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Alain Vigneault/coaching discussion thread - Part 4

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Old
03-12-2013, 05:25 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by HAMMY5 View Post
Thats a delicate procedure perfect for
Has this image yet been made with Mike Gillis' face on it?

He's an ophthalmologist, isn't he?

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03-12-2013, 05:36 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
Look at the roster! Anyone without Canuck blinders on could've predicted this. Prior to getting banned on Canucks.com, I predicted that the Canucks would miss the playoffs.

It's the 2011-12 team that was eliminated in 5 games in round 1, who are now all a year older, and who are + Jason Garrison, - Sami Salo & Aaron Rome. What are the other differences? There are none. Jason Garrison is not better than Sami Salo, today, and Aaron Rome is as good or better than either Alberts, Barker, or whatever other body they throw out there in the 6D slot.
First of all, Salo is NOT better than Garrison. If anything they are equal and Garrison has a higher upside, gets injured less, and is younger.

Second of all, what you're saying is that a sixth defenceman is going to be the factor that causes us to totally miss the playoffs? I don't buy that, especially when Rome should have always been a 7th D on this team.

Yes, there may be a tendency to overrate our personnel here on hfboards but let's not go crazy and extrapolate missing the playoffs by a roster that, by your own admission, isn't substantially different from the last two years.

Even if AV believes that this is where we would be, why in the hell would you admit that in public? That's basically dissing your entire team. Apparently he was also the only one who predicted this because most season previews thought we would be just fine - not just people on this board. His words were not only stupid, they were possibly damaging to the team - AND himself. I mean, he's basically saying that he's not a good enough coach to get a roster almost identical (and arguably better) to a team that won double PT and went on a SCF run roster to perform better than 6th in the conference.

Justifying that kind of idiocy by saying we have blinders on about our players is, while not incorrect, again ignoring what the real problem is right now - coaching.

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03-12-2013, 05:43 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
First of all, Salo is NOT better than Garrison. If anything they are equal and Garrison has a higher upside, gets injured less, and is younger.

Second of all, what you're saying is that a sixth defenceman is going to be the factor that causes us to totally miss the playoffs? I don't buy that, especially when Rome should have always been a 7th D on this team.

Yes, there may be a tendency to overrate our personnel here on hfboards but let's not go crazy and extrapolate missing the playoffs by a roster that, by your own admission, isn't substantially different from the last two years.

Even if AV believes that this is where we would be, why in the hell would you admit that in public? That's basically dissing your entire team. Apparently he was also the only one who predicted this because most season previews thought we would be just fine - not just people on this board. His words were not only stupid, they were possibly damaging to the team - AND himself. I mean, he's basically saying that he's not a good enough coach to get a roster almost identical (and arguably better) to a team that won double PT and went on a SCF run roster to perform better than 6th in the conference.

Justifying that kind of idiocy by saying we have blinders on about our players is, while not incorrect, again ignoring what the real problem is right now - coaching.
Woah woah woah. Don't sell Sami short.

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03-12-2013, 05:44 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by PRNuck View Post
Woah woah woah. Don't sell Sami short.
He really isn't better than Garrison, certainly not at this stage of his career. As for the #6 comment, that was referring to Rome.

(Younger, less injury prone, better advanced stats, better +/-, similar goal scoring numbers, facing up against tougher opposition, etc.)

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03-12-2013, 05:45 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
Has this image yet been made with Mike Gillis' face on it?

He's an ophthalmologist, isn't he?
New guy dropping BOMBS!

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03-12-2013, 05:51 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by PRNuck View Post
Woah woah woah. Don't sell Sami short.
Again coaching: why do people think Salo and Garrison are roughly equal or Sami better? (IMO Garrison is way better than Salo currently and will only get better)

It's because of the PP and his shot on it.

However, when Salo was here, he wasn't even being used correctly on the PP either. I still think Salo should have been on the 1st PP unit in the SCF - but no, we had to go with a guy with a bum shoulder and another guy with a broken hand on the points. EVEN after Salo bombed two straight 5-3 goals versus SJ in the previous round.

When Salo was being used correctly (mostly because they lost Ehrhoff), they looked for his shot on the PP. Even when it was him and Edler on the points he got his fair share of shots.

Right now Garrison is being used EVEN LESS. When he was on the 1st PP he was basically reduced to standing there while Edler put wrist shots into shinpads. You guys don't even have a good comparison and you're just assuming Salo is better? He's not.

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03-12-2013, 05:54 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
First of all, Salo is NOT better than Garrison. If anything they are equal and Garrison has a higher upside, gets injured less, and is younger.

Second of all, what you're saying is that a sixth defenceman is going to be the factor that causes us to totally miss the playoffs? I don't buy that, especially when Rome should have always been a 7th D on this team.

Yes, there may be a tendency to overrate our personnel here on hfboards but let's not go crazy and extrapolate missing the playoffs by a roster that, by your own admission, isn't substantially different from the last two years.

Even if AV believes that this is where we would be, why in the hell would you admit that in public? That's basically dissing your entire team. Apparently he was also the only one who predicted this because most season previews thought we would be just fine - not just people on this board. His words were not only stupid, they were possibly damaging to the team - AND himself. I mean, he's basically saying that he's not a good enough coach to get a roster almost identical (and arguably better) to a team that won double PT and went on a SCF run roster to perform better than 6th in the conference.

Justifying that kind of idiocy by saying we have blinders on about our players is, while not incorrect, again ignoring what the real problem is right now - coaching.
On Salo/Garrison - Salo is much better. Garrison's looked better, of late, but Sami Salo he is not. Salo's a better skater, he's much smarter, plays with far more poise, and he's much better on the PP. Specifically, for this team, I have no idea how it made sense Gillis to break the bank for a relatively unproven guy over a proven veteran lifer, at half the cap hit, like Sami Salo. Does not make sense.

AV said what he did to probably try and calm everyone down. Who cares? He is not the issue, I'm sorry. Mike Gillis' blunders have left this team where it is. Think we'd look any better with guys like Grabner and Hodgson? All that Vigneault has done since his arrival is win, his pedigree destroys any of Vancouver's other coaches, and the team is still in the playoffs (at the moment), so I really can't hear the argument for him to be fired at this point.

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03-12-2013, 05:59 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
Again coaching: why do people think Salo and Garrison are roughly equal or Sami better? (IMO Garrison is way better than Salo currently and will only get better)
You're aware that Garrison's turning 29 this year, right?

Not a lot of upside there, I wouldn't think, given that he was not even drafted (and yes, thanks, I'm aware that neither was Alex Burrows, there are exceptions to every rule). He had a breakout year, Gillis bought in, and now we have a 4th d-man under contract for 6 years at $4.6M, which, IMO, is pretty sad.

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03-12-2013, 06:04 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
You're aware that Garrison's turning 29 this year, right?

Not a lot of upside there, I wouldn't think, given that he was not even drafted (and yes, thanks, I'm aware that neither was Alex Burrows, there are exceptions to every rule). He had a breakout year, Gillis bought in, and now we have a 4th d-man under contract for 6 years at $4.6M, which, IMO, is pretty sad.
And you're aware that Salo is 38 and is a glass man right?

Anyways, I completely disagree with you but that's cool. There isn't such a gap between them that it should cause the entire lineup to act like they've never played hockey before. Same with Bieksa.

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03-12-2013, 06:10 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
You're aware that Garrison's turning 29 this year, right?

Not a lot of upside there, I wouldn't think, given that he was not even drafted (and yes, thanks, I'm aware that neither was Alex Burrows, there are exceptions to every rule). He had a breakout year, Gillis bought in, and now we have a 4th d-man under contract for 6 years at $4.6M, which, IMO, is pretty sad.
Offensively. He's been a quality defender since he stepped foot on NHL ice.

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03-12-2013, 06:47 PM
  #311
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Your argument is that AV knows that Burrows is the best linemate to keep the twins producing.

I'm countering that with the fact that AV has tried to replace him continuously for the last several years including the beginning of this year with Kassian.

You also say that AV has no other center options, when in reality he does - he could have kept Schroeder and we would have 4 centers - not necessarily quality ones depending on your perspective but that would have solved the center issue.

You act like AV has been backed into a corner when in reality there are a number of different options he could have pursued which he has steadfastly refused to try. The idea that Ebbett and Lapierre are the 'obvious' 2C candidates is enough evidence for me that he's grasping at straws right now.
That we have injuries to important players right now is a fair point, but it's not like he's been doing a good job of trying to deal with it either. Ottawa has been getting it done with even less to work with.

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03-12-2013, 06:54 PM
  #312
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This place can be mindboggling - "Garrison is better than Salo." Lol, that's priceless!

That's easily one of the stupidest things I've read on these boards.

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03-12-2013, 07:24 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
Your argument is that AV knows that Burrows is the best linemate to keep the twins producing.

I'm countering that with the fact that AV has tried to replace him continuously for the last several years including the beginning of this year with Kassian.

You also say that AV has no other center options, when in reality he does - he could have kept Schroeder and we would have 4 centers - not necessarily quality ones depending on your perspective but that would have solved the center issue.

You act like AV has been backed into a corner when in reality there are a number of different options he could have pursued which he has steadfastly refused to try. The idea that Ebbett and Lapierre are the 'obvious' 2C candidates is enough evidence for me that he's grasping at straws right now.
The only centers we have after H Sedin are Lappy, Ebbitt and Schroeder. Non of them are even 3Cs let alone able to fill in 2C so what are the number of different options that AV has?

Also on Burrows, the complaint is that we are not moving him back to center, I say it is because AV knows the twins need him to play there best, I am assuming that AV has made a decision on this. You are assuming that past decisions mean he cannot change his mind, I don't think he is bound by them.


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03-12-2013, 07:34 PM
  #314
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There are teams that are doing more with less. If AV can't manage with the current roster then maybe he's not as good of a coach as you seem to believe he is.
This says more about those teams then it dose about this one... Life dose not work that simple. Also I am not inclined to judge how good a coach he is, I have no Idea what goes on behind closed doors, Just don't like when people blame him for things taken out of context or are just plain not his fault.

However, that being said, I would be interested to hear what it is AV or the Canucks could do more like Ottawa in order to succeed, because your post seems to assume that they have the key to success and we don't.


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03-12-2013, 08:13 PM
  #315
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This place can be mindboggling - "Garrison is better than Salo." Lol, that's priceless!

That's easily one of the stupidest things I've read on these boards.
It's funny because some of us are thinking the exact opposite (or close to it).

Someone above said Sami Salo is a better skater than Jason Garrison, and I can only assume they meant this season....

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03-12-2013, 08:16 PM
  #316
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This says more about those teams then it dose about this one... Life dose not work that simple. Also I am not inclined to judge how good a coach he is, I have no Idea what goes on behind closed doors, Just don't like when people blame him for things taken out of context or are just plain not his fault.

However, that being said, I would be interested to hear what it is AV or the Canucks could do more like Ottawa in order to succeed, because your post seems to assume that they have the key to success and we don't.
He also outlined that previously.

What happens behind closed doors doesn't matter. The only real thing there is to judge is from what we see out on the ice.

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03-12-2013, 08:40 PM
  #317
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He also outlined that previously.

What happens behind closed doors doesn't matter. The only real thing there is to judge is from what we see out on the ice.
I will have a look for it later, It was an honest question as Tiranis often backs up comments with proof.

For me I think I think it dose matter what happens behind closed doors, otherwise AV could be doing everything we suggest, but the players are not responding, and we just assume the opposite. I just like to account for things we may not know. But people are free to judge how they like. Although it seems to be that people are looking at things saying AV did this so it must be wrong, not why did AV do this and what would have been the other options? not every poster, but some, they are free to do that if they like. Also if it was only about on ice performance then it could be broken down to just about results, and then we say last year we were the best team in the league, but it is not just about one thing, it is about every thing as a whole, some things I don't know about so I try not to judge it.

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03-12-2013, 08:46 PM
  #318
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For me I think I think it dose matter what happens behind closed doors, otherwise AV could be doing everything we suggest, but the players are not responding, and we just assume the opposite.
Because I can see how the breakouts are setup and how the offensive zone play is setup, how the D are supposed to play in the D zone, etc. It's all right there. Even if they're not executing, according to you, you can see what they're supposed to be doing.

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03-12-2013, 08:47 PM
  #319
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Ultimately even if the coach is doing a perfect job 'behind closed doors' and his team turns in **** efforts night after night, you've got to replace the coach anyway - unless you want to dismantle your core and try reassembling a winner with the same coaching staff.

I know AV is Gillis' "guy" now but even so that would be a pretty surprising turn here.

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03-12-2013, 08:51 PM
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Because I can see how the breakouts are setup and how the offensive zone play is setup, how the D are supposed to play in the D zone, etc. It's all right there. Even if they're not executing, according to you, you can see what they're supposed to be doing.
Still based on assumptions IMO, but that's cool, I have been foiled by them before, so I try not to assume things.

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03-12-2013, 08:53 PM
  #321
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Ultimately even if the coach is doing a perfect job 'behind closed doors' and his team turns in **** efforts night after night, you've got to replace the coach anyway - unless you want to dismantle your core and try reassembling a winner with the same coaching staff.

I know AV is Gillis' "guy" now but even so that would be a pretty surprising turn here.
Yes, or in time the players come around and we start winning into the playoffs.

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03-12-2013, 08:55 PM
  #322
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This place can be mindboggling - "Garrison is better than Salo." Lol, that's priceless!

That's easily one of the stupidest things I've read on these boards.
I can easily think of something dumber but I'd rather not get my first violation on the HF boards....

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03-12-2013, 08:57 PM
  #323
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Yes, or in time the players come around and we start winning into the playoffs.
My point is that the coach is judged by the results out on the ice, not by what happens behind closed doors.

Maybe AV gets another decade even if the players don't just start winning in the playoffs.. But I doubt it.

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03-12-2013, 09:00 PM
  #324
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My point is that the coach is judged by the results out on the ice, not by what happens behind closed doors.

Maybe AV gets another decade even if the players don't just start winning in the playoffs.. But I doubt it.
I agree with what you are saying, that is how MG and his bosses will judge him. But on HF he will be judged differently.

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03-12-2013, 09:03 PM
  #325
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I can easily think of something dumber but I'd rather not get my first violation on the HF boards....
once you get your first the rest are easy


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