can't really see any explanation for it other than age. His body has taken a beating over the years and more than most, so it wouldn't be a shock AFAIC.

Still respect what the guy has brought us, but he has to improve otherwise the GMs hand is forced IMO.

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03-05-2013, 10:57 PM
  #27
jmelm
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I'm squarely in between Option 1 and Option 2 (but no such condition was offered in the poll). So basically: I'll happily trade him now, if there's a solid deal to be had; otherwise, I'll happily keep him for this year's run and trade him at the draft for the best possible return.


Probably doesn't make sense to move him this season, however, unless we're getting an A-level prospect or a mid-late 1st/high 2nd round pick in return; or better yet, a good young winger who we think can play with us for a long time (Seto, Stewart, Bailey, etc.)

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03-05-2013, 11:05 PM
  #28
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I chose option 1 as he is not an untouchable asset and plays in area of organisational depth. I do not see how you can justify not trading him if the right deal came along.

That simple for me.

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03-05-2013, 11:16 PM
  #29
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We are not going to become noticeably better at playing tough D and clearing the crease by trading Brooks Orpik, unless we are getting an elite player instead.

The Martin-Orpik pairing has been sweet for us the majority of the season, and Orpik's baaad games have coincided with Martin being out.

There needs to be adjustments defensively, but it is about our defensive scheme in general, and the coverage provided by the forwards, more so than it is about any individual player.

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03-05-2013, 11:44 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
We are not going to become noticeably better at playing tough D and clearing the crease by trading Brooks Orpik, unless we are getting an elite player instead.

The Martin-Orpik pairing has been sweet for us the majority of the season, and Orpik's baaad games have coincided with Martin being out.

There needs to be adjustments defensively, but it is about our defensive scheme in general, and the coverage provided by the forwards, more so than it is about any individual player.

That's the thing, you can make a strong argument both ways. The way I see it is: if we could get a guy like Setoguchi/Stewart, or as part of a package for a Corey Perry, then you have to think of it as: if we're scoring 30-40 goals more per season (pro-rated for playoffs obviously), does that off-set the defensive "loss" or increased goals-against by losing Orpik?


No question, we would become a "softer" team to play against by losing Orpik, but would we really be a worse team? Also, while an un-proven guy like Despres or Bortuzzo will not have the intimidation factor of Orpik, they are capable of being tough/physical players, and at some point, they're going to have to learn how to be full-time NHLers.


So very difficult question, but fair to say that while you wouldn't dump him or trade him for futures, you do move him if you can get an established player in return (Setoguchi/Stewart/Umberger/Perry) who can add offense right away.

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03-06-2013, 12:16 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
So very difficult question, but fair to say that while you wouldn't dump him or trade him for futures, you do move him if you can get an established player in return (Setoguchi/Stewart/Umberger/Perry) who can add offense right away.
No. Value be damned.
Adding a forward while losing Brooks Orpik makes our D weaker and less playoff ready than it already is. We are not there with our prospects that they can take over his role, and if we lose Orpik we have questionmarks on both our top pairings. No go during this season. It is almost banal.

...and I am not really going to discuss Perry in that context, because it would take a whole hell of a lot more than Orpik, and I would not be at all sure we could sign Perry and have a competent D next season.

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03-06-2013, 12:24 AM
  #32
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He honestly looks like he's just regressed as a player. When he first came into the league he would always go body first and try to make the big hit rather than play the puck. Dan largely got him away from that except for flashes where he'd go off the reservation, but he seems like that's all he wants to do. Not sure if he's just become apathetic to the system or if there's something larger, but it's not fitting right now. That said, teams will want him and we could get something for him. Trade him.

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03-06-2013, 12:56 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by HotCoffey View Post
He honestly looks like he's just regressed as a player. When he first came into the league he would always go body first and try to make the big hit rather than play the puck. Dan largely got him away from that except for flashes where he'd go off the reservation, but he seems like that's all he wants to do. Not sure if he's just become apathetic to the system or if there's something larger, but it's not fitting right now. That said, teams will want him and we could get something for him. Trade him.
How long is your memory, really? I am questioning a lot of people on that on the Orpik issue right now.

How many times during this season has the Martin/Orpik pairing been justly celebrated on this forum?

We've had some terrible defensive games lately, but I just want to repeat that Orpik was one the ice for one goal at Florida and Carolina. And that was Campbell's PP goal, a shot that Orpik had nothing to do with and Vokoun ought to have had. He was TERRIBLE at Montreal (and like most other D-men against Philly also, when our D really started to unwind), and he looked very dodgy against Tampa. But those last two games were without Martin.
He will have some lame give-aways and poor puck handling as a general occurrence - he ALWAYS did. But right now people are really exaggerating his struggles. Taking a few bad games and making it seem like it has been all season. It hasn't. At all. I will concede that I think Brooks has been less physical than in latter seasons, and too much so. But perhaps that is also in part because his minutes have kept going up over the past three seasons and against higher and higher quality of competition. At some point they are going to be too heavy for him to sustain his level of physicality and I think it would be good for Brooks and the Pens to get him back down to 20 minutes rather than the 23 he is at now.


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Old
03-06-2013, 01:33 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
How long is your memory, really? I am questioning a lot of people on that on the Orpik issue right now.

How many times during this season has the Martin/Orpik pairing been justly celebrated on this forum?

We've had some terrible defensive games lately, but I just want to repeat that Orpik was one the ice for one goal at Florida and Carolina. And that was Campbell's PP goal, a shot that Orpik had nothing to do with and Vokoun ought to have had. He was TERRIBLE at Montreal (and like most other D-men against Philly also, when our D really started to unwind), and he looked very dodgy against Tampa. But those last two games were without Martin.
He will have some lame give-aways and poor puck handling as a general occurrence - he ALWAYS did. But right now people are really exaggerating his struggles. Taking a few bad games and making it seem like it has been all season. It hasn't. At all. I will concede that I think Brooks has been less physical than in latter seasons, and too much so. But perhaps that is also in part because his minutes have kept going up over the past three seasons and against higher and higher quality of competition. At some point they are going to be too heavy for him to sustain his level of physicality and I think it would be good for Brooks and the Pens to get him back down to 20 minutes rather than the 23 he is at now.

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03-06-2013, 01:48 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
How long is your memory, really? I am questioning a lot of people on that on the Orpik issue right now.

How many times during this season has the Martin/Orpik pairing been justly celebrated on this forum?

We've had some terrible defensive games lately, but I just want to repeat that Orpik was one the ice for one goal at Florida and Carolina. And that was Campbell's PP goal, a shot that Orpik had nothing to do with and Vokoun ought to have had. He was TERRIBLE at Montreal (and like most other D-men against Philly also, when our D really started to unwind), and he looked very dodgy against Tampa. But those last two games were without Martin.
He will have some lame give-aways and poor puck handling as a general occurrence - he ALWAYS did. But right now people are really exaggerating his struggles. Taking a few bad games and making it seem like it has been all season. It hasn't. At all. I will concede that I think Brooks has been less physical than in latter seasons, and too much so. But perhaps that is also in part because his minutes have kept going up over the past three seasons and against higher and higher quality of competition. At some point they are going to be too heavy for him to sustain his level of physicality and I think it would be good for Brooks and the Pens to get him back down to 20 minutes rather than the 23 he is at now.
Martin's had a great season. For all the ridicule Martin got in last year's playoffs he was a -1 while Orpik was a -2. He's long since made the shift from Bruiser to Stay at home D and this year it's just not working. He's looked especially bad when paired with his old partner Letang. He was LIT UP in the philly series last year, and hasn't justified his minutes this year.

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03-06-2013, 07:14 AM
  #36
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According to Hockey Prospectus's GVT, Bortuzzo is effectively providing the same GVT / Game as Orpik. This indicates that they are contributing at roughly equal levels for the Pens.

Sure, Brooks plays against slightly tougher competition, but Brooks has been our 5th best D man this year. This hints that he is "easily" replaceable and won't necessarily be missed if he was even "just" replaced by an existing roster player (rather than a trade player).

It is time to move on from Brooks-ey IMO. There is data indicating that most of our "gut" feelings are correct about Orpik, and that he isn't really contributing at a high level towards Pen's wins.



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03-06-2013, 08:04 AM
  #37
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If the right deal comes along I'd move him

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03-06-2013, 08:32 AM
  #38
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You don't trade guys like Orpik going into the playoffs. You try and acquire them.

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03-06-2013, 08:34 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by IHWR View Post
You don't trade guys like Orpik going into the playoffs. You try and acquire them.
I would typically agree with you, but NOBODY wants to acquire an Orpik guy the way he is playing today. He's very bad right now. He needs to get his **** together.

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03-06-2013, 08:40 AM
  #40
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I would typically agree with you, but NOBODY wants to acquire an Orpik guy the way he is playing today. He's very bad right now. He needs to get his **** together.
There's a thread about acquiring Douglas Murray on our boards. This place is starting to lose it if you ask me.

Besides...the playoffs are a different animal. Orpik's built for the postseason. He'll be fine.

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03-06-2013, 08:47 AM
  #41
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I would typically agree with you, but NOBODY wants to acquire an Orpik guy the way he is playing today. He's very bad right now. He needs to get his **** together.
When we're talking about specific attributes I'd say a lot of teams would want him. His wrongs are able to be righted. His wheels haven't fallen off here just his decision making.

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03-06-2013, 08:50 AM
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There's a thread about acquiring Douglas Murray on our boards. This place is starting to lose it if you ask me.

Besides...the playoffs are a different animal. Orpik's built for the postseason. He'll be fine.
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When we're talking about specific attributes I'd say a lot of teams would want him. His wrongs are able to be righted. His wheels haven't fallen off here just his decision making.
You guys make points... but he needs to step it up. He's every bit as bad as Martin was last season. This is horrendous play night in/night out from Orpik and there is zero accountability.

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03-06-2013, 09:04 AM
  #43
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You guys make points... but he needs to step it up. He's every bit as bad as Martin was last season. This is horrendous play night in/night out from Orpik and there is zero accountability.
To be fair, he hasn't been as bad as most people obsess about. His play with the puck isn't as good as it's been but he's still making smart decisions on when to engage and when to try and knock someone's head off.

My biggest concern is his defensive zone coverage but that's not something that can't be fixed and yeah...he needs to do that.

We're second in the East, tied for first in goals for in the East, tied for first in goal differential in the East and we have the 3rd best powerplay in the league. Things aren't as terrible as most people make them out to be and dealing away a player like Orpik without truly knowing if we can replace him internally is a massive risk going into the playoffs.

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03-06-2013, 09:13 AM
  #44
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To be fair, he hasn't been as bad as most people obsess about. His play with the puck isn't as good as it's been but he's still making smart decisions on when to engage and when to try and knock someone's head off.

My biggest concern is his defensive zone coverage but that's not something that can't be fixed and yeah...he needs to do that.

We're second in the East, tied for first in goals for in the East, tied for first in goal differential in the East and we have the 3rd best powerplay in the league. Things aren't as terrible as most people make them out to be and dealing away a player like Orpik without truly knowing if we can replace him internally is a massive risk going into the playoffs.
Having a GAA of 2.91 is not sustainable in postseason hockey. We're now halfway through the season and have less than a month until the trade deadline. Not panic time, but I'd hope Shero is at least exploring all options.

IMO, I don't think we lose anything defensively promoting Despres and bringing in a deadline rental to form a shutdown pairing with Martin. And have Niskanen/Engelland round out our lineup.

A shakeup of our D personnel might not be a bad thing. Despres getting a significant role. Giving Letang the responsibility to anchor our D corps and play more of a controlled game covering up for Despres.

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03-06-2013, 09:22 AM
  #45
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Having a GAA of 2.91 is not sustainable in postseason hockey. We're now halfway through the season and have less than a month until the trade deadline. Not panic time, but I'd hope Shero is at least exploring all options.

IMO, I don't think we lose anything defensively promoting Despres and bringing in a deadline rental to form a shutdown pairing with Martin. And have Niskanen/Engelland round out our lineup.

A shakeup of our D personnel might not be a bad thing. Despres getting a significant role. Giving Letang the responsibility to anchor our D corps and play more of a controlled game covering up for Despres.
Given how Niskanen has looked with Eaton, I wouldn't opposed to seeing Despres-Letang and Martin-Niskanen. Then you just need a 3rd pairing shutdown guy to play with Bortuzzo (ideally) or Engelland instead of a top 4 shutdown guy.

That also means GMRS could target a bit of scoring depth and try to get a rental defenseman thrown in, since he has a lot of young defenders who could step into the NHL at any given moment (Dumoulin & Harrington being the most likely IMO).

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03-06-2013, 09:31 AM
  #46
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Having a GAA of 2.91 is not sustainable in postseason hockey. We're now halfway through the season and have less than a month until the trade deadline. Not panic time, but I'd hope Shero is at least exploring all options.

IMO, I don't think we lose anything defensively promoting Despres and bringing in a deadline rental to form a shutdown pairing with Martin. And have Niskanen/Engelland round out our lineup.

A shakeup of our D personnel might not be a bad thing. Despres getting a significant role. Giving Letang the responsibility to anchor our D corps and play more of a controlled game covering up for Despres.
So...Orpik's the reason teams are scoring more goals on us this year? And...the solution is to trade for a shutdown defenseman at the deadline?

This is arguably the most linear thought process I've read on here. Fleury's got a GAA of 2.44 in 16 games played while Vokoun is sporting a brutal 3.61 in 9 games played. Was Orpik just terrible in the games Vokoun started?

Don't use goals against as a knock on a player when there's such a disparity between the two goalies. It's completely unfair.

As for a trade...why don't we just claim Hamrlik then? He's easily the best free defenseman we can get and he was an absolute minute-eater last year in the playoffs for the Caps. The price to acquire a shutdown defenseman now is way more than we'd be willing to give up, especially since it would most likely be for a rental.

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03-06-2013, 09:43 AM
  #47
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Having a GAA of 2.91 is not sustainable in postseason hockey. We're now halfway through the season and have less than a month until the trade deadline. Not panic time, but I'd hope Shero is at least exploring all options.

IMO, I don't think we lose anything defensively promoting Despres and bringing in a deadline rental to form a shutdown pairing with Martin. And have Niskanen/Engelland round out our lineup.

A shakeup of our D personnel might not be a bad thing. Despres getting a significant role. Giving Letang the responsibility to anchor our D corps and play more of a controlled game covering up for Despres.
We also need to remember there's no roster limit in the playoffs. Should the Pens feel the need to send Eaton down (Waivers) it wouldn't be a big deal. Should they do a D-man pick up at the deadline. If he clears, the Pens will have some real nice depth.

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03-06-2013, 09:46 AM
  #48
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Orpik's brain seems to be deteriorating more than his body is. The majority of the mistakes he's making are due to stupidity, whether it be bad positioning or making dumb passes or hanging onto the puck too long.
I agree. He still skates as well as anyone. That's his meal ticket. But his hockey sense has never really been very good. The difference is he's no longer intimidating or dangerous to play against, and opponents seem to 'attack' his side of the ice far more than they used to.

I'd definitely be looking to move him right now. His reputation still has some shelf life, I think.

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03-06-2013, 09:48 AM
  #49
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So...Orpik's the reason teams are scoring more goals on us this year? And...the solution is to trade for a shutdown defenseman at the deadline?

This is arguably the most linear thought process I've read on here. Fleury's got a GAA of 2.44 in 16 games played while Vokoun is sporting a brutal 3.61 in 9 games played. Was Orpik just terrible in the games Vokoun started?

Don't use goals against as a knock on a player when there's such a disparity between the two goalies. It's completely unfair.

As for a trade...why don't we just claim Hamrlik then? He's easily the best free defenseman we can get and he was an absolute minute-eater last year in the playoffs for the Caps. The price to acquire a shutdown defenseman now is way more than we'd be willing to give up, especially since it would most likely be for a rental.
If we're moving a roster D for Sid's winger, I move Orpik over Despres. Orpik is not bringing anything a #4/5 D with some size couldn't playing a shutdown role with Martin. They can be had at the deadline for picks. Happens every year.

You can disagree. But it's certainly not a linear thought process.

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03-06-2013, 09:55 AM
  #50
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We need a Dman like Orpik. It's a long season and there's a lot of hockey left.

Yeah he's been in the twilight zone for a long stretch but we don't have to talk about trading someone every time they rub us the wrong way. Reminds me of how many people were talking about sitting Kunitz, at least for parts of games. Honestly how stupid does that sound now?

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