HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Trade Kessel?

View Poll Results: Should Phil Kessel be traded?
Yes 194 51.60%
No 182 48.40%
Voters: 376. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-12-2013, 10:15 AM
  #776
pspot
Registered User
 
pspot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Kitchener
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,794
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamond Joe Quimby View Post
...based on?
for me, Stats and watching him play

his size, speed and skill jumps out every time i've seen him play. thats in addition to his two way play which is also impressive evident by his +/- and situational play. i.e. being on the ice to close out a lead against the Leafs

Kessel is fast and has a great wrist shot, he is improving other areas of his game but Seguin is already the better player and could be a scary player if he can keep it together/focus

pspot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 10:17 AM
  #777
sommervr
Registered User
 
sommervr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,662
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diamond Joe Quimby View Post
...based on?
Key player on the top line of the best team in the east, Stanley cup, plus-minus, Corsi, fenwick, QoC and any other stat you could dream up.

Plus my own eyeballs from watching both teams this year.

sommervr is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 11:13 AM
  #778
LeafsJaysRaptors
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 82
vCash: 500
Boston looks like they got the better of the trade, why don't people move on. Why don't we focus on the Phaneuf trade? Jeez.. some of you must be very difficult to be around with all your negativity.


Last edited by LeafsJaysRaptors: 03-12-2013 at 11:23 AM.
LeafsJaysRaptors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 11:18 AM
  #779
Deebo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,348
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sommervr View Post
Hamilton looks like be could be a top five defenceman someday.
Top 5? In the league?

Deebo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 11:23 AM
  #780
ACC1224
Hate the Patriots
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,206
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy Undergrowth View Post
Not even remotely close to the worst trade of all time. Gimme a break.
Most realize this.

ACC1224 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 11:41 AM
  #781
Chandrashekhar Limit
Gimme your # gurl
 
Chandrashekhar Limit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Milky Way
Country: Canada
Posts: 16,927
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by sommervr View Post
However right now Seguin is a much more effective player than Kessel and Hamilton looks like be could be a top five defenceman someday.
Hamilton is already a top 5 dman on the Bruins.

Chandrashekhar Limit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 12:49 PM
  #782
leach11
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 181
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pspot View Post
for me, Stats and watching him play

his size, speed and skill jumps out every time i've seen him play. thats in addition to his two way play which is also impressive evident by his +/- and situational play. i.e. being on the ice to close out a lead against the Leafs

Kessel is fast and has a great wrist shot, he is improving other areas of his game but Seguin is already the better player and could be a scary player if he can keep it together/focus
Kessel is faster, has a better shot, and is a better passer than Seguin currently is. Seguin is better than Kessel defensively, but he also plays on Boston who are one of the best defensive teams in the league meaning that any defensive deficiencies he has are unlikely to be as easily exposed as that of Kessel. Also, +/- is a terrible stat (ie. Mark Fraser is one the best players in the league going off +/-)

leach11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 03:55 PM
  #783
The CyNick
Follow @ TheCyNick
 
The CyNick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,729
vCash: 500
Lol. Watch any Leafs vs Bruins game and try to find Kessel. And then notice how Seguin is likely wrecking us.

We got a great one dimensional player, and we possibly gave up two franchise players plus another guy.

The CyNick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 04:00 PM
  #784
egd27
#freethebigpicture
 
egd27's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Toronto
Posts: 5,126
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by sommervr View Post
Nobody is saying Seguin would have carried the leafs to the promised land. However right now Seguin is a much more effective player than Kessel and Hamilton looks like be could be a top five defenceman someday.

As for getting over it this is a fan base that still talks about Barilko. Personally I am still not over the Tiger Williams trade. Perhaps you are new at this?
This will go down with the worst of the Ballard trades and that is saying something
As far as Kessel goes he will have the trade albatross around his neck. To further the nautical theme I think he will be a full out Jonah if we get blown out first round or don't make the playoffs.

If Bozak is not here I think there is zero chance he resigns so Kessel has even more overhead than his bad defence.
Darryl Sittler for Rich Costello, Ken Strong and a 2nd
Russ Courtnall for John Kordic

I could go on but I think I'll stop there.

egd27 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 04:08 PM
  #785
Chandrashekhar Limit
Gimme your # gurl
 
Chandrashekhar Limit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Milky Way
Country: Canada
Posts: 16,927
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by The CyNick View Post
Lol. Watch any Leafs vs Bruins game and try to find Kessel. And then notice how Seguin is likely wrecking us.

We got a great one dimensional player, and we possibly gave up two franchise players plus another guy.
Do you guys ever realize that there are about 5 other scoring threats on the Bruins, 3-4 of which are a grinder/scoring mix? In that kind of a scenario, a player like Seguin has a great chance to succeed, just like Kessel did in his Boston days.

I'm not defending Kessel here. What I'm saying is Seguin playing well against us doesn't necessarily mean he's not one dimensional. He isn't too hot about physical play either. He's not as soft as Kessel, but I would put him in the soft category.

Chandrashekhar Limit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 05:34 PM
  #786
HockeyThoughts
Delivering The Truth
 
HockeyThoughts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,920
vCash: 1550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chandrashekhar Limit View Post
Do you guys ever realize that there are about 5 other scoring threats on the Bruins, 3-4 of which are a grinder/scoring mix? In that kind of a scenario, a player like Seguin has a great chance to succeed, just like Kessel did in his Boston days.

I'm not defending Kessel here. What I'm saying is Seguin playing well against us doesn't necessarily mean he's not one dimensional. He isn't too hot about physical play either. He's not as soft as Kessel, but I would put him in the soft category.
Good post, I'd also like to add..

It's funny that we all marvel at the physicality and defensive prowess of the Boston Bruins from top to bottom, as well as the immense depth that is found throughout their roster. However, it seems like certain posters don't factor in the immediate effects found playing on a team with 2 very competitive first lines, or especially in Tyler Seguin's case playing on a line with a Selke winning center and a young physical LW on pace for 44G.

Lucic-Krejci-Horton
Marchand-Bergeron-Seguin

That 2nd line is arguably better than what we have been icing as our first line since Joffrey Lupul went down (JVR-Bozak-Kessel) in terms of physicality, two-way play and recently, offensive play as well.

It's sad that people like to pretend that the conditions of a team or on a line don't have an effect on the numbers said player produces or the overall efficiency of their game. You don't think Phil Kessel would greatly benefit from playing with a center capable of playing shutdown defense while posting near-PPG offensive production?

At this juncture:

Phil Kessel >/= Tyler Seguin

Phil Kessel is considerably more proven, and is arguably the better overall offensive player at this point in time. They are both rather nonexistent physically, and I have not been particularly impressed with the defensive play of either player. They both rely on speed as their primary attribute and are equally good goal scorers as playmakers. Tyler Seguin on the other hand is younger, has shown an upward trajectory in development under a very tough coach and on a winning team, and arguably (I don't subscribe to this theory this but some do), has a "better compete level."

HockeyThoughts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 07:03 PM
  #787
Snow Dog
Victorious
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: GTA
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,155
vCash: 500
I wouldn't trade Kessel straight up for Seguin today,maybe someday.

I'd even think twice if the Bruins threw in Hamilton.

But a trade for a guy like Perry would happen without a second thought.

Snow Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 07:08 PM
  #788
pcruz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Vaughan
Country: Portugal
Posts: 1,681
vCash: 500
Let's play a hypothetical game here:

Say we have Stamkos in our line-up in place of Kessel, playing with Bozak as his set up man, and Lupul playing as the only other offensive threat on the team. Does he score 45?

I mean sure, 15 goals is a lot. But you have to consider the loss of St. Louis, a hart winner, art ross winner, and someone with 50 assists per season with Stamkos. Also note the loss of Lecavalier, who while not on Stamkos' line, is definitely someone opposing teams have to consider a major threat every game.

Then, if you really don't know whether Stamkos could get to the 45 goal mark on this team, reflect on your thoughts of someone who hasn't gotten less than 30 in his 4 years as a Leaf and had 37 playing with Bozak as his set up man and Lupul (same line) as his other main threat.


Food for thought.

pcruz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 07:14 PM
  #789
Snow Dog
Victorious
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: GTA
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,155
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcruz View Post
Let's play a hypothetical game here:

Say we have Stamkos in our line-up in place of Kessel, playing with Bozak as his set up man, and Lupul playing as the only other offensive threat on the team. Does he score 45?

I mean sure, 15 goals is a lot. But you have to consider the loss of St. Louis, a hart winner, art ross winner, and someone with 50 assists per season with Stamkos. Also note the loss of Lecavalier, who while not on Stamkos' line, is definitely someone opposing teams have to consider a major threat every game.

Then, if you really don't know whether Stamkos could get to the 45 goal mark on this team, reflect on your thoughts of someone who hasn't gotten less than 30 in his 4 years as a Leaf and had 37 playing with Bozak as his set up man and Lupul (same line) as his other main threat.


Food for thought.
I'd sure trade Kessel for Stammer to find out.

Snow Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 07:19 PM
  #790
pcruz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Vaughan
Country: Portugal
Posts: 1,681
vCash: 500
For sure, and then your top line looks like JvR, Lupul and Stamkos....not a bad line at all right now. If Loops and JvR could set him up once in a while.

pcruz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 07:20 PM
  #791
416Leafer
Registered User
 
416Leafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 9,607
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcruz View Post
Let's play a hypothetical game here:

Say we have Stamkos in our line-up in place of Kessel, playing with Bozak as his set up man, and Lupul playing as the only other offensive threat on the team. Does he score 45?

I mean sure, 15 goals is a lot. But you have to consider the loss of St. Louis, a hart winner, art ross winner, and someone with 50 assists per season with Stamkos. Also note the loss of Lecavalier, who while not on Stamkos' line, is definitely someone opposing teams have to consider a major threat every game.

Then, if you really don't know whether Stamkos could get to the 45 goal mark on this team, reflect on your thoughts of someone who hasn't gotten less than 30 in his 4 years as a Leaf and had 37 playing with Bozak as his set up man and Lupul (same line) as his other main threat.


Food for thought.
Stamkos put up 95 points at age 19 playing with St. Louis.

Kessel put up 60 points at age 21 playing with Savard, Savard who had 88 pts that season.

There's really no food for thought. Stamkos is a far far better player.

416Leafer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 07:28 PM
  #792
Snow Dog
Victorious
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: GTA
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,155
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Stamkos put up 95 points at age 19 playing with St. Louis.

Kessel put up 60 points at age 21 playing with Savard, Savard who had 88 pts that season.

There's really no food for thought. Stamkos is a far far better player.
Kessel+Komi+Liles for Stamkos.The Bolts need D don't they.

Snow Dog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 07:31 PM
  #793
david999
Registered User
 
david999's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 821
vCash: 500
Too many people here underrate Kessel, while elevating Seguin to elite level alongside the likes of Crosby and Stamkos. Put Seguin in a Leafs uniform over the last 4 years and Phil in a Bruins uniform and I really doubt fans would think that Kessel would not be considered elite.

david999 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 07:32 PM
  #794
pcruz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Vaughan
Country: Portugal
Posts: 1,681
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Stamkos put up 95 points at age 19 playing with St. Louis.

Kessel put up 60 points at age 21 playing with Savard, Savard who had 88 pts that season.

There's really no food for thought. Stamkos is a far far better player.
There is a difference between playing with someone and playing on the same team as someone.

Also, Kessel got 60 points and 36 goals in 70 games, on a good team yes, 21 yes, not anywhere near the top of his team in terms of depth though.

Then again, are you implying that Savard is/was a better player/playmaker than St. Louis? I'm confused with that one.

pcruz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 07:50 PM
  #795
buntek
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 536
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by black charger View Post
I wouldn't trade Kessel straight up for Seguin today,maybe someday.

I'd even think twice if the Bruins threw in Hamilton.

But a trade for a guy like Perry would happen without a second thought.
Huh?

buntek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 08:04 PM
  #796
416Leafer
Registered User
 
416Leafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 9,607
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcruz View Post
There is a difference between playing with someone and playing on the same team as someone.

Also, Kessel got 60 points and 36 goals in 70 games, on a good team yes, 21 yes, not anywhere near the top of his team in terms of depth though.

Then again, are you implying that Savard is/was a better player/playmaker than St. Louis? I'm confused with that one.
umm... He did play with Savard... Savard assisted on the majority of Kessels goals that year.

And do I think Savard was as complete or dominant a player as St. Louis? No. But was he one of the very best playmakers in the league? Yes.

He had four straight seasons with 60+ assists, one of which was over 70. St. Louis only has two career seasons with more than 60 assists.

Seriously, if you aren't aware of the fact that Savard was one of the very best playmakers in the league over the past 10 years, and you think a Kessel to Stamkos comparison is legitimate, you really need to rethink some of your opinions/viewpoints.

I do like your condescending comment of "I'm confused with that one", since it really shows how confident you are in your incorrect assessment of Savard.

416Leafer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 08:05 PM
  #797
416Leafer
Registered User
 
416Leafer's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 9,607
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by david999 View Post
Too many people here underrate Kessel, while elevating Seguin to elite level alongside the likes of Crosby and Stamkos. Put Seguin in a Leafs uniform over the last 4 years and Phil in a Bruins uniform and I really doubt fans would think that Kessel would not be considered elite.
I have never heard anybody make a Seguin to Crosby/Stamkos comparison... So I don't really know what you're talking about.

416Leafer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-12-2013, 10:22 PM
  #798
The_Chosen_One
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 5,902
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
umm... He did play with Savard... Savard assisted on the majority of Kessels goals that year.

And do I think Savard was as complete or dominant a player as St. Louis? No. But was he one of the very best playmakers in the league? Yes.

He had four straight seasons with 60+ assists, one of which was over 70. St. Louis only has two career seasons with more than 60 assists.

Seriously, if you aren't aware of the fact that Savard was one of the very best playmakers in the league over the past 10 years, and you think a Kessel to Stamkos comparison is legitimate, you really need to rethink some of your opinions/viewpoints.

I do like your condescending comment of "I'm confused with that one", since it really shows how confident you are in your incorrect assessment of Savard.
It's true that Savard was one of the best playmakers in the league. However keep in mind that Stamkos was playing on a pretty stacked team. Most were predicting that the Lightnings were to make it.

On the other hand, most were not expecting the Leafs to win. It is quite interesting that despite not being as talent, Kessel was able to raise the performance of his linemates. In fact, our place in the standings was similar to the Lightnings despite being in a much more competitive division.

Kessel is severely underrated. He doesn't have anyone like St Louis on his side. Unlike Stamkos who is an prototypical scoring centreman, Kessel is a very crafty playmaker. Give him the correct environment and he'll thrive.

PS: Stamkos is superior to Kessel. However, Kessel is also an elite player.

The_Chosen_One is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:34 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2017 All Rights Reserved.