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Madison Square Garden Permit Renewal

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Old
03-07-2013, 09:32 PM
  #26
Ernie
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Kind of ironic that they destroyed the original Penn Station to build MSG.

Actually, probably not so ironic.

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03-07-2013, 09:48 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotta Catch Em Staal View Post
For those who are not familiar with the MSG/Penn Station debacle, here is the OLD Penn Station (which is where MSG sits today): http://www.businessinsider.com/penn-...s-2011-12?op=1



Here it is today:



Makes me want to cry.
Interesting ... I always kind of wondered why Penn Station wasn't more like 30th St. Station in Philly, since they were built in the same era.

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03-07-2013, 10:25 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aqib View Post
Regarding Penn Station not being aesthetically pleasing as it was in the past, I had to commute through there for a couple of years. When you are commuting you just don't care. You just want to get to work or go home as the case maybe
Did you commute through the old one?

I notice aesthetics on my drive to work, and I pick the route I find most pleasing. Maybe something to do with choice compared to rail? I didn't really care as much on my bus trips to university, now that I think about it.

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03-07-2013, 11:41 PM
  #29
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I used to use Penn station in the early 80,s and it was terrible with hundreds of bums and prostitutes on the fringes. People didn,t feel safe. Now when I take my kids to Rangers games I have no problem walking around Penn station. What a difference!

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03-08-2013, 12:44 AM
  #30
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It would've been smarter to get the permit renewed prior to sinking a billion $ into the building.

They just lost a ton of leverage now. The city can easily say they don't want to give the tax break anymore, either take it or lose that $1 billion investment.

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03-08-2013, 07:28 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bickel41 View Post
I used to use Penn station in the early 80,s and it was terrible with hundreds of bums and prostitutes on the fringes. People didn,t feel safe. Now when I take my kids to Rangers games I have no problem walking around Penn station. What a difference!
I have only experienced NYC within the past 20 years, but from what I understand the change you describe applies to a lot more of Manhattan than just Penn Station.

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03-22-2013, 03:56 PM
  #32
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http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/new...how-tax-430371

Yet NY state is working on a "customized" tax credit to lure the Tonight Show (back) to NYC when Jimmy Fallon takes over.


Guess it's an issue of how much importance the politicians place on things.

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03-22-2013, 04:19 PM
  #33
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Maybe NY shouldn't have allowed Penn Station (the real one back in the day) to be demolished in the first place if they care so much. They almost got rid of Grand Central too. The death of the former spurred conservation efforts for the latter. Had NY cared about preserving landmarks during this period, both would still exist and this would be a non issue.

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03-22-2013, 05:20 PM
  #34
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Are they gonna install the new scoreboard next season?

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03-22-2013, 05:42 PM
  #35
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Maybe NY shouldn't have allowed Penn Station (the real one back in the day) to be demolished in the first place if they care so much. They almost got rid of Grand Central too. The death of the former spurred conservation efforts for the latter. Had NY cared about preserving landmarks during this period, both would still exist and this would be a non issue.
Demolishing the original Penn Station made NYC start implementing their own landmarks. As much as a shame it was, something always has to get ****ed up before they decide to make a change. If knocking down Penn Station made NYC start declaring landmarks, then I think it was worth it.

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Old
03-28-2013, 02:31 PM
  #36
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Manhattan Borough President says renew MSG permit for 10 years, then move it:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...#ixzz2OrdJlzBU

Quote:
Madison Square Garden should be planted somewhere else, a city pol says.

Penn Station is bursting at the seams — and to give it room to expand, the city should refuse to give the Garden an indefinite permit to stay atop the cramped station, Manhattan Borough President Scott Stringer argues.

Instead, the city should extend the Garden’s permit — which expired in January — for only 10 years while the arena looks for a new spot, Stringer says.
Quote:
The City Planning Commission and City Council will have final say on the permit, while Stringer’s vote is advisory. The Council might resist giving the Garden what it wants because Cablevision, which arena owner James Dolan also runs, has experienced recent labor strife.

A spokesman for Madison Square Garden said the arena was being “unfairly singled out” since no other sports venue in the city has a time limit on its operations.

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03-28-2013, 03:02 PM
  #37
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I can't see that happening, unless the city is going to pick up a huge portion of the tab. Dolan just poured a ton of money into the place.

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03-28-2013, 03:17 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
I have only experienced NYC within the past 20 years, but from what I understand the change you describe applies to a lot more of Manhattan than just Penn Station.
Yeah, I've heard that Times Square used to be rampant with prostituion and crime as well.



Quote:
Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
I can't see that happening, unless the city is going to pick up a huge portion of the tab. Dolan just poured a ton of money into the place.
Why is that? Was there an understanding between Dolan and the city that the permit would be renewd indefinetely? Or did he simply do the upgrades on the assumption that he would get his way?

If its the latter I see no reason why the city should pick up anything.

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03-28-2013, 03:23 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
Yeah, I've heard that Times Square used to be rampant with prostituion and crime as well.





Why is that? Was there an understanding between Dolan and the city that the permit would be renewd indefinetely? Or did he simply do the upgrades on the assumption that he would get his way?

If its the latter I see no reason why the city should pick up anything.
Times square used to be REALLY bad, especially near the Bus terminal. Giuliani cleaned it up. As for the Garden, Dolan will sue and it will get held up for years. I do not think the city should pay at all, just looking at it objectively. Dolan is not just going to give up without a fight.

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03-28-2013, 03:46 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
I can't see that happening, unless the city is going to pick up a huge portion of the tab. Dolan just poured a ton of money into the place.
So he can force the city to bend to his will just by spending a lot of money on his property? Why does it concern the city how much he invested in it? It's on Dolan to figure out the permit issue before investing so much, not on the city.

I still don't really think there will be any serious push from the city (not in the next 10 years at least) to move MSG. They may extend the permit for only 10 years, but then it will probably just end up getting renewed again 10 years down the line. It really all depends on if Dolan is interested in moving, which he may be under the right conditions. If he's not, though, and the city does push back on the permit, it could be an interesting court battle. I'm not sure what grounds he would sue on; maybe the 5th Amendment takings clause. I'm not sure that applies here, though, and would be interested in trying to dig up some precedent.

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03-28-2013, 03:59 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotta Catch Em Staal View Post
So he can force the city to bend to his will just by spending a lot of money on his property? Why does it concern the city how much he invested in it? It's on Dolan to figure out the permit issue before investing so much, not on the city.

I still don't really think there will be any serious push from the city (not in the next 10 years at least) to move MSG. They may extend the permit for only 10 years, but then it will probably just end up getting renewed again 10 years down the line. It really all depends on if Dolan is interested in moving, which he may be under the right conditions. If he's not, though, and the city does push back on the permit, it could be an interesting court battle. I'm not sure what grounds he would sue on; maybe the 5th Amendment takings clause. I'm not sure that applies here, though, and would be interested in trying to dig up some precedent.
I could be wrong, but before he did the renovation, he approached the city about leaving the garden and taking over the post office across the street. City rejected it and he went ahead with the renovation. Now, they want him to do exactly what they rejected a few years ago?

Besides, the borough president is really out of his league here. He will have no say in what goes on here. I didn't even know who the manhattan borough president was until I read this article. He can kick and scream all he wants, but this will be dealt with by the Mayor, the city council (who at the moment is controlled by the emperor I mean mayor), and Dolan's lawyers.

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03-28-2013, 04:02 PM
  #42
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You've got it reversed. MSG pulled out of the Moynihan Station project and decided to renovate instead, leaving Moynihan on life support. http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...ticle-1.288627

Quote:
Funding commitments for the $3 billion Moynihan Station had fallen $1.2 billion short, and the state economic development official running the show bailed after ex-Gov. Eliot Spitzer quit in disgrace.

A ray of hope surfaced early Thursday when Sen. Chuck Schumer called for the Port Authority to "immediately take over the design, management and implementation of the project" to get it back on track.

Hours later, Garden spokesman Barry Watkins threw out a bombshell. In a press release that clearly caught Albany and City Hall off guard, he said, "After exploring several alternatives, it has become clear that the only viable option is a renovation."

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03-28-2013, 04:13 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Gotta Catch Em Staal View Post
You've got it reversed. MSG pulled out of the Moynihan Station project and decided to renovate instead, leaving Moynihan on life support. http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...ticle-1.288627
Hmm, ok thanks. Thought it was the other way around. Thanks for the clarification.

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Old
03-28-2013, 07:00 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by cheswick View Post

Why is that? Was there an understanding between Dolan and the city that the permit would be renewd indefinetely?
That's probably what the filing in the lawsuit will say. If the city decides to dick over MSG, MSG will sue, and sink enough money into legal costs to drag it out for a decade beyond the end of the permit. Which forces the city to spend quite a bit of money defending it.

Seriously, sink as much money as would be spent on the lawsuit into actually fixing the problems with Penn Station and there is no issue.

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03-29-2013, 01:21 AM
  #45
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What on earth did they do that cost $1 billion?!

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03-29-2013, 01:24 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotta Catch Em Staal View Post
For those who are not familiar with the MSG/Penn Station debacle, here is the OLD Penn Station (which is where MSG sits today): http://www.businessinsider.com/penn-...s-2011-12?op=1



Here it is today:



Makes me want to cry.
Thats gorgeous and all, but in a city like NY thats a tremendous waste of space. MSG adds WAY more to the city than a pretty subway station does. Not even close.

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03-29-2013, 01:41 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSeven View Post
Thats gorgeous and all, but in a city like NY thats a tremendous waste of space. MSG adds WAY more to the city than a pretty subway station does. Not even close.
That's highly debatable since Penn Station currently averages about 80,000 daily riders and MSG fits about 19,000. Not only that, they could have easily built MSG somewhere else instead of knocking down what should have been a national landmark.

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What on earth did they do that cost $1 billion?!
A whole lot, but just being in NYC makes it much more expensive.

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Old
03-29-2013, 09:04 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSeven View Post
Thats gorgeous and all, but in a city like NY thats a tremendous waste of space. MSG adds WAY more to the city than a pretty subway station does. Not even close.
These kinds of remarks are pretty typical of someone who doesn't understand how critical transit is to New York City. Penn Station has 80,000 daily passengers on NJ Transit, 231,000 on the Long Island Railroad, 27,000 on Amtrak, and 169,000 on the subway.

You've got over 500,000 passengers coming through that building every day, and that's not even counting people going there just to shop or eat (which in fairness probably isn't many because it's a pretty horrible place). And that ridership is only going to continue growing (but will where they put the people?).

Right now neither building is ideal. Penn Station's issues are well documented, but even the Garden after a billion dollars of renovations still can't hold up against newer venues like Barclays.


Last edited by Gotta Catch Em Staal: 03-29-2013 at 09:09 AM.
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Old
04-08-2013, 10:50 AM
  #49
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Big article on this today: http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article...TATE/304079966

Quote:
Nearly half a century after Madison Square Garden was built atop Pennsylvania Station, time may be running out for "the world's most famous arena." On Wednesday, the Garden's operators go before the City Planning Commission to renew the special permit that allows them to run the facility in the heart of Manhattan. MSG executives fully expect the permit to be renewed in perpetuity. But suddenly, it looks like that might not happen.
More on the abandoned move to the Farley building:

Quote:
Ironically, MSG spent three years and tens of millions of dollars last decade trying to engineer a move across Eighth Avenue into the old Farley Post Office location.

"We were all in," Madison Square Garden Chief Executive Hank Ratner last week recalled of the planned move.

But after rounds of negotiations with city, state and federal authorities on building a new arena went nowhere, he gave up and instead began a $980 million renovation of the existing facility that is expected to be completed in a year's time. It includes widening concourses, adding luxury boxes and improving sight lines. MSG also would like to add billboards to the exterior and improve the plazas surrounding the arena, proposals that will also require the commission's approval, and could serve as bargaining chips during negotiations.
I speculated that MSG might be able to sue the city using the 5th Amendment takings clause, and there seems to be a hint here that they might do just that if the permit is not renewed in perpetuity:

Quote:
Mr. Ratner, however, insisted that his biggest asset is the strength of the Garden's legal case in pursuing a perpetual stay, like the one the city granted to the Staten Island Yankees stadium a few years ago. Anything less, he argued, would be tantamount to the city's seizing the property.

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Old
04-09-2013, 12:50 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotta Catch Em Staal View Post

I speculated that MSG might be able to sue the city using the 5th Amendment takings clause, and there seems to be a hint here that they might do just that if the permit is not renewed in perpetuity:
Good call on the takings clause, that would be very hard for NYC to get around. Even if the court held that they could legally pull the permit, MSG would still get to sue for fair market value- and for an essentially brand new arena just recently rebuilt to the tune of a billion dollars, in the heart of NYC, that's... Let me do some math here... a metric farkton. Certainly enough money to where it would probably just be cheaper to move the station across the street.

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