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Ryan Smyth: The most useless player on the team

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Old
10-03-2013, 12:08 PM
  #501
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Originally Posted by guymez View Post
So you are arriving at conclusions about how Eakins operates as an NHL coach and comparing him to Kruger after just 1 game.
Surely you see how flawed that is?
You misinterpreted. I think Krueger and Eakins have different beliefs re: toi. Eakins is more of a leverage your skilled players heavily. Kreuger believed in rolling lines and getting high energy for 40secs out of any line. I fail to see that I made conclusions off of one game. Clearly I consulted what eakins is actually stating and his stated philosophy on toi management.



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I think we need to read between the lines here. Its not that surprising that there is going to be some discomfort for certain players while RNH and Gagner are out of the lineup. Eakins has 1 legit NHL centre at this point in time. I think he is just positioning this is such a way that projects that the team will be able to get by with what they have.
Again Eakins stated this 27mins/night as part of his fitness rationale. He clearly tied in the two and that he believes players should be bionic fitness so that they can play around 27mins. I don't assume with this he intends to do something like that every night but really it shouldn't be happening at all. The last 4-5mins you can squeeze out of a top player is going to be pretty worthless because regardless of fitness there just won't be that much juice left. Eakins is comparing something he was able to do with forwards at AHL level and applying it here. Apparently without recognition of how much harder a minute of NHL play is


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I dont think Hall will ever see 27-28 minutes a night but I do think he should be able to handle 23 minutes on a short term basis and 20 -22 minutes over the course of the season. Thats what the best forwards in the game play on average so it shouldn't be an issue for Hall once he is in his natural position which isnt centre.
We shall see if Hall gets 27mins under Eakins which would be ridiculous and especially for a young forward not yet in their physical prime.

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I agree that Smyth had too much ice time and I am sure Eakins knows that as well. Maybe the message needs to get through to Smyth....its possible he may believe something different. If that was the case hopefully Smyth has seen the light and doesnt need any further evidence.
ha, if this would've worked Smyth would've seen it by now or two years ago when he was gasping for fumes around Xmas time. Smyth is a strange bird and seemingly oblivious. My own take is that Smyth as a human being is really struggling with the general concept of aging and progressing and letting the stardom and spotlight and game go. He's clinging, with all he's got, and it is painful to see. A person can start to believe that their entity requires that which they presently do for a living. I truly believe Smyth is presently unable to see beyond that. That he has the blinders on like he once said to Hemsky.



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I think we agree that Smyth can still be an effective player if he plays closer to 10 minutes a night.
I dont see Eakins as a slow learner....I am confident that he will sort through this.
Lets give him at least 2 games.
I'm actually liking Eakins quite a lot and agree he will learn. Just always a little frustrating to go through the new coaches learning curve each and every year as we dance through competitve seasons. I think in a sensible org some of these things are sussed out from the start. For instance that it is nonsensical to expect 27mins out of a forward in todays NHL. Pretty much any forward. It just doesn't occur in regulation time.
Heres an illustration of what the normal toi curve looks like for forwards, its also very revealing.


http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...OIPerGame&pg=1



Of the 140NHL forwards that have played in a game thus far this season only 13 have seen upwards of 20mins in a game. Curiously 3 of those players are Oilers and with Hall leading the way in 3rd place, with 23.5mins, and followed by Eberle, and Hemsky who also saw too many minutes. This kind of got away from Eakins as befits his fitness belief system but when you thrust a forward into clearly outlier waters that are way beyond normal curve you do it unwisely and with fairly poor return in those extra minutes being the result. Eakins is already acknowledging he should have used Joensuu and Gordon more, should have used 4th line more. He should learn but man he needs to roll the minutes back. This riding the same ponies will lead to trouble. He's done it two games in a row now.

btw don't think that the toi posted above is not representative, it is. Very few forwards in the NHL hover around 20mins game which is already a lot. Hall was seeing 18mins/game last season. Only one in the league last year averaged more than 22mins. So you see that Eakins 27mins quote for a forward is right out of the ballpark. He's dreaming in technicolor with that and somebody should tell him. because it sounds silly for him to state that. Hall would probably think it nuts. Lets remember as well that Eakins is not only increasing toi substantially for his topsix he's rotating them into much more taxing pk minutes.


Last edited by Replacement: 10-03-2013 at 12:59 PM.
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10-03-2013, 12:12 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by The Great Ones View Post
My concern is I'm looking at other top lines in other NHL rosters and the boatloads of younger talent at LW. And then I look at ours and I see Ryan Smyth.
meh.. thats not a great argument.
Once healthy we will have Hall, Perron, Joensuu down the left side.

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10-03-2013, 01:01 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by The Great Ones View Post
My concern is I'm looking at other top lines in other NHL rosters and the boatloads of younger talent at LW. And then I look at ours and I see Ryan Smyth.
Well when they're healthy their top-6 LW's are Hall and Perron...

Not bad by any means.

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10-03-2013, 01:34 PM
  #504
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Everything that Smytty learned over the years counts towards his value to the team and is getting passed on the the boys everyday. He's played with and battled against many NHL legends in his time.

Just a reminder for the kids, Smyttys fought in many hard earned playoff victories against such opponants as Roy and Belfour, Giguere, Jari Kurri, Modano, Niewendyk, Sakic, Forsberg, C.Lemieux, Chelios, Datsyuk, Shanahan, Lidstrom, Hatcher, Zubov, Foote and Selanne Neidermeyers, Getzlaf, Perry, Ozolinsh, Federov, Thorton, Mearleau.

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10-03-2013, 01:42 PM
  #505
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Originally Posted by SlapshotSuperstar View Post
Everything that Smytty learned over the years counts towards his value to the team and is getting passed on the the boys everyday. He's played with and battled against many NHL legends in his time.

Just a reminder for the kids, Smyttys fought in many hard earned playoff victories against such opponants as Roy and Belfour, Giguere, Jari Kurri, Modano, Niewendyk, Sakic, Forsberg, C.Lemieux, Chelios, Datsyuk, Shanahan, Lidstrom, Hatcher, Zubov, Foote and Selanne Neidermeyers, Getzlaf, Perry, Ozolinsh, Federov, Thorton, Mearleau.
So did Samsonov, should we dig him up and stick him on the top line too?

Smyth is done and these kinds of past glory arguments do nothing to change the player he is now.

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10-03-2013, 01:48 PM
  #506
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So did Horcoff for that matter...

Anything that happened prior to Smyths return is irrelevant

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10-03-2013, 01:55 PM
  #507
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Originally Posted by SlapshotSuperstar View Post
Everything that Smytty learned over the years counts towards his value to the team and is getting passed on the the boys everyday. He's played with and battled against many NHL legends in his time.

Just a reminder for the kids, Smyttys fought in many hard earned playoff victories against such opponants as Roy and Belfour, Giguere, Jari Kurri, Modano, Niewendyk, Sakic, Forsberg, C.Lemieux, Chelios, Datsyuk, Shanahan, Lidstrom, Hatcher, Zubov, Foote and Selanne Neidermeyers, Getzlaf, Perry, Ozolinsh, Federov, Thorton, Mearleau.
All the more reason to put him on the fourth line or in the pressbox. He can stay with the team and help teach for his last year of hockey.

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10-03-2013, 01:58 PM
  #508
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Interesting that Jari Kurri made Slapshot's list.

One of the greatest goal scorers of the modern era only had 5 goals in his final season in the NHL, before retiring.

He was younger then than Smyth is now, so perhaps it's Mr. Smyth that should do some learning, and stop dragging this ****show out.

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10-03-2013, 02:01 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by Red Deer Rebel View Post
Interesting that Jari Kurri made Slapshot's list.

One of the greatest goal scorers of the modern era only had 5 goals in his final season in the NHL, before retiring.

He was younger then than Smyth is now, so perhaps it's Mr. Smyth that should do some learning, and stop dragging this ****show out.
Couldn't agree more. My problem is more with Eakins now. The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results lol.

I already know what's going to happen. Smytty is going to score a goal off his jock strap and all the Smytty lovers will come clammering back. God help us

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10-03-2013, 02:33 PM
  #510
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Originally Posted by SlapshotSuperstar View Post
Everything that Smytty learned over the years counts towards his value to the team and is getting passed on the the boys everyday. He's played with and battled against many NHL legends in his time.

Just a reminder for the kids, Smyttys fought in many hard earned playoff victories against such opponants as Roy and Belfour, Giguere, Jari Kurri, Modano, Niewendyk, Sakic, Forsberg, C.Lemieux, Chelios, Datsyuk, Shanahan, Lidstrom, Hatcher, Zubov, Foote and Selanne Neidermeyers, Getzlaf, Perry, Ozolinsh, Federov, Thorton, Mearleau.
And exactly how many of these players are still impact players in the NHL? Past achievements are past achievements, and they have nothing to do with the present. Ryan Smyth belongs on waivers. Not the first line.

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10-03-2013, 02:43 PM
  #511
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Smyth needs to take one for the team


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10-03-2013, 02:48 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by s7ark View Post
So did Samsonov, should we dig him up and stick him on the top line too?

Smyth is done and these kinds of past glory arguments do nothing to change the player he is now.
Agreed that past glory arguments is pointless. Also pointless is arguing that Smyth isn't a first line winger. Hes 37 yo, of course he isn't. He is a stopgap at LW because Hall is playing centre and the Oilers have Perron and Joensuu playing top 9.

Having Perron play on the "second line" and Joensuu play on the "third line" means, they won't have to face the same opposition as Hall's line does. There is a logic to the madness if people actual stop to think about what Eakins is doing. I know, I know, expecting the mob to think is too much of an expectation.

Why not play Yakupov with Hall? Its a decent question - let me ask this - what's the difference between Yakupov and Smyth?

Ok, after you've stopped laughing, think about it.

Yakupov, is younger, faster, waaaay more skilled, has infinitely better shot than Smyth. What does Smyth offer?
#1 - Smyth plays LEFT WING. Yakupov tried that last year, and the results were really not good.

#2 - Smyth has played for years against top line opposition, most importantly defensively. Yakupov has not. For those of you who say - so what, it can't be that hard. Did you notice what happened to RNH's scoring when Krueger put him in the power line vs power line matchup last year? (I'm not suggesting that Smyth would outscore Yak in the role, just that Smyth has experience most importantly defensively in that role).

#3 - Smyth is decent at the simple play. i.e. battling on the boards, getting the puck out of the zone by bouncing it off the boards, standing in front of the net screening the goalie (i.e. Hemsky's goal against Winnipeg). They already have Hemsky as the dispy-doodler-shooter, Smyth is there to provide some meat.

And lastly for everyone who is waving their pitchforks.... its one game. And that the Oilers are missing two top six forwards in Gagner and RNH. Relax, Smyth will be relegated to fourth line duties once Gags and RNH is back.

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10-03-2013, 04:48 PM
  #513
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Did you see how many goals were scored yesterday?

Also I see the Avalanche are up 6-0 currently...
That's atypical output for one team in a game and you know it. The average goals score per game (not per team, but per game) is roughly 5gpg.

It is not easy to score in the NHL, especially for a 37yo Ryan Smyth.

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10-03-2013, 05:07 PM
  #514
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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
Agreed that past glory arguments is pointless. Also pointless is arguing that Smyth isn't a first line winger. Hes 37 yo, of course he isn't. He is a stopgap at LW because Hall is playing centre and the Oilers have Perron and Joensuu playing top 9.

Having Perron play on the "second line" and Joensuu play on the "third line" means, they won't have to face the same opposition as Hall's line does. There is a logic to the madness if people actual stop to think about what Eakins is doing. I know, I know, expecting the mob to think is too much of an expectation.

Why not play Yakupov with Hall? Its a decent question - let me ask this - what's the difference between Yakupov and Smyth?

Ok, after you've stopped laughing, think about it.

Yakupov, is younger, faster, waaaay more skilled, has infinitely better shot than Smyth. What does Smyth offer?
#1 - Smyth plays LEFT WING. Yakupov tried that last year, and the results were really not good.

#2 - Smyth has played for years against top line opposition, most importantly defensively. Yakupov has not. For those of you who say - so what, it can't be that hard. Did you notice what happened to RNH's scoring when Krueger put him in the power line vs power line matchup last year? (I'm not suggesting that Smyth would outscore Yak in the role, just that Smyth has experience most importantly defensively in that role).

#3 - Smyth is decent at the simple play. i.e. battling on the boards, getting the puck out of the zone by bouncing it off the boards, standing in front of the net screening the goalie (i.e. Hemsky's goal against Winnipeg). They already have Hemsky as the dispy-doodler-shooter, Smyth is there to provide some meat.

And lastly for everyone who is waving their pitchforks.... its one game. And that the Oilers are missing two top six forwards in Gagner and RNH. Relax, Smyth will be relegated to fourth line duties once Gags and RNH is back.
Smyth can't even make the simple play along the boards any more either. He turned the puck over literally 10+ times last game. He falls everywhere, is slow, like I said he connects more passes to the other team than our own, can't shoot worth a damn or skate worth a damn.

I'm sure he's a great guy, but he is simply not good at ANYTHING. He must be a decent locker room guy but out there on the ice he should not be.

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10-03-2013, 05:25 PM
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10-03-2013, 05:47 PM
  #516
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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
#2 - Smyth has played for years against top line opposition, most importantly defensively. Yakupov has not. For those of you who say - so what, it can't be that hard. Did you notice what happened to RNH's scoring when Krueger put him in the power line vs power line matchup last year? (I'm not suggesting that Smyth would outscore Yak in the role, just that Smyth has experience most importantly defensively in that role).
I agree with some of your points but I strongly disagree with this one. I would much rather have Yakupov out there, even defensively. Smyth has the experience so he knows what to do, but he doesn't have the skating to do it. As a result, he often takes holding or tripping penalties because he just isn't fast enough any more to keep up. It really hurts the team. Yakupov might not always know where to go but I'd take my chances with him over someone that's going to get beat a ton due to age-related degeneration.

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10-03-2013, 06:48 PM
  #517
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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
Agreed that past glory arguments is pointless. Also pointless is arguing that Smyth isn't a first line winger. Hes 37 yo, of course he isn't. He is a stopgap at LW because Hall is playing centre and the Oilers have Perron and Joensuu playing top 9.
This part of your post I mostly agree with. Just thought I'd say that before posting the rest. However, Joensuu and Perron should be staying in the top 9 after Hall's back on the wing. They should be ahead of Smyth at LW right now , no question.

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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
Having Perron play on the "second line" and Joensuu play on the "third line" means, they won't have to face the same opposition as Hall's line does. There is a logic to the madness if people actual stop to think about what Eakins is doing. I know, I know, expecting the mob to think is too much of an expectation.
It also means killing the play of our best player, and right now, possibly best two players. Smyth was Belanger bad last game. He actively destroyed any offense that Hall and Hemsky could generate.

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Why not play Yakupov with Hall? Its a decent question - let me ask this - what's the difference between Yakupov and Smyth?

Ok, after you've stopped laughing, think about it.

Yakupov, is younger, faster, waaaay more skilled, has infinitely better shot than Smyth. What does Smyth offer?
#1 - Smyth plays LEFT WING. Yakupov tried that last year, and the results were really not good.
Yakupov was tried there as a rookie during a stretch where he was struggling with the speed of the game. I would have no problem trying him there again over Smyth.

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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
#2 - Smyth has played for years against top line opposition, most importantly defensively. Yakupov has not. For those of you who say - so what, it can't be that hard. Did you notice what happened to RNH's scoring when Krueger put him in the power line vs power line matchup last year? (I'm not suggesting that Smyth would outscore Yak in the role, just that Smyth has experience most importantly defensively in that role).
Smyth brings limited defense to that line because he's too slow to get back into the play. And really, where is this Smyth is a defensive dream thing coming from, when has he ever been a defense first player? I think people just started calling him that because he can't produce offense any more and needed to justify a reason to still have him on the ice. He's a career -37. Not the worst ever, but hardly enough to get him cred as a defense first guy.

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#3 - Smyth is decent at the simple play. i.e. battling on the boards, getting the puck out of the zone by bouncing it off the boards, standing in front of the net screening the goalie (i.e. Hemsky's goal against Winnipeg). They already have Hemsky as the dispy-doodler-shooter, Smyth is there to provide some meat.
Smyth does almost none of those things at this point in his career. He lost every puck/board battle last game. At best he can stand in front of the goalie and if we're lucky, not just act like another blocker. And when he is in front of the net, better cross that defense off your list of reasons he's on the line because he certainly isn't getting back for any turned over pucks.

At best he can bank the puck off the boards and out now. And having only that skill is what got Petrell booted over the summer.

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And lastly for everyone who is waving their pitchforks.... its one game. And that the Oilers are missing two top six forwards in Gagner and RNH. Relax, Smyth will be relegated to fourth line duties once Gags and RNH is back.
One game when we're already going to be in tough this season. There is no reason to toss away points for nostalgia's sake and drag our best player down with this anchor around his neck.

Smyth is beyond useless right now. Him being on the top line makes me question Eakin's hockey knowledge.

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10-03-2013, 06:51 PM
  #518
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Couldn't agree more. My problem is more with Eakins now. The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results lol.

I already know what's going to happen. Smytty is going to score a goal off his jock strap and all the Smytty lovers will come clammering back. God help us
Interesting.
So whats the definition of arriving at that conclusion based on a grand total of 1 game?


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10-03-2013, 06:56 PM
  #519
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Interesting.
So whats the definition of arriving at that conclusion based on a grand total of 1 game?
Are you suggesting this was Smyth's first bad game since he returned to Edmonton?

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10-03-2013, 07:02 PM
  #520
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Are you suggesting this was Smyth's first bad game since he returned to Edmonton?
Pretty sure he was talking about reaching that conclusion on Eakins after one game, not Smyth.

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10-03-2013, 07:06 PM
  #521
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Are you suggesting this was Smyth's first bad game since he returned to Edmonton?
The poster was referring to Eakins which all things considered is a ridiculous statement.

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Couldn't agree more. My problem is more with Eakins now. The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results lol.

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10-03-2013, 07:08 PM
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Pretty sure he was talking about reaching that conclusion on Eakins after one game, not Smyth.
Yes...thank you.

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10-03-2013, 07:14 PM
  #523
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Pretty sure he was talking about reaching that conclusion on Eakins after one game, not Smyth.
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The poster was referring to Eakins which all things considered is a ridiculous statement.
Doh. Ignore that post. Need to work on my reading skills apparently.

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10-03-2013, 08:33 PM
  #524
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Smyth has intangibles


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10-03-2013, 08:53 PM
  #525
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Smyth has intangibles

Jan 25, 2006.

Smyth had intangibles.

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