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Trade Kessel?

View Poll Results: Should Phil Kessel be traded?
Yes 194 51.60%
No 182 48.40%
Voters: 376. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-09-2013, 10:10 AM
  #651
Pi
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Why don't people want to trade Kessel?

I guess because he puts up points? Why do the points he gets matter at all?

Tell me one thing Kessel is good at besides the points?

Backcheck? He acts like he just has no gas and skates slowly near one of the boards.

Forecheck? Is this a joke? He'll never go after the puck, he wants it on his stick. He's never going to hit somebody...the guys who count the hits probably feel bad for him and just give him a free hit here and there.

Going for the rebound? You're kidding...Kessel shoots the puck and skates right away because he wants no part of trying to get a loose rebound because those tough D's might just drop him to the ice while he's trying to score.

Defense? Yeah, he plays good defense, if we forget what it means.

Board battles? No. Kessel is just too good for that.

Can we face the truth: Kessel's playmaking and sniping aside, he brings NOTHING to the table.

How quickly did the Bruins trade him? They lost a 36 goal scorer...and didn't get any roster player back for him but they still traded him away.

We will get a good return for Kessel because what he does, he does good. He can easily fetch more than Jeff Carter and Staal...

I am hoping Nonis knows that Kessel is not worth giving 8 year deals to...

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03-09-2013, 10:13 AM
  #652
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Originally Posted by Stephen View Post
I really like Phil Kessel, but in a lot of ways, that trade shouldn't have happened for both teams.

Basically, in hindsight, we could have used the depth and quality in Seguin and Hamilton, two Toronto boys to boot. Don't need to cover our side much more.

And even though Boston won a cup in 2011, their fans are in some ways probably pissed that a budding homegrown prospect would walk out on them to go to a division rival. Imagine Nazem Kadri ditching us for Montreal this summer...

And on the ice, the Bruins have been busy trying to convert center Tyler Seguin into a scoring RW who uses his speed to drive wide to the net. Sound like someone familiar?
I don't mind what we gave up for Kessel, I just feel that our first round picks could have gotten us a more competitive player than Kessel.

Kessel is a one dimensional player...when he isn't scoring, he's not doing anything.

Burke's biggest mistakes:

1) Overestimating his team...he though he would be a hero here when the Leafs made the playoffs in the first two years he was GM.
2) Not firing Wilson...if he had fired Wilson, I highly doubt we would have given up Seguin.
3) Kessel trade.

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03-09-2013, 10:15 AM
  #653
BudMaster17
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Trade any player, it all depends on the return. Bottom line.

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03-09-2013, 10:18 AM
  #654
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Originally Posted by BudMaster17 View Post
Trade any player, it all depends on the return. Bottom line.
Absolutely. Kessel is a touchy subject for some though. Understandably so

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03-09-2013, 10:18 AM
  #655
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Originally Posted by TonsofPuppies View Post
Name her Nonis to commemorate that great moment.
Her middle names will be "George Cope" - The Savior of Hockey in Toronto

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03-09-2013, 10:18 AM
  #656
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
This is the most concise/accurate description of him ive seen.

Ill take a team built around depth at centre with physical two-way wingers good for 50-60 points over a team built around being thin down the middle with a guy like Kessel as our "franchise" forward.

Considering how fans of other teams have offered up decent proposals, and that GM deals tend to be better than what you'd expect from opposing fans, Im sure there's a deal or multiple deals out there that could make sense.

He's not a guy you build around, he'll disappear when we need him most against a team like Boston in the playoffs, and he's gonna get overpaid on his next contract.
Thank you.

I love how bipolar everyone's perception is. It's not possible to recognize what a player does for the team and admit what that player also doesn't do -- you have to either hate everything about the player or love him unconditionally. I recognize that Kessel's playmaking abilities and shot help put up points; but I also realize how often he bails out on any play where physical contact is involved and how he is unwilling to fight through adversity to get scoring chances. If Kessel did this, he would be a perennial top-scorer in the league -- unfortunate, he doesn't.

Kessel put up about 20 more points than Bergeron last season. But who do you think you would win more games with?

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03-09-2013, 10:19 AM
  #657
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Originally Posted by BudMaster17 View Post
Trade any player, it all depends on the return. Bottom line.
The rational response.

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03-09-2013, 10:23 AM
  #658
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi View Post
Why don't people want to trade Kessel?

I guess because he puts up points? Why do the points he gets matter at all?

Tell me one thing Kessel is good at besides the points?

Backcheck? He acts like he just has no gas and skates slowly near one of the boards.

Forecheck? Is this a joke? He'll never go after the puck, he wants it on his stick. He's never going to hit somebody...the guys who count the hits probably feel bad for him and just give him a free hit here and there.

Going for the rebound? You're kidding...Kessel shoots the puck and skates right away because he wants no part of trying to get a loose rebound because those tough D's might just drop him to the ice while he's trying to score.

Defense? Yeah, he plays good defense, if we forget what it means.

Board battles? No. Kessel is just too good for that.

Can we face the truth: Kessel's playmaking and sniping aside, he brings NOTHING to the table.

How quickly did the Bruins trade him? They lost a 36 goal scorer...and didn't get any roster player back for him but they still traded him away.

We will get a good return for Kessel because what he does, he does good. He can easily fetch more than Jeff Carter and Staal...

I am hoping Nonis knows that Kessel is not worth giving 8 year deals to...
This is what is so hilarious. His points don't matter (for some bizarre reason) and he's a 1D, creampuff player .... but he'll easily fetch more than Carter and Staal.

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03-09-2013, 10:27 AM
  #659
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Originally Posted by Leafy Undergrowth View Post
This is what is so hilarious. His points don't matter (for some bizarre reason) and he's a 1D, creampuff player .... but he'll easily fetch more than Carter and Staal.
Yeah both of those players are superior to Kessel

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03-09-2013, 10:29 AM
  #660
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Originally Posted by BudMaster17 View Post
Trade any player, it all depends on the return. Bottom line.
That's probably where the discussion should head then.

For the people that want to trade him, give some specifics on what you are expecting in return for this "one dimensional creampuff"? What value do you put on Kessel?

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03-09-2013, 10:45 AM
  #661
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Originally Posted by Leafy Undergrowth View Post
That's probably where the discussion should head then.

For the people that want to trade him, give some specifics on what you are expecting in return for this "one dimensional creampuff"? What value do you put on Kessel?
The kind of deal the Leafs should be looking for will be similar to that made by Columbus at last year’s deadline when Jeff Carter, then 27, was moved to the L.A. Kings for 25-year-old defenceman Jack Johnson and a first-round pick.

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03-09-2013, 10:49 AM
  #662
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IMO who the hell cares if Kessel can play defense or not. He's effective at what he's supposed to do. That's score goals, I'm pretty sure all the coaches and front office knows defense isn't his forte. Our team is playing well and just because 1 guy can't play defense that well doesn't mean we should get rid of him. Especially since he's brought excitement to this team again. I don't know about you, but when ever Kessel has the puck I get excited, especially on the PP. Keep him and Sign Perry. Then maybe trade Kessel for a #1 C. But having extra depth never hurts. I rather have both Perry and Kessel.

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03-09-2013, 10:52 AM
  #663
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No way in heck I would trade Kessel except for an overwhelming offer. He is a damn good player and it is very unlikely that we will get a return on him that will be better or equal to what he brings to the team.

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03-09-2013, 10:56 AM
  #664
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi View Post
Why don't people want to trade Kessel?

I guess because he puts up points? Why do the points he gets matter at all?

Tell me one thing Kessel is good at besides the points?

Backcheck? He acts like he just has no gas and skates slowly near one of the boards.

Forecheck? Is this a joke? He'll never go after the puck, he wants it on his stick. He's never going to hit somebody...the guys who count the hits probably feel bad for him and just give him a free hit here and there.

Going for the rebound? You're kidding...Kessel shoots the puck and skates right away because he wants no part of trying to get a loose rebound because those tough D's might just drop him to the ice while he's trying to score.

Defense? Yeah, he plays good defense, if we forget what it means.

Board battles? No. Kessel is just too good for that.

Can we face the truth: Kessel's playmaking and sniping aside, he brings NOTHING to the table.

How quickly did the Bruins trade him? They lost a 36 goal scorer...and didn't get any roster player back for him but they still traded him away.

We will get a good return for Kessel because what he does, he does good. He can easily fetch more than Jeff Carter and Staal...

I am hoping Nonis knows that Kessel is not worth giving 8 year deals to...
And then had to go and replace him with the inferior Horton...

Trading Kessel would be a massive mistake. It would be beyond bad. He's not just good offensively, he's the best player we have. Take him away and the rest of the team struggles a whole lot more to score.

I am hoping Nonis is a little smarter than some fans on here.

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03-09-2013, 10:58 AM
  #665
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Originally Posted by francis246 View Post
IMO who the hell cares if Kessel can play defense or not. He's effective at what he's supposed to do. That's score goals, I'm pretty sure all the coaches and front office knows defense isn't his forte. Our team is playing well and just because 1 guy can't play defense that well doesn't mean we should get rid of him. Especially since he's brought excitement to this team again. I don't know about you, but when ever Kessel has the puck I get excited, especially on the PP. Keep him and Sign Perry. Then maybe trade Kessel for a #1 C. But having extra depth never hurts. I rather have both Perry and Kessel.
There are over 100 players in the league with more goals than Kessel currently.

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03-09-2013, 11:03 AM
  #666
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Kessels offense comes from very very very specific plays. If those very specific conditions aren't met he is absolutely useless and a liability. He is one of the easiest "first line" players to shut down. Wilson modified his useless system to an even more useless player. His supporters (Burke, Wilson) are now gone and most likely kessel will be gone soon too. Players who look like they're offended EVERY time they get hit DO NOT belong in hockey.

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03-09-2013, 11:05 AM
  #667
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Originally Posted by TonsofPuppies View Post
Carter is a natural center. He just plays wing because the Kings are deep at C, much like Seguin on the Bruins. Kopitar is obviously the #1C, and M. Richards is the #2C. Richards is obviously a fantastic two way player and more defensively responsible than Carter (not to say that Carter is terrible), so it makes sense for him to take the C position over Carter. You're obviously not going to waste Carter's talent on the 3 or 4th lines, so that's why he plays wing.
He plays wing because that's the position his game is more suited for. Kings specifically acquired him for goal scoring, when they were struggling to score goals the entire season until he arrived. He may be drafted as a center, yes, but he's a shoot first player who doesn't add much in terms playmaking. We all know how it turned out when he played center last (blue jackets).Anyway if i were to trade Kessel for a center i'd be looking for a playmaking center, something we desperately need, so we can dispose of tunnel vision Grabovski.

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03-09-2013, 11:13 AM
  #668
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Originally Posted by TonsofPuppies View Post
Carter is a natural center. He just plays wing because the Kings are deep at C, much like Seguin on the Bruins. Kopitar is obviously the #1C, and M. Richards is the #2C. Richards is obviously a fantastic two way player and more defensively responsible than Carter (not to say that Carter is terrible), so it makes sense for him to take the C position over Carter. You're obviously not going to waste Carter's talent on the 3 or 4th lines, so that's why he plays wing.
Thanks, beat me to it. Carter would easily be our number one C.

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03-09-2013, 11:14 AM
  #669
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Originally Posted by theIceWookie View Post
And then had to go and replace him with the inferior Horton...

Trading Kessel would be a massive mistake. It would be beyond bad. He's not just good offensively, he's the best player we have. Take him away and the rest of the team struggles a whole lot more to score.

I am hoping Nonis is a little smarter than some fans on here.
And then won the Cup. Goals don't equal Stanley Cups.

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03-09-2013, 11:17 AM
  #670
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There are over 100 players in the league with more goals than Kessel currently.
What about last year? And the last three years? How many of those players have put up multiple 30 goal seasons with little to no offensive support and led their team in points three years running?

I know Leaf fans are sensational and love "what have you done for me recently" thinking, but you honestly can't be tat ignorant?

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03-09-2013, 11:17 AM
  #671
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And then won the Cup. Goals don't equal Stanley Cups.
After acquiring a player to help replace the goals they lost with Kessel...

And Boston was top 5 in goals that year...coincidently the year they traded Kessel, they were LAST IN THE LEAGUE IN GOALS.

Yes, tell me how goals don't win cups...

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03-09-2013, 11:24 AM
  #672
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He certainly creates far more goals than he causes.
He has never been a good +- player even on the bruins (so the poor defence can't just be pinned on bozak who could also improve his game). Kessel has only had one pro year as a plus player - that is only one year has his line scored more goals then his line has given up.

And on the bruins two of his three years on the bruins were negative. +- is more a team measure of defense rather then a player specific but to date his lines are scored on more often then they score. This is not a player you build a stanley cup winning team around - just ask Boston. Their +- and GA improved dramatically when Kessel was traded.


Now all is not lost. Kessel is not that good defensively unless you pair him with 8.5M getzlaf type center. That would be a glorious first line 8.5M #1C, 7M #1Winger + 5.5M lupul. That is 1/3 of your cap space just so you fully utilize Kessel (and lupul) properly since defence on that line is suspect. The other option is that Kessel gets serious and improves his defence to at least league average in the off season. But at this point Kessel trajectory is more like a Kovalev.

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03-09-2013, 11:31 AM
  #673
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Originally Posted by theIceWookie View Post
What about last year? And the last three years? How many of those players have put up multiple 30 goal seasons with little to no offensive support and led their team in points three years running?

I know Leaf fans are sensational and love "what have you done for me recently" thinking, but you honestly can't be tat ignorant?
That was under Wilson's run-and-gun style of hockey. Though I acknowledge that Kessel is slumping a bit in the goal-department this year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theIceWookie View Post
After acquiring a player to help replace the goals they lost with Kessel...

And Boston was top 5 in goals that year...coincidently the year they traded Kessel, they were LAST IN THE LEAGUE IN GOALS.

Yes, tell me how goals don't win cups...
Obviously you need goals but you need to prevent goals as well. If Kessel isn't producing, and isn't preventing goals, then what is he doing?

Removing Kessel from the line-up doesn't mean you give up all his points. You replace him with a player who can play well defensively, is harder to play against and isn't afraid of physical contact.

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03-09-2013, 11:36 AM
  #674
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That was under Wilson's run-and-gun style of hockey. Though I acknowledge that Kessel is slumping a bit in the goal-department this year.



Obviously you need goals but you need to prevent goals as well. If Kessel isn't producing, and isn't preventing goals, then what is he doing?

Removing Kessel from the line-up doesn't mean you give up all his points. You replace him with a player who can play well defensively, is hard to play against and isn't afraid of physical contact. And who can put up decent points.
And who are you going to replace him with?

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03-09-2013, 11:46 AM
  #675
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And who are you going to replace him with?
Who did the bruins replace him with in that year? They acquired Horton via trade and had internal options like Ryder and Lucic etc.


Even then people are over estimating the importance of Kessel. Look at the wild who added Parise and Suter. Even with Parise who is sound defensively the Wild haven't overwhelmed this year or even moved up much in the standings. The leafs will lose on offense (goals for) but standings win there won't be much change because the goal differential will improve (they will give up fewer goals).


Also a good model for Kessel is Parise in terms of defence, forecheck and physicality. Kessel is more gifted offensively and has a larger frame. That said, Parise matches and can beat kessel's offense with "harder work" in addition to skill. And Kessel is sub par in the other aspects of the game. As an incomplete player, Kessel contract will force the center or other players to compensate for his lack of physicality and lack of defensive awareness.

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