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Madison Square Garden Permit Renewal

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Old
07-25-2013, 12:09 PM
  #101
Melrose Munch
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Originally Posted by QuizGuy66 View Post
Or the ultimate - Rangers to Uniondale

-QG
That would be scary and awful! The Isles would be the only city team smh...

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07-25-2013, 02:33 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by QuizGuy66 View Post
Will be quite the epic battle and is fascinating in its own right. Ultimately I think the Garden will be moved again but in how long, who knows? Assuming they have to move temporarily (which may or may not be the case) I think they would most likely play in Newark temporarily. It's much better suited to hockey than the place in Brooklyn (what an unreal seating plan for the Isles) and wouldn't have the scheduling headaches of dealing with 2 other tenants (doable, but Staples is the only place where this done). The Liberty have played at the Rock during the renovations and I get the sense that the Dolans have less animus towards the NJ ownership than to Brooklyn's (I doubt new NJ owners would change THAT fact). Ironically enough given the situation, I'm under the impression that mass transit would be a little easier to NJ than Brooklyn (though I guess Knicks fan can enlighten me on how the ride from MSG to Barclay's is).

I'll have my popcorn out that's for sure.

-QG
the knicks/rangers would play at izod before they play where the devils do.

while a new MSG is being built, the rangers/knicks will play at the current one. don't see any reason why that can't be achieved with a negotiation.

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07-25-2013, 02:39 PM
  #103
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So the city council approved a permit for a $1b renovation, then five years later says they have a decade to vacate the premises? Has to be grandstanding for the upcoming mayoral elections right? I can't imagine how much money it's going to cost the city to justly compensate Dolan, and that would just be step #1 in the entire project. Probably just cheaper to extend and renovate Penn Station below ground.

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07-25-2013, 02:39 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Gotta Catch Em Staal View Post
One thing I just cannot figure out; perhaps someone here has some insight.

It seems undisputed that Madison Square Garden, Inc. owns the Garden and the land it sits on. The land was originally leased, but purchased outright in 1985. Amtrak owns Penn Station down below. How exactly does that work? To my knowledge Amtrak certainly does not lease anything from MSG, so what is going on here? It seems like there are two separate owners on the same property.
The Pennsylvania Railroad originally auctioned off the air rights above the train station in the late 1950s, so it may be a continuation of that - MSG owns the air & development rights for the parcel, but Amtrak owns everything at and below ground level. Amtrak also owns the rail corridor that passes between 31st & 33rd streets across Manhattan, so it's probably the same deal there - Amtrak owns the land, but other people control development rights & the buildings that are on top of the railroad.

I'll see if I do a little research and find the real answer, but I have a feeling it's rooted in this.

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07-25-2013, 03:03 PM
  #105
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So the city council approved a permit for a $1b renovation, then five years later says they have a decade to vacate the premises? Has to be grandstanding for the upcoming mayoral elections right?
Not exactly. The city has not said MSG has to do anything. They have simply extended MSG's permit to host events of more than 2,500 attendees for another 10 years (instead of 50 like the original permit or in perpetuity like MSG wanted). Whether or not MSG has a legal case if the city refuses to extend that permit again in 10 years remains to be seen.

Quote:
The Pennsylvania Railroad originally auctioned off the air rights above the train station in the late 1950s, so it may be a continuation of that - MSG owns the air & development rights for the parcel, but Amtrak owns everything at and below ground level. Amtrak also owns the rail corridor that passes between 31st & 33rd streets across Manhattan, so it's probably the same deal there - Amtrak owns the land, but other people control development rights & the buildings that are on top of the railroad.

I'll see if I do a little research and find the real answer, but I have a feeling it's rooted in this.
This sounds about right, but MSG has been repeatedly stating (without anyone from the city contradicting it) that they purchased the building and the land it sits on in 1985.

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07-25-2013, 03:16 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Gotta Catch Em Staal View Post
Not exactly. The city has not said MSG has to do anything. They have simply extended MSG's permit to host events of more than 2,500 attendees for another 10 years (instead of 50 like the original permit or in perpetuity like MSG wanted). Whether or not MSG has a legal case if the city refuses to extend that permit again in 10 years remains to be seen.
This sounds like the city is telling MSG to get out of dodge:

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“Madison Square Garden will have to move and I think this permit sends a message that that work needs to begin now,” City Council Speaker Christine Quinn said following the vote.
Christine Quinn is also running for mayor. Which makes me think it's an empty threat and campaign soundbyte to capture the pro-transportation vote in the upcoming election. Grandstanding. I don't truly think the city has any intention on buying back the property from Dolan. Too expensive and not worth the hassle.

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07-25-2013, 03:25 PM
  #107
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Nobody's arguing that the city doesn't have the right to use eminent domain. In fact, that's precisely what MSG IS arguing. Denying the permit renewal would be a way to try and do a backdoor around eminent domain to avoid paying compensation- and in MSG's estimation, and mine, that would not be anywhere close to legal. If they tried, MSG would drag it out in court for a decade, and NYC would probably wind up having to pay market compensation. And the city nixing the tax break for a new location is exactly why they stayed where they are- and unless promised to a future venue, the value of that would probably have to be added to the fair market compensation.

In terms of cost, MSG just spent a billion dollars of their own money renovating the arena. They'll make it back, easy. Add to that the tax break, and fair market value for that building as it stands is probably several billion, not north of $1 Billion. It's worth more than that- if you were going to buy that building today, tax breaks in place, stupidly accessible location on top of a transit hub, biggest city in the world, refurbished to be state of the art, and you can fill it with any act in the world, one or even two a day. Cranks out enough money that it can make billion dollar investments. You don't buy that kind of a venue for just 1 billion plus. You're talking at least 3. That's fair market value- it's almost certainly the world's most valuable arena.

MSG is a very profitable proposition, we ain't talking demolishing a few 5 story walkups. Think you can find a way to rebuild an underground station, or move it across the street for 3 billion or so, plus the $500 million or so they'd probably be expecting to spend even if they could tear MSG down with no cost? That's quite a lot of money- if you think creatively, which a lot of civil engineers are used to doing in New York, I'm betting it can be done. If you want to expand Penn for $500 million, no, you couldn't do it without forcing MSG to move. But if forcing MSG to move is going to sink $2 or 3 billion, why not just spend that on building or moving the station instead? You wouldn't be able to use conventional methods. But a billion dollars can buy unconventional methods.
You'd be surprised by how little $3B gets you in major infrastructure these days. I'll try to put it in perspective for you - the New Jersey Turnpike Widening from Interchange 6 to Interchange 9 (building 6 lanes of roadway for roughly 20 miles) is going to end up costing about $2.8 Billion. And that's for a fairly straight-forward road project that's predominately within existing ROW. The Second Ave Subway line 1st stage (from 63rd St to 96th St - aprox 2 miles) is ~$4.9 Billion. The East Side Access project to bring the LIRR to Grand Central has ballooned up to about $8.4 Billion. The cancelled ARC Tunnels from NJ to NYC was going to be about $15 Billion. As stated in the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) Infrastructure Report Card, the US needs to invest roughly $3 TRILLION in order to bring our infrastructure to a state of good repair.

Getting back to the Penn Station issues, it's not as easy as just constructing a new station building. Rail has tighter design controls than most transportation infrastructure due to the nature of the system itself. As it consists of steel wheels on a steel rail, friction is the main design control for where a track can go. Throw in the higher design speeds (most commuter rail is rated for 79mph, current "high speed" NE corridor trains can max out around 150 mph, and true high speed is 220+ mph), and those controls become even more stringent. Any redesigned Penn Station will have to be built while accounting for true high-speed rail (220+ mph). At those design speeds, you're looking at maximum grades of 1% to 1.5% and minimum radius of curvature of around 3.5 miles (18,500 ft) [if you want to get technical, rail defines curves by chord, not arc, but it's a moot point], just to name a few controls. Your track location will be constrained by the tunnels on either side of Manhattan, and with a minimum curve radius of 3.5 miles, you're not going to be able to get any meaningful shift of those tracks away from the existing alignment, unless you want to go through the process of building new sets of tunnels & acquiring the rights to construct a new railroad underneath exiting buildings/street from one side of Manhattan to the other (much more costly than $3 Billion). So the railroad alignment itself is the first major strike against rebuilding an underground station.

Secondly, you would be amazed at the shear amount of crap that's buried underground in NYC. Closest to the surface, you have your distribution utilities running underneath the streets. Below that you have transmission utilities, storm sewers, and sanitary sewers. Further below, you start to come across the subway lines & other misc vaults that exist and may or may not be documented. Below that you have massive water tunnels that provide the city with its water supply. Any new underground construction has to weave its way through this, and there isn't much area where its feasible to do so. That's why the proposed NJ Transit 34th St Station was so far underground. The only way to get the space needed to build a modern train station to current standards was to go 150+ ft below grade and get below all the underground stuff. There's no way to take the existing rail tunnels and route track that far below ground without taking the tracks out of service for extended periods of time (not to mention, no good way to get construction crews in and out of the work area), which is a total non-starter.

This isn't about building a new facade and a fancy walkway for commuters to get to the trains. If that was the case, I'd be fully behind keeping MSG where it is. This is about the technical challenges and constraints related to operating the busiest train station in North America within the confines of one of the most densely developed areas of land in the world. The platforms used in Penn Station are built to standards from the early 1900s and do not adequately accommodate the modern world were everyone is required to have equal access, regardless of ability or physical limitations. The passageways and corridors were built in the 1960s to accommodate passenger volumes that have already been blown out of the water. Track capacity has already been met without any way to realign the rail yard to increase it. The only way to achieve these technical issues is to remove & relocate the existing support columns for the development above ground level, and you cannot do that without removing the buildings that are there.

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07-25-2013, 03:40 PM
  #108
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^Outstanding post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
This sounds like the city is telling MSG to get out of dodge:

Christine Quinn is also running for mayor. Which makes me think it's an empty threat and campaign soundbyte to capture the pro-transportation vote in the upcoming election. Grandstanding. I don't truly think the city has any intention on buying back the property from Dolan. Too expensive and not worth the hassle.
Well sure, they are making it clear that they intend to make this an issue and they aren't going to let it go away. I think it's more posturing to ensure MSG comes to the table with them than grandstanding. The city council voted 47 to 1, the community board 36 to 0, and the planning commission 13 to 0, so it's a pretty emphatic statement.

This was the easy thing for the city to do, though. A feel good move. It's easy for everyone to say oh yeah we totally need to improve Penn Station. Once the city, state, Amtrak, etc. actually have to come together to form a viable plan with funding to make it happen, that's when the real fun begins.

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07-25-2013, 04:39 PM
  #109
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fighter of foo i asked on the last page but im not sure if you saw it:

you know a lot more than i about this subject, how feasible is it for penn station to completely move across the street? platforms and all? is it feasible to make more platforms under 34th and 30th streets closer to 8th avenue like the plan was for macy's?

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07-25-2013, 04:44 PM
  #110
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http://www.blueshirtbanter.com/2013/...garden-to-move

SBN looks at the issue.

Quote:
So, uh, yeah, good luck with that New York City Council. As I said above, Dolan just dropped a billion dollars on the current renovations, and the City expects him to use the new arena for ten years? Right.

Remember, too, that Dolan did try to move the Garden and renovate Penn Station in 2008, plans that fell through which lead to Dolan announcing the current changes to MSG.

Expect this to be a fight, guys, especially since the City Council doesn't seem to think this is a big deal at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
So the city council approved a permit for a $1b renovation, then five years later says they have a decade to vacate the premises? Has to be grandstanding for the upcoming mayoral elections right? I can't imagine how much money it's going to cost the city to justly compensate Dolan, and that would just be step #1 in the entire project. Probably just cheaper to extend and renovate Penn Station below ground.
Yes, there will be some $$s coming to MSG for "making" them move. But it will not be enough to cover the cost of a new building.

This may be the next "Roman Numeral" saga of BOH.

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07-25-2013, 04:46 PM
  #111
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Could the Rangers move to westchester?

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07-25-2013, 06:11 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
I imagine they'd head to the West Side, where the proposed Jets stadium was going to be. They could fold this into a new attempt at bidding for the 2024 Olympics and build a temporary stadium in Flushing Meadows along the lines of the Chicago plan, perhaps with a small shell being left for the new MLS team, too.
The West Side already has a project going.

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/...anhattan-west/

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07-25-2013, 06:12 PM
  #113
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They definitely can't afford to, but there was the possibility that they almost went to play in NJ back in the 70s if I had been told correctly. How long that would have lasted is another story. But I really don't think that's totally out of the realm of possibility if they couldn't work something out. Lets not act like NYC will just start writing checks for brand new arenas like its going out of style. Think of how the west side football stadium was shot down. The difficulty the Nets had getting the Barclays built in Brooklyn. The construction costs to build a new arena in Manhattan, the budget issues that go into it. If they have to find a new building... its not exactly going to be the simplest thing in the world.

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07-25-2013, 08:27 PM
  #114
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That Turnpike widening is right by 15X right? The work that Conti does on the bridge?

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07-25-2013, 10:08 PM
  #115
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Might as well move to Flushing Meadows, which would be a good allegorical fit for all the money they flushed down the toilet renovating an arena they could only use another ten years.

Dollars to donuts, this'll get another extension somewhere down the line, then another, and another.

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07-25-2013, 11:28 PM
  #116
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Might as well move to Flushing Meadows, which would be a good allegorical fit for all the money they flushed down the toilet renovating an arena they could only use another ten years.

Dollars to donuts, this'll get another extension somewhere down the line, then another, and another.
Yea but I expect within next century MSG will move and Penn Station will return. Probably in 40 years which is usually when teams start looking for new place to play or renovate.

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07-26-2013, 10:07 AM
  #117
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Yea but I expect within next century MSG will move and Penn Station will return. Probably in 40 years which is usually when teams start looking for new place to play or renovate.
I'd say 20. MSG last did an overhaul in the early 90s. I would guess 20 years down the line they wouldn't want to spend more money to renovate it a 3rd time if this is going to be an issue.

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07-26-2013, 10:19 AM
  #118
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That Turnpike widening is right by 15X right? The work that Conti does on the bridge?
I think they mean the widening from like exit 5 to 8A. Been going on for like 3 or 4 years now it seems. Traffic is horrendous right now with only 3 or 4 lanes open along that strip. Can't wait for them to finish it

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07-26-2013, 10:27 AM
  #119
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I'd say 20. MSG last did an overhaul in the early 90s. I would guess 20 years down the line they wouldn't want to spend more money to renovate it a 3rd time if this is going to be an issue.
There's a big difference between the "overhaul" of the 90s and the one done/being done now. The current one isn't a 20 year stop gap of sorts because of how massive the upgrade. Aside from some back of house areas, there is essentially nothing NOT being touched/re-done here. Now, it kind of remains to be seen in the sports world what the shelf life is for these modern arenas/stadiums. But this was not done with the intention of waiting 20-25 years before renovating again/building new/etc. This was probably done to last for much longer on the whole aside from a few minor touch ups or small scale upgrades.

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07-26-2013, 02:00 PM
  #120
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Fwiw, this project wasn't supposed to cost $1b originally. If you look at articles from 2008 it talks about a $500 m and city officials were against them undertaking it. Newsday.com/sports/msg-executives-unveil-plan-for-renovation-1.882390

The cost got up to $775m by 2010. And now they say its $1b.

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07-26-2013, 03:21 PM
  #121
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MSG does own the Forum in LA so if pressed they could just move to LA. Heck the Dodgers did it.

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07-26-2013, 04:32 PM
  #122
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Fwiw, this project wasn't supposed to cost $1b originally. If you look at articles from 2008 it talks about a $500 m and city officials were against them undertaking it. Newsday.com/sports/msg-executives-unveil-plan-for-renovation-1.882390

The cost got up to $775m by 2010. And now they say its $1b.

That's ugly. Hopefully its done before it goes to 2 billion.

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07-26-2013, 05:55 PM
  #123
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So no one is a fan of moving to westchester county?

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07-26-2013, 06:46 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotta Catch Em Staal View Post
For those who are not familiar with the MSG/Penn Station debacle, here is the OLD Penn Station (which is where MSG sits today): http://www.businessinsider.com/penn-...s-2011-12?op=1



Here it is today:



Makes me want to cry.
Wow the old station must have been awesome, looks like you could have put a 25 Storey building inside it.

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07-27-2013, 12:53 AM
  #125
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So no one is a fan of moving to westchester county?
I grew up in Westchester County. Here is the problem. The infrastructure in NY feeds into Manhattan. By being in Manhattan the Rangers draw from the entire Tri-state area. You can get home from the game if you live in NYC, Westchester, Long Island, CT, or New Jersey. So if they moved to Westcester they would severely reduce the number of fans who can get to your game. Especially in the middle of the week when your crowd is coming from work. One of the problems the Islanders have in their current location is its a bear to get there by a 705 puck drop. Add to that most of the people who can afford Rangers tickets aren't getting out of work at 5 in NYC.

So if you put the Rangers in White Plains (biggest city in Westchester) the express train from Grand Central will take you 40 minutes to get there. So you would have to catch a train by 6 in order to get to your seat by 705, and thats if the arena is right at the train.

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