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Old
03-08-2013, 09:23 AM
  #76
Mike McDermott
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SatanwasaSlovak View Post
Ugly: The Tanking bandwagon. Go for the win or dont compete at all. Really ugly to see some fans want the team to lose just because they can get their "saviour". It's loser mentality and i don't want the team to end up in the position that Edmonton or Columbus is in with alway high draftpicks but no results. Let's do like Detroit instead, find a Zetterberg or Datsyuk in the late rounds

If we get a high draftpick (which i think we actually get because we are an unbalanced team) i think we should choose Barkov, that guy will be really good, the best finnish guy in a few years i think (depends when Selanne retires).
How about we find a GM before the draft that not only can use our high draft pick well but find a Zetterberg or Datsyuk in the later rounds as well?

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03-08-2013, 09:28 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Mike McDermott View Post
How about we find a GM before the draft that not only can use our high draft pick well but find a Zetterberg or Datsyuk in the later rounds as well?
Finding a Zetterberg or Datsyuk in the late rounds depends waaay more on our scouting department than it does Regier. He has to rely on the information provided to him by the scouts--not to mention guys like that are extremely rare.

FWIW, Miller was drafted in the 5th round.

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03-08-2013, 09:40 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
so ignore all the teams that have had success drafting high (chi, pit, LA, etc)
and instead point to the even rarer team that has had good success with a few late rounders.

makes sense
Or the team that built its initial championship teams on the backs of guys like Steve Yzerman (4th overall), Keith Primeau (3rd overall), Martin Lapointe (10th overall) and the raft of top 10 picks they had before starting to turn it around in the '90's . Let's just focus on two non-replicated picks made more than 10 years ago.

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03-08-2013, 09:45 AM
  #79
Mike McDermott
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Originally Posted by SlugLife978 View Post
Finding a Zetterberg or Datsyuk in the late rounds depends waaay more on our scouting department than it does Regier. He has to rely on the information provided to him by the scouts--not to mention guys like that are extremely rare.

FWIW, Miller was drafted in the 5th round.
I was just trying to make a point that you can do both. That even if you have a high draft pick you can still find a "gem" in the later rounds.

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03-08-2013, 09:48 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by SatanwasaSlovak View Post
Ugly: The Tanking bandwagon. Go for the win or dont compete at all. Really ugly to see some fans want the team to lose just because they can get their "saviour". It's loser mentality and i don't want the team to end up in the position that Edmonton or Columbus is in with alway high draftpicks but no results. Let's do like Detroit instead, find a Zetterberg or Datsyuk in the late rounds
When will the stupid Detroit legacy finally die?
The last great Detroit steals, Datsyuk and Zetterberg, were selected almost 15 years ago.
The world has completely changed since then and so has scouting; everyone can talk to everyone with ease, travel is easier than ever, and you can even watch players without leaving your house.
Furthermore, kids are being identified earlier than ever and players being ignored to the extent of a Datsyuk is now more unlikely than ever.
Even kids with flaws (such as size) are still properly identified if they have the skill level.

Detroit's drafting post-lockout (2005) shouldn't be ignored.
Their best bet for a top six forward seems to be Gustav Nyquist, who while good, does not look to be at the same level as some of their earlier steals.
They have the ability to find complementary players later, just like any good team.
They do have the ability to find some guys with elite elements, though: elite noodlers like Jurco and Tatar, guys that are elite at taking bad penalties like Frk.

Honestly, can someone give me a list of elite skaters that were mid to late round steals in the past decade of so?
Jamie Benn is the only one I can think of, who is borderline elite.

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03-08-2013, 09:50 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
Or the team that built its initial championship teams on the backs of guys like Steve Yzerman (4th overall), Keith Primeau (3rd overall), Martin Lapointe (10th overall) and the raft of top 10 picks they had before starting to turn it around in the '90's . Let's just focus on two non-replicated picks made more than 10 years ago.
Shanahan 2nd overall

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03-08-2013, 09:53 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by jfb392 View Post
When will the stupid Detroit legacy finally die?
The last great Detroit steals, Datsyuk and Zetterberg, were selected almost 15 years ago.
The world has completely changed since then and so has scouting; everyone can talk to everyone with ease, travel is easier than ever, and you can even watch players without leaving your house.
Furthermore, kids are being identified earlier than ever and players being ignored to the extent of a Datsyuk is now more unlikely than ever.
Even kids with flaws (such as size) are still properly identified if they have the skill level.

Detroit's drafting post-lockout (2005) shouldn't be ignored.
Their best bet for a top six forward seems to be Gustav Nyquist, who while good, does not look to be at the same level as some of their earlier steals.
They have the ability to find complementary players later, just like any good team.
They do have the ability to find some guys with elite elements, though: elite noodlers like Jurco and Tatar, guys that are elite at taking bad penalties like Frk.

Honestly, can someone give me a list of elite skaters that were mid to late round steals in the past decade of so?
Jamie Benn is the only one I can think of, who is borderline elite.

it's over some peoples heads i guess

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03-08-2013, 09:57 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by SlugLife978 View Post
FWIW, Miller was drafted in the 5th round.
And these are the awesome picks made before Miller:
20 Buffalo Barrett Heisten
35 Buffalo Milan Bartovic
55 Buffalo Doug Janik
64 Buffalo Mike Zigomanis
73 Buffalo Tim Preston
117 Buffalo Karel Mosovsky

and the goalies taken before Miller that the Sabres could've taken:
5 138 Buffalo Ryan Miller
5 133 Los Angeles Jean-Francois Nogues
4 107 Montreal Evan Lindsay
4 99 Atlanta Rob Zepp
3 92 Los Angeles Cory Campbell
3 86 Pittsburgh Sebastien Caron
3 81 Edmonton Adam Hauser
3 80 Florida Jean-Francois Laniel
3 79 NY Rangers Johan Asplund
3 77 Calgary Craig Anderson
3 67 Tampa Bay Evgeny Konstantinov
2 65 Nashville Jan Lasak
2 48 Ottawa Simon Lajeunesse
2 40 Florida Alex Auld
1 27 New Jersey Ari Ahonen
1 22 Philadelphia Maxime Ouellet
1 6 Nashville Brian Finley

Not a strong goalie class in 1999, and I'm too tired to look at who else they could've drafted that they passed on that is better than what we've got now.

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03-08-2013, 10:26 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
so ignore all the teams that have had success drafting high (chi, pit, LA, etc)
and instead point to the even rarer team that has had good success with a few late rounders.

makes sense
Pittsburgh got Crosby and Malkin, that is an exception. That and they were bumped from the first round last year.

Chicago took 50 odd years to get a cup, and I'm pretty sure not all of there players were drafted. Infact I'm sure I recognised Campbell...

LA had a combination, but I think their most successful players were actually trade. Well lets face it, it was the WC version of the Flyers.

We could look at Washington, Edmonton, Florida or Columbus. There is no guaranteed path, but wanting to be a loser will get you one thing: no hockey team.

Detroit are an exception, thats true. I'd wager it is one of the best run organisations in all of professional sports (not a statement I can back up however). Does it mean we can't model ourselves on them? No, quite the opposite imho. Detroit, NJD, Boston, SJ, Montreal probably aren't bad teams to aim for and improve on.

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03-08-2013, 10:27 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Whammer View Post
And these are the awesome picks made before Miller:
20 Buffalo Barrett Heisten
35 Buffalo Milan Bartovic
55 Buffalo Doug Janik
64 Buffalo Mike Zigomanis
73 Buffalo Tim Preston
117 Buffalo Karel Mosovsky

and the goalies taken before Miller that the Sabres could've taken:
5 138 Buffalo Ryan Miller
5 133 Los Angeles Jean-Francois Nogues
4 107 Montreal Evan Lindsay
4 99 Atlanta Rob Zepp
3 92 Los Angeles Cory Campbell
3 86 Pittsburgh Sebastien Caron
3 81 Edmonton Adam Hauser
3 80 Florida Jean-Francois Laniel
3 79 NY Rangers Johan Asplund
3 77 Calgary Craig Anderson
3 67 Tampa Bay Evgeny Konstantinov
2 65 Nashville Jan Lasak
2 48 Ottawa Simon Lajeunesse
2 40 Florida Alex Auld
1 27 New Jersey Ari Ahonen
1 22 Philadelphia Maxime Ouellet
1 6 Nashville Brian Finley

Not a strong goalie class in 1999, and I'm too tired to look at who else they could've drafted that they passed on that is better than what we've got now.
1999 was an awful draft class.

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Old
03-08-2013, 10:42 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by RazielMoshman View Post
Pittsburgh got Crosby and Malkin, that is an exception. That and they were bumped from the first round last year.

Chicago took 50 odd years to get a cup, and I'm pretty sure not all of there players were drafted. Infact I'm sure I recognised Campbell...

LA had a combination, but I think their most successful players were actually trade. Well lets face it, it was the WC version of the Flyers.


We could look at Washington, Edmonton, Florida or Columbus. There is no guaranteed path, but wanting to be a loser will get you one thing: no hockey team.

Detroit are an exception, thats true. I'd wager it is one of the best run organisations in all of professional sports (not a statement I can back up however). Does it mean we can't model ourselves on them? No, quite the opposite imho. Detroit, NJD, Boston, SJ, Montreal probably aren't bad teams to aim for and improve on.
Wrong. You are ignoring a large cast of players on each example above.

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03-08-2013, 10:57 AM
  #87
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I think people are forgetting that the Sabres already have some insane talent on this roster that just hasn't hit their primes yet. Hodgson and Myers provide a foundation that a majority of teams do not have. A potential top line center (Who's development is going amazing) and a potential franchise D-man both in their early 20s. How many teams can say they have that? Both of whom have proven they can play in this league.

Then they have a prospect like Grigorenko who damn near everyone on this board wanted to tank for by the half way point last season. Oh, and there's that kid Armia. And a bunch of GOOD D prospects.

I'm not sure a top 5 pick is needed for this team to take the next step. There are some solid building blocks already in place. A top 5 pick would look sexy in their pipeline, but there is some serious talent that should being blooming soon. They just need to build around them.

Let's be honest, though, this team should be picking top 7 ish. I want a scoring winger.

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03-08-2013, 10:58 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post

it's over some peoples heads i guess
I think it's more likely that many just don't want to acknowledge that it's incredibly unlikely to have the success that Detroit used to have in the draft and be successful on the ice these days.

I'd guess that without their steals of last millennium, Detroit isn't even a playoff team and their vaunted farm system is no longer viewed as such when the players in it are forced to finally play and end up nothing more than average players.

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Originally Posted by RazielMoshman View Post
Pittsburgh got Crosby and Malkin, that is an exception. That and they were bumped from the first round last year.
And they still won the Cup and have one of the best teams year in year out in the league.

Also, hate to say it yet again, but a Crosby comparable isn't too far off from being available..

Quote:
Chicago took 50 odd years to get a cup, and I'm pretty sure not all of there players were drafted. Infact I'm sure I recognised Campbell...
Every winning team is supplemented by free agent signings, but if you can't recognize the importance of Kane and Toews on that team, you're not paying close enough attention.

Quote:
LA had a combination, but I think their most successful players were actually trade. Well lets face it, it was the WC version of the Flyers.
Their most successful players were not acquired via trade.
They were complements to higher picks like Brown, Kopitar, and Doughty and mid round steal Quick.

Doughty played like the potential Norris defenseman that he can be in that run and Kopitar was their prototypical big, do everything center.

Quote:
We could look at Washington, Edmonton, Florida or Columbus. There is no guaranteed path, but wanting to be a loser will get you one thing: no hockey team.
A few years ago, no one would have Washington in this group.
They have talent but their most talented player has regressed and their whole team has a cancerous feel to them.
They shouldn't be discounted just because they haven't won a Cup yet as it did lead to plenty of success in other areas.

Edmonton is still up in the air.
None of their big talents are even finished with their ELC's.

Columbus and Florida are terrible, period.
They do not put the money required into their operations to win and thus make terrible decisions in every area.
Same goes for the Isles.

Quote:
Detroit are an exception, thats true. I'd wager it is one of the best run organisations in all of professional sports (not a statement I can back up however). Does it mean we can't model ourselves on them? No, quite the opposite imho. Detroit, NJD, Boston, SJ, Montreal probably aren't bad teams to aim for and improve on.
Teams like Detroit and New Jersey are of a past era.
You're already seeing them go from elite to mediocre as their old advantages are nullified.
I wouldn't be surprised if both of them miss the playoffs as soon as this year and it likely won't be that long until they are no longer spoken of as they are now.

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03-08-2013, 10:59 AM
  #89
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My point wasn't that low picks always is better or that we will find a Datsyuk or Zetterberg in the late rounds.

My point was that i rather have a team that tries to win the Stanley Cup every year and end up missing out of playoff rather than have one year where they are tanking because they want i high draftpick and then we suddenly have a superstar who will take us to the playoff, i don't like it and i feel it's against the ideal of sports that you want to lose on purpose, like the Swedish national team against the Slovaks in the last groupgame in the Olympics 2006.

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03-08-2013, 11:26 AM
  #90
RazielMoshman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfb392 View Post
I think it's more likely that many just don't want to acknowledge that it's incredibly unlikely to have the success that Detroit used to have in the draft and be successful on the ice these days.

I'd guess that without their steals of last millennium, Detroit isn't even a playoff team and their vaunted farm system is no longer viewed as such when the players in it are forced to finally play and end up nothing more than average players.

And they still won the Cup and have one of the best teams year in year out in the league.

Also, hate to say it yet again, but a Crosby comparable isn't too far off from being available..

Every winning team is supplemented by free agent signings, but if you can't recognize the importance of Kane and Toews on that team, you're not paying close enough attention.

Their most successful players were not acquired via trade.
They were complements to higher picks like Brown, Kopitar, and Doughty and mid round steal Quick.

Doughty played like the potential Norris defenseman that he can be in that run and Kopitar was their prototypical big, do everything center.

A few years ago, no one would have Washington in this group.
They have talent but their most talented player has regressed and their whole team has a cancerous feel to them.
They shouldn't be discounted just because they haven't won a Cup yet as it did lead to plenty of success in other areas.

Edmonton is still up in the air.
None of their big talents are even finished with their ELC's.

Columbus and Florida are terrible, period.
They do not put the money required into their operations to win and thus make terrible decisions in every area.
Same goes for the Isles.

Teams like Detroit and New Jersey are of a past era.
You're already seeing them go from elite to mediocre as their old advantages are nullified.
I wouldn't be surprised if both of them miss the playoffs as soon as this year and it likely won't be that long until they are no longer spoken of as they are now.
My point is the draft isn't some holy cup guarantee, we don't have to completely rely on the draft for our team. We've done that for our current team and look where it has got us.

We need a mix of free agents and decent drafts to succeed. LA wouldn't have won the cup without their combination of both, same goes for every team to have won. I think the pieces we need are best available through trade, not draft.

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03-08-2013, 11:56 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RazielMoshman View Post
My point is the draft isn't some holy cup guarantee, we don't have to completely rely on the draft for our team. We've done that for our current team and look where it has got us.

We need a mix of free agents and decent drafts to succeed. LA wouldn't have won the cup without their combination of both, same goes for every team to have won. I think the pieces we need are best available through trade, not draft.
We do have a mix of free agents and "decent" drafts. Are we succeeding?

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03-08-2013, 12:01 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by RazielMoshman View Post
My point is the draft isn't some holy cup guarantee, we don't have to completely rely on the draft for our team. We've done that for our current team and look where it has got us.

We need a mix of free agents and decent drafts to succeed. LA wouldn't have won the cup without their combination of both, same goes for every team to have won. I think the pieces we need are best available through trade, not draft.
Everyone always pivots to this talking point... THAT'S NEVER BEEN ESPOUSED BY ANYONE.

NO ONE thinks the draft is a guarantee of anything

But NO unbiased, practical person could look at the NHL today, and NOT believe that the probability of building a contender is increased by hitting a few home runs in the 1st round. And your probability of hitting a home run in the first round is increased the higher you draft.

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03-08-2013, 12:02 PM
  #93
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Drafting high is NOT the only way
Drafting high is NOT a guarantee of anything

But drafting high is still the best route to contending for the current Buffalo Sabres

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03-08-2013, 01:20 PM
  #94
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Kinda surprised about the Enroth lovefest. He was giving out rebounds last night like they were holiday cookies. A bunch of his great saves were the result of his glorious rebounds.

Maybe everybody expected him to let in 6 or 7, so in comparison, he did quite well.

Also, I love RJ, but he was so overly reactive to everything Enroth did, that it sounded like he was talking to/about a 2 yr old who just learned how to feed himself.

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03-08-2013, 01:45 PM
  #95
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Kinda surprised about the Enroth lovefest. He was giving out rebounds last night like they were holiday cookies. A bunch of his great saves were the result of his glorious rebounds.

Maybe everybody expected him to let in 6 or 7, so in comparison, he did quite well.

Also, I love RJ, but he was so overly reactive to everything Enroth did, that it sounded like he was talking to/about a 2 yr old who just learned how to feed himself.
Glad I'm not the only one that feels this way, although I'll admit I didn't see all of the game as I couldn't resist switching to some NHL quality hockey, rather than the crap that is the Devils and Sabres.

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03-08-2013, 01:53 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Squantosawuss View Post
Kinda surprised about the Enroth lovefest. He was giving out rebounds last night like they were holiday cookies. A bunch of his great saves were the result of his glorious rebounds.

Maybe everybody expected him to let in 6 or 7, so in comparison, he did quite well.

Also, I love RJ, but he was so overly reactive to everything Enroth did, that it sounded like he was talking to/about a 2 yr old who just learned how to feed himself.
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Originally Posted by jfb392 View Post
Glad I'm not the only one that feels this way, although I'll admit I didn't see all of the game as I couldn't resist switching to some NHL quality hockey, rather than the crap that is the Devils and Sabres.
Totally agree with both of you...his rebound control was awful...I guess he can get a little break since he hasn't played in so long...

And RJ was like the face announcer at a WWE event in regards to Enroth, it was like he was trying to sell him on us...

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03-08-2013, 02:48 PM
  #97
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Holy crap this thread went off the rails.

Anyways. Did I read correctly Ennis got a fighting major?

The ugly

At a practice this morning to get ready for our state tournament and get the girls used to the rink here. One of my players accidentally clipped my skate from behind. It sent me flying backwards and I hit the back of my head on the ice. Also smashed my elbow which is killing me. I may miss our first game to go to the ER for a precautionary check up.

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03-08-2013, 03:38 PM
  #98
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Holy crap this thread went off the rails.

Anyways. Did I read correctly Ennis got a fighting major?

The ugly

At a practice this morning to get ready for our state tournament and get the girls used to the rink here. One of my players accidentally clipped my skate from behind. It sent me flying backwards and I hit the back of my head on the ice. Also smashed my elbow which is killing me. I may miss our first game to go to the ER for a precautionary check up.
Helmet on, like USA hockey mandates?

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03-08-2013, 04:13 PM
  #99
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I have made this point before: since the lockout, no team has won the cup without multiple picks above the 4th overall. Outside of Vanek (#5 overall) the Sabres' only top 10 pick in the past 20+ years has been Bustmuffin. We need a top 3 pick.

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03-08-2013, 04:32 PM
  #100
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Holy crap this thread went off the rails.

Anyways. Did I read correctly Ennis got a fighting major?

The ugly

At a practice this morning to get ready for our state tournament and get the girls used to the rink here. One of my players accidentally clipped my skate from behind. It sent me flying backwards and I hit the back of my head on the ice. Also smashed my elbow which is killing me. I may miss our first game to go to the ER for a precautionary check up.
Wow. Not good....

I wish I had a dollar for everytime I was submarined by a mini mite and came out on the worse end. I stepped on a puck once in a midget practice and went down right on the noggin...started to wear a helmet after that one.

And then they made it mandatory.

Best of luck on recovering and in the State tourney!

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