It's fun to think about, but how often does that happen? The most insane off-season in recent times was the Richards/Carter debacle. And that was Holmgren.
right, i don't think you could gut a core in a single off-season. Dallas took three seasons to purge their veteran forwards - in the last three seasons they've seen Richards walk, traded Ribeiro, Neal and Ott and will most likely trade Morrow at the deadline. that's 5 out of their top 7 scorers from 2010-11 traded over a three year period.
My issue with this line of thinking is that it's settling for mediocrity. The goal isn't to win a round in the playoffs. At some point during these past 5 years or so, this team should've been to a Stanley Cup. They haven't. Even for this team, a first round win is setting the bar way way too low. That's why I say be proactive now. Make the changes that need to be made, even if they're unpopular. When the Bruins got rid of Thornton, everyone thought it was a terrible deal. Several years later, they win the Cup. There was proactivity in that management. Not so much here.
That line of thinking isn't settling for mediocrity. That line of thinking just informs you to not jump the gun with predictions. Playoffs are far too unpredictable to know if they're out in the first round especially when teams are just as mediocre as they are right now.
I also laid out there that the problems with the team are many and deep-rooted. It's not an easy fix. A proactive rebuild only works if you have the management in place to properly find the right prospects to pick and then actually develop them. This organization can't do that.
Bringing up the Thornton trade from Boston and talking about proactive management is laughable. That management was fired soon after that trade and for good reason. Even if you make a proactive decision doesn't mean you did the right thing and underselling your top asset is stupid whether you win the Cup six years later.
The bottom line is that Hasso Plattner has to revamp the front office before any proactive roster moves are to be made and have a hope in working. The current group has a problem scouting NHL players and the GM has a problem figuring out what certain acquisitions are supposed to do with this team and the coach has issues utilizing the talent properly. Even with my criticisms of Jumbo, it's tough to lead a team when your coaches and managers are not performing their jobs as proficiently as they should. This type of problem ALWAYS starts at the top.
right, i don't think you could gut a core in a single off-season. Dallas took three seasons to purge their veteran forwards - in the last three seasons they've seen Richards walk, traded Ribeiro, Neal and Ott and will most likely trade Morrow at the deadline. that's 5 out of their top 7 scorers from 2010-11 traded over a three year period.
Dallas is so confusing. I was thinking they were gearing up for a big tank, and then they go out and sign Jagr and Whitney.
Thornton: “You’re so consumed in the game you’re just kind of trying to catch your breath, and go back at it. Pucks were bouncing a little bit. I thought we played well in the third, I don’t think the score indicated that. We pushed and we pushed hard in the third, and just unfortunately we didn’t get the points.”
Boyle: “It just sucked. It just sucked from the beginning. It just sucked, I think.”
I have no problem blaming bounces if you out-play the other team, but really?
That line of thinking isn't settling for mediocrity. That line of thinking just informs you to not jump the gun with predictions. Playoffs are far too unpredictable to know if they're out in the first round especially when teams are just as mediocre as they are right now.
I also laid out there that the problems with the team are many and deep-rooted. It's not an easy fix. A proactive rebuild only works if you have the management in place to properly find the right prospects to pick and then actually develop them. This organization can't do that.
Bringing up the Thornton trade from Boston and talking about proactive management is laughable. That management was fired soon after that trade and for good reason. Even if you make a proactive decision doesn't mean you did the right thing and underselling your top asset is stupid whether you win the Cup six years later.
The bottom line is that Hasso Plattner has to revamp the front office before any proactive roster moves are to be made and have a hope in working. The current group has a problem scouting NHL players and the GM has a problem figuring out what certain acquisitions are supposed to do with this team and the coach has issues utilizing the talent properly. Even with my criticisms of Jumbo, it's tough to lead a team when your coaches and managers are not performing their jobs as proficiently as they should. This type of problem ALWAYS starts at the top.
I agree with you that Wilson needs to be gone. But I don't see what you find so laughable about the Thornton deal as an example. Yeah, they were fired soon after the deal. But you know what happened when they got rid of Thornton, a culture change. They had this superstar player who played much like Thornton is playing right now, he floats, he turns the puck over, and he's not aggressive offensively. Oh and by the way, he's the captain. You make that move, you start a whole rebuild. Even if that includes, coaches and GMs as was the case in Boston. And once they got rid of Thornton, they adjusted their priorities and got Chara. The exact opposite of Thornton; physical, in your face, aggressive. That's a culture change.
The Thornton trade was the first step in proactivity. It got the coach and GM fired, but guess what, it set the Bruins up for the next decade. And let's not forget the Kessel deal either. That's what I'm saying about this management group. There is absolutely zero ingenuity when it comes to this roster. I hate to bring this up again, since he's playing so well, but bringing Brad Stuart on board was far from the answer here. The fact that Stuart is playing so well and the team still hasn't been very good is evidence of that very fact. Make the unpopular moves, because in the long run, they just might pay off. And to be honest, taking that risk is necessary, because what they have right now just isn't working.
That's why I'm rooting for the Flyers to implode, even though I like them, because I want Laviolette.
The funny thing is, McLellan didn't start out as a defensive coach. I'm confused as to how he turned into one...
It interesting you brought that up about Tmac, because Im pretty sure he was/is indeed a PP and Offensive first coach right? Now what seems to be this teams issue right now? Scoring on the PP and on 5v5.
The new coaches were brought in to help our PK and Def and we have a very good pp and are near the lowest in GA i believe?
Looks like good coaches were able to get something positive from the players, and were able to get our players to easily adjust to new PK strats etc. Our, maybe not so good, coach has either lost the room or just cannot get his system properly into our guys heads. However seeing as he could in years past I really think hes just lost this team.
Thornton: “You’re so consumed in the game you’re just kind of trying to catch your breath, and go back at it. Pucks were bouncing a little bit. I thought we played well in the third, I don’t think the score indicated that. We pushed and we pushed hard in the third, and just unfortunately we didn’t get the points.”
Boyle: “It just sucked. It just sucked from the beginning. It just sucked, I think.”
I have no problem blaming bounces if you out-play the other team, but really?
Thornton: “You’re so consumed in the game you’re just kind of trying to catch your breath, and go back at it. Pucks were bouncing a little bit. I thought we played well in the third, I don’t think the score indicated that. We pushed and we pushed hard in the third, and just unfortunately we didn’t get the points.”
Boyle: “It just sucked. It just sucked from the beginning. It just sucked, I think.”
I have no problem blaming bounces if you out-play the other team, but really?
Really Joe Thornton? Captain Joe Thornton? Where there's smoke there's fire, and there's a reason for Thornton's reputation. Comments like that after one of the worst games they've played in recent memory highlights the need for a total overhaul. He's our captain for god's sake!
right, i don't think you could gut a core in a single off-season. Dallas took three seasons to purge their veteran forwards - in the last three seasons they've seen Richards walk, traded Ribeiro, Neal and Ott and will most likely trade Morrow at the deadline. that's 5 out of their top 7 scorers from 2010-11 traded over a three year period.
I wouldn't mind trading one or two of our veteran forwards. Some major tweaking could do this lineup some good. This whole "trade everyone and everything for picks and prospects" thing that people keep repeating is just laughable, though. Nobody does that.
Much as I've disliked McLellan in the past, it's hard for me to totally fault him for this team playing the way they have been lately. They're just executing everything so poorly it's mind-boggling.
Exactly. And as much a Marleau fan as I am, I'm sure he's in the Thornton boat.
Remember when Clowe used to be accountable? Yeah, it's easy to call yourself out for a bad game when you're usually having good games, but now that he always sucks, not much he can do.
I agree with you that Wilson needs to be gone. But I don't see what you find so laughable about the Thornton deal as an example. Yeah, they were fired soon after the deal. But you know what happened when they got rid of Thornton, a culture change. They had this superstar player who played much like Thornton is playing right now, he floats, he turns the puck over, and he's not aggressive offensively. Oh and by the way, he's the captain. You make that move, you start a whole rebuild. Even if that includes, coaches and GMs as was the case in Boston. And once they got rid of Thornton, they adjusted their priorities and got Chara. The exact opposite of Thornton; physical, in your face, aggressive. That's a culture change.
The Thornton trade was the first step in proactivity. It got the coach and GM fired, but guess what, it set the Bruins up for the next decade. And let's not forget the Kessel deal either. That's what I'm saying about this management group. There is absolutely zero ingenuity when it comes to this roster. I hate to bring this up again, since he's playing so well, but bringing Brad Stuart on board was far from the answer here. The fact that Stuart is playing so well and the team still hasn't been very good is evidence of that very fact. Make the unpopular moves, because in the long run, they just might pay off. And to be honest, taking that risk is necessary, because what they have right now just isn't working.
Look I'm as big of a Thornton detractor as you're going to find but that is being overly generous with credit to the organization for that. The Thornton trade was not the first step in turning things around there. And that regime was going to be fired whether that Thornton trade went down or not. Chiarelli is the reason why they won the Cup and the Thornton trade had nothing to do with it and you can't give credit to an organization for being proactive like that when the trade was made by a soon-to-be fired GM that played no part in acquiring the majority of the team that won the Cup six years later.
The general thinking around the NHL is that this kind of play is more "proof" in the playoffs, especially against a hot goaltender. Teams trying to "luck" their way, betting on variance and chance, plus a super-strong defense.
At least, that is the conclusion I draw. And once the league starts to see that this kind of hockey has a weakness, they will change.
Maybe its old hat, but I will say it again: the best teams can beat you multiple ways. Of course, you can get lucky and get good matchups like the Kings or the Bruins, but the best teams are able to find success against anyone; they can either force any team to play to their game, or can beat other teams at the other team's own game.
I know that in the age of the cap, it isn't easy to build a team like that. But that Sharks have had those types of players for a few years now...
I wouldn't mind trading one or two of our veteran forwards. Some major tweaking could do this lineup some good. This whole "trade everyone and everything for picks and prospects" thing that people keep repeating is just laughable, though. Nobody does that.
Much as I've disliked McLellan in the past, it's hard for me to totally fault him for this team playing the way they have been lately. They're just executing everything so poorly it's mind-boggling.
Ummm, do you not remember the Sharks 2002-03 season? While not a total overhaul, wholesale changes were made to that team. I understand that trading everybody away is unrealistic, that's why I said a lot of these deals are unlikely, but you have to make the tough moves.
It interesting you brought that up about Tmac, because Im pretty sure he was/is indeed a PP and Offensive first coach right? Now what seems to be this teams issue right now? Scoring on the PP and on 5v5.
The new coaches were brought in to help our PK and Def and we have a very good pp and are near the lowest in GA i believe?
Looks like good coaches were able to get something positive from the players, and were able to get our players to easily adjust to new PK strats etc. Our, maybe not so good, coach has either lost the room or just cannot get his system properly into our guys heads. However seeing as he could in years past I really think hes just lost this team.
Who still thinks Tmac is not a problem?
He has lost the team. Look at his captain's response to this game. I love Joe Thornton but that kind of remark is ********. Your team was outskated and outplayed and you blame it on bounces? How about accepting some blame for not being ready to play.
He has lost the team. Look at his captain's response to this game. I love Joe Thornton but that kind of remark is ********. Your team was outskated and outplayed and you blame it on bounces? How about accepting some blame for not being ready to play.
You're expecting something more from the guy that tells people in the midst of the coaches and managers telling the players publicly to shoot more that he's a passer? If your captain is not going to follow the lead of your coaches, one of them has to go. McLellan is easier to get rid of is the problem.
Exactly. And as much a Marleau fan as I am, I'm sure he's in the Thornton boat.
Remember when Clowe used to be accountable? Yeah, it's easy to call yourself out for a bad game when you're usually having good games, but now that he always sucks, not much he can do.
Clowe has probably been muzzled by DW and co. to avoid fines.
You're expecting something more from the guy that tells people in the midst of the coaches and managers telling the players publicly to shoot more that he's a passer? If your captain is not going to follow the lead of your coaches, one of them has to go. McLellan is easier to get rid of is the problem.
The whole team isn't following that lead with the exception of a few. TMac's message is apparently not getting through. So maybe its time.
Look I'm as big of a Thornton detractor as you're going to find but that is being overly generous with credit to the organization for that. The Thornton trade was not the first step in turning things around there. And that regime was going to be fired whether that Thornton trade went down or not. Chiarelli is the reason why they won the Cup and the Thornton trade had nothing to do with it and you can't give credit to an organization for being proactive like that when the trade was made by a soon-to-be fired GM that played no part in acquiring the majority of the team that won the Cup six years later.
You yourself said that things start at the top right? Who do you think has final say on any deal? Ownership. The ownership of the Bruins didn't change. The Thornton trade was the beginning of a culture change, that subsequently included firing O'Connell, Sullivan, and Lewis, and bringing in guys like Chiarelli and Julien. So I understand that Chiarelli built the team that won the Cup, but the first move of many was the Thornton trade. Everything that came after that came as a result of that deal.
You yourself said that things start at the top right? Who do you think has final say on any deal? Ownership. The ownership of the Bruins didn't change. The Thornton trade was the beginning of a culture change, that subsequently included firing O'Connell, Sullivan, and Lewis, and bringing in guys like Chiarelli and Julien. So I understand that Chiarelli built the team that won the Cup, but the first move of many was the Thornton trade. Everything that came after that came as a result of that deal.
The management changed not in small part because the ownership saw the Thornton deal as a huge screwup. Which it was. You don't get fleeced your way to a Cup.
Ummm, do you not remember the Sharks 2002-03 season? While not a total overhaul, wholesale changes were made to that team. I understand that trading everybody away is unrealistic, that's why I said a lot of these deals are unlikely, but you have to make the tough moves.
So... I should compare this season to the one in which we finished in 14th in the West? We became sellers at the deadline due to no longer being even relevant in the playoff picture. Unless I blinked and we suddenly turned into the Blue Jackets, that's not our current situation.
Did you also miss the part of my post in which I said I'd be okay with moving one or two veterans, or...?
So what needs to change for this team to become a Stanley Cup contender again?
Here's my suggestion: rebuild.
This team isn't going anywhere, let's be honest. All they're doing is fighting to sneak in the playoffs, only to lose in the first round. Any one who says otherwise is delusional.
So to start, get rid of McLellan and Wilson. They've had their chance. The team has somehow gotten progressively worse over the last few years. And it's not getting any better any time soon. McLellan has no idea what his team is. They have absolutely zero identity. Are they a puck-possession team? Are they a dump-and-chase team? Are they a defense-first team? It seems to change every game. And the shuffling of the lines is ridiculous. Look around the league at the best teams in the league, and what do you see? Consistent lines. I think the Bruins have had the same lines going on 3 years now.
As for Wilson, he's just as much responsible for the regression of this team as McLellan. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. The Sharks have been doing the same thing for years and expecting things to get better. It hasn't and it won't. The "pro-cess" is just McLellan babble. There is no improvement, at all. Wilson is ultimately responsible for this stuck in neutral situation.
Now at this point, the Sharks have hamstrung themselves with the value of their players. Guys like Havlat, Marleau, Clowe, Thornton, Boyle have all had their trade values lowered significantly over the years, which means at this point that they won't find a trade partner, or the return will not be very good. This is the most frustrating thing about Doug Wilson. He's a completely reactive GM. There is 0 proactivity. Brad Stuart has played very well, but a 33 year old stay-at-home d-man was not gonna vault this team to a Stanley Cup. Why make that move? It's like he's fighting to stay mediocre. If you're gonna be bad, be really bad, get the draft picks and start over. There is no thinking ahead and making moves before they need to be made, only just fighting to stay alive. The one advantage with these players, and the one positive about Doug Wilson right now, is that he didn't hand out any of those long, front-loaded contracts. At least the team will have some cap flexibility going forward.
So my solution, player-wise, is simple: Shop everyone (aside from Couture, Pavelski, Vlasic, Burns, and Niemi). If you can get anywhere close to good value for these guys, specifically prospects or picks, pull the trigger. If not, their contracts will run out and the cap flexibility will kick in. The hard part about doing something like this is that the team is going to be bad for the next few years, but I personally can't watch mediocrity anymore, particularly from a team as talented as this. I would rather watch a bunch of third-liners play like animals for 60 minutes than watch Joe Thornton float around and make a pass to either no one or through 5 sticks. This is beyond frustrating, and changes need to be made. And I'm not talking about a trade here or there, I'm talking about a rebuild.
But that's just my 2 cents, what about yours?
Great post.
Keep most of the defense, Boyle, Stuart, Demers, Vlasic, etc...dump Murray, and possibly move Braun if the return is decent.
For the offense, almost complete rebuild...keep Couture plus the young and the cheap.
Seriously we're probably the only set of fans that rip on our two best players constantly in wins and in losses.
This pipe dream of a magically quick rebuild is silly. The reason Philly could trade Carters and Richards in the prime of their careers is because they had Giroux and Briere and JVR and Hartnell. Sharks don't have that luxury. If the Sharks blow it up..it will take a while to come back.
The whole team isn't following that lead with the exception of a few. TMac's message is apparently not getting through. So maybe its time.
He really just does not seem to hold vets accountable on this team, or hes been told not to. You cannot as a coach sit there and take the fact that Murray and Clowe are playing like dung, thornton refuses to shoot despite teams, literally, giving him a clear shot to the net every single time when he goes into the cycle, and not bench murray for any one of demers bruan or irwin, and either demote for a game or two or even bench thornton for a game or two if he does not change his attitude.
I really hate to talk crap on thornton because I really love the guy and think he is still an amazing player, but if Tmac is telling him to shoot and he just wont, he needs to be demoted a line or two or sat to let him know he cant just shrug crap off any more. This also all comes back to Tmac realy not seeming to try anything truely shocking to try and jump start this team, whether it works or not, or that hes completely lost the room.
