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Alain Vigneault/coaching discussion thread - Part 4

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Old
03-19-2013, 12:14 AM
  #601
mrquincy27
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One can hope Laviolette is fired soon

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03-19-2013, 12:36 AM
  #602
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changed my user title to show support

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Old
03-19-2013, 01:47 AM
  #603
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AV needs to be fired. Did a trip to the SCF the previous year stop Therrien from getting fired by the Pens? Nope. AV can't keep living off of two presidents trophies. He can go be effective somewhere else cause he's not getting it done here.

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03-19-2013, 01:51 AM
  #604
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AV needs to be fired. Did a trip to the SCF the previous year stop Therrien from getting fired by the Pens? Nope. AV can't keep living off of two presidents trophies. He can go be effective somewhere else cause he's not getting it done here.
It's not even about where we are in the standings. For all I care, we could be in the same exact position but if AV was actually doing his best out there then I wouldn't say a word. I don't see this team doing their best or anything close to it.

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03-19-2013, 02:15 AM
  #605
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What is AV supposed to do with Andrew Ebbett, Max Lappierre/Higgins and JS? Don't bring up Ottawa or Pittsburgh because those team still have talent beyond that and stocked cupboards. I don't really see anything wrong with the systems other than Weise being over his head on the PK and Garrison missing the net on the pp and Sedins over passing. So tell me hockey geniuses what would firing AV at this point do? And who replaces him? It'd be just like Ruff in Buff same **** different toilet.

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03-19-2013, 02:17 AM
  #606
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changed my user title to show support

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Old
03-19-2013, 02:20 AM
  #607
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The best coach in the world couldn't win with the lineup the Canucks have now.

If they fire the coach then they fire the coach, but it won't be this miracle cure that some people think it will be.

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03-19-2013, 02:23 AM
  #608
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Originally Posted by Derp Kassian View Post
What is AV supposed to do with Andrew Ebbett, Max Lappierre/Higgins and JS? Don't bring up Ottawa or Pittsburgh because those team still have talent beyond that and stocked cupboards. I don't really see anything wrong with the systems other than Weise being over his head on the PK and Garrison missing the net on the pp and Sedins over passing. So tell me hockey geniuses what would firing AV at this point do? And who replaces him? It'd be just like Ruff in Buff same **** different toilet.
I'll just quote this since I'm too lazy to find my own posts and it's the best recent post on the topic:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
Ok, so what is it? You come on here and start picking at posts but I haven't seen you present a cohesive theory as to why the team is playing poorly.

I totally disagree that the owner, Gillis and AV are working in sync. And for all your mentions of 'low event hockey' - guess what? We are playing low event hockey RIGHT NOW. Most of the events are ones we give up against us.

Also, Gillis has stated in the media what his vision of this team is (repeatedly), and it isn't one that plays low cycle hockey continually and sits back on leads. This is reflected in the way that the team has been constructed. Even the guys who we traded that people seem to miss so much like Samuellson and Ehrhoff don't fit the play style of the team right now.

We are ALREADY playing close-to-the-vest hockey. No forechecking, long tip-ins, almost no even-man rushes, low cycle dump and chase - all of these are 'safe' hockey. We, like every other team, also plays a little trap here and there. We are literally one or two steps away from being that 2007 trap team - right now. To be honest, the only risky thing we do right now is how much our defence pinches.

The problem with most of the arguments you've presented is that we've already seen what this team is supposed to look like in 2009-2010 and 2010-2011. This team does not play ANYTHING like those two teams.

A lot of the skeleton of the systems of those teams remain, but they've been seriously neutered. An example is replacing the long stretch pass with the red-line tip in. Or the sudden regression of a dynamic PP with tons of passing to what we see today.

Notice that our PP hasn't given up a long breakaway due to the point guy mishandling the puck in a LONG time. This happened SEVERAL times in the 2010 playoffs, especially with Ehrhoff. Do you really think it's a coincidence that we now have a lot more conservative, static powerplay?

As for the LH shot thing, there are many teams out there with too many LH shots. European and Canadian players are mostly LH shots - our team is pretty reflective of this. And not TRYING RH players on the PP - how can that be anything but coaching?

People around here talk about letting the forwards be creative. How? There isn't really a way for them to do that right now with a predominantly low-cycle game. The worst thing is that we don't even do a stretched out cycle like the Hawks. Why? Because moving the cycle to the blueline/half boards is risky, and this is a risk-averse team.

It isn't a coincidence that our best line is the Sedins, and the reason they are creative is because they are allowed to do whatever they want. AV doesn't coach them at all, and he has admitted this in the media.

It also isn't a coincidence that in the last several games you see us scoring good goals on situations like odd-man rushes. That's because there is room and time to be creative. Our personnel isn't going to be as effective mucking under the goal line.

It also explains our bloated Fenwick. Remember, Fenwick is a volume statistic of shots DIRECTED on net. It includes shots on goal, plus misses and tips. Even our old teams had a lot of what I would call 'wasted' shot attempts from the perimeter when we got into the zone. Of course we have a high volume of directed shots - even the ones that miss count, and there is no provision for quality of shot in Fenwick/Corsi.

I will allow the idea that AV doesn't have the personnel - to play the system he thinks we should be playing, which has essentially reverted back to the 2006 season with some bells and whistles and a lot younger, faster, more skilled players.

However, we DO have the personnel to play a highly skilled offensive game with a defensive conscience. If you look at the players we have other than the Sedins, they are all young, fast, and decent in both ends. I do think we are low on pure sniping and to an extent passing but the latter is more of a result of purposely playing a less free-flowing game. All you have to do is look at who we have and it's obvious that there's a disconnect between the way AV is forcing the team to play and the way Gillis has constructed it.

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03-19-2013, 04:40 AM
  #609
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I think the question always has to be: can the team be better or not? Even if the results are good possession-wise, my feeling from seeing some of the issues is that we could be even better with some significant adjustments. You also have to wonder how much of that success is resting on the pure dominance of the Sedins.
Which, I think, brings up an interesting point: does the measure/ranking of "how good" a team is at possession and controlling the play simply depend on whether you have a lot of good possession players regardless of system, or could the system also be part of it? And if so, which factor might have more of an influence on that ranking?

Say you had a team full of guys that are good at possession but play under a bad system that tends to promote the opposite of it. Or a team with a terrific system geared towards minimizing shots against and maximizing shots for, but with poor possession players. What then?

Or might it simply be too hard to separate player from system even if this team is top 5? Because I agree with you that - as good as this team is - I get the sense that they could be even better.

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03-19-2013, 04:52 AM
  #610
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I actually liked the PP with Garrison on it. It created a goal and looked dangerous.

I didn't like all the adjustments though, didn't like that we added Hansen for a RHS while switching the sides that the Sedins set up on, seems counter-intuitive.

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Old
03-19-2013, 06:50 AM
  #611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derp Kassian View Post
What is AV supposed to do with Andrew Ebbett, Max Lappierre/Higgins and JS? Don't bring up Ottawa or Pittsburgh because those team still have talent beyond that and stocked cupboards. I don't really see anything wrong with the systems other than Weise being over his head on the PK and Garrison missing the net on the pp and Sedins over passing. So tell me hockey geniuses what would firing AV at this point do? And who replaces him? It'd be just like Ruff in Buff same **** different toilet.
Ottawa have talent? have you looked at who they are playing right now??....

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Old
03-19-2013, 07:29 AM
  #612
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Its time to let AV go, I´ve been an AV supporter the whole time he has been here and he is probably the best Canuck coach ever, but its time now.

This team looks lifeless, we need to change a lot of thing especially the breakout. IMO the Canucks take to few chances this is why they score to little, to much play along the walls, to few peolpe joing the rush and makeing highrisk plays. Defensemen like Edler and Bieksa are much better when you are pushing the pace, instead of sitting back their strength is offense so use it. Since that Bruin game in 2012 Canucks have not been dominating often enough.

Either Gillis makes a shakeup trade or AV goes. With the team struggling and few teams out of it trade prices are to high, so come on mike fire AV. Make it happend.

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Old
03-19-2013, 07:36 AM
  #613
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Why is this **** still behind the teams bench???

It is obvious his system = failure in this day and age.

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Old
03-19-2013, 07:37 AM
  #614
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Originally Posted by Wheatley View Post
The best coach in the world couldn't win with the lineup the Canucks have now.

If they fire the coach then they fire the coach, but it won't be this miracle cure that some people think it will be.
this. some people want change for the sake of change

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03-19-2013, 07:50 AM
  #615
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for those who keep saying that the team will be the same no matter who is coaching or who the coaching staffs are. Lemme ask you, what is the point having a coach than if they are irrelevant to how well your team does?

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03-19-2013, 07:56 AM
  #616
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for those who keep saying that the team will be the same no matter who is coaching or who the coaching staffs are. Lemme ask you, what is the point having a coach than if they are irrelevant to how well your team does?
ok...lemme ask you what the point of having high-end, expensive talent is if the coach is the one who makes the players better? why not just play with 21 $500,000 a year players and have the coach work his 'magic'?

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Old
03-19-2013, 08:27 AM
  #617
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ok...lemme ask you what the point of having high-end, expensive talent is if the coach is the one who makes the players better? why not just play with 21 $500,000 a year players and have the coach work his 'magic'?
Does this really need to be answered? Because with the right system and implementation, the latter group might squeak into the playoffs against all odds, and the former might win the Cup.

Wanna see how Vigneault might fair with better depth at centre? He had Henrik, Kesler, Hodgson and Manny/Lapierre last year until the deadline (and still had 5 NHL quality centres post-deadline) and had this team playing at the same level as it is now. Difference being he had the player talent to win last night's game 3-2 instead of lose 3-1.

That team was maligned in the press and on this forum for not playing up to expectations, but we were asked to wait until the playoffs for the magic switch to be flipped and it never was. Almost a year later we're still faced with the same defensive breakdowns, the same woefully inept PP and the same popgun offense. As it stands, do the Canucks have the personnel to make a Cup run? Doubtful - but to use your word, they don't need "magic" to be better than this.

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03-19-2013, 08:40 AM
  #618
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Does this really need to be answered? Because with the right system and implementation, the latter group might squeak into the playoffs against all odds, and the former might win the Cup.

Wanna see how Vigneault might fair with better depth at centre? He had Henrik, Kesler, Hodgson and Manny/Lapierre last year until the deadline (and still had 5 NHL quality centres post-deadline) and had this team playing at the same level as it is now. Difference being he had the player talent to win last night's game 3-2 instead of lose 3-1.

That team was maligned in the press and on this forum for not playing up to expectations, but we were asked to wait until the playoffs for the magic switch to be flipped and it never was. Almost a year later we're still faced with the same defensive breakdowns, the same woefully inept PP and the same popgun offense. As it stands, do the Canucks have the personnel to make a Cup run? Doubtful - but to use your word, they don't need "magic" to be better than this.
totally forgot when a team gets maligned in the press and these forums a GM should make a switch to appease the journalists and the anonymous posters on HF. my bad.

i place large blame on the stanley cup hangover. getting motivated as a fan was tough, wonder what it was like for the players? but in your world the coach should have been able to cure that.

this current lineup doesn't have the horses to run. face it people, this team just isn't very good.

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Old
03-19-2013, 08:51 AM
  #619
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totally forgot when a team gets maligned in the press and these forums a GM should make a switch to appease the journalists and the anonymous posters on HF. my bad.
If that's what you want to take away from that, fine - you're not going to be persuaded. Nobody was calling for a coaching change last year; they're doing so now because nothing has changed.

With or without the personnel, AV hasn't been able to get this team playing to its capacity the last two seasons. Proof's in the pudding, regardless of your opinion.

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03-19-2013, 08:53 AM
  #620
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Originally Posted by Finkle is Einhorn View Post
If that's what you want to take away from that, fine - you're not going to be persuaded. Nobody was calling for a coaching change last year; they're doing so now because nothing has changed.

With or without the personnel, AV hasn't been able to get this team playing to its capacity the last two seasons. Proof's in the pudding, regardless of your opinion.
more like....AV hasn't been able to get the team playing to your expectations

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03-19-2013, 08:57 AM
  #621
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ok...lemme ask you what the point of having high-end, expensive talent is if the coach is the one who makes the players better? why not just play with 21 $500,000 a year players and have the coach work his 'magic'?
Kinda sounds like the Minnesota Wild team that trapped us to death in 2003.

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Old
03-19-2013, 09:00 AM
  #622
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more like....AV hasn't been able to get the team playing to your expectations
Yeah the difference between a dominant team going to game 7 of the Cup Finals and playing like garbage for a half season before getting unceremoniously dumped in the first round was Ehrhoff and Samuelsson.

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03-19-2013, 09:03 AM
  #623
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Yeah the difference between a dominant team going to game 7 of the Cup Finals and playing like garbage for a half season before getting unceremoniously dumped in the first round was Ehrhoff and Samuelsson.
you're completely discounting the talent level of the teams they play against. this league isn't static. please tell me you can see the difference in the talent level/chemistry of today's team versus the cup finalist team. you can right?

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03-19-2013, 09:12 AM
  #624
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you're completely discounting the talent level of the teams they play against. this league isn't static. please tell me you can see the difference in the talent level/chemistry of today's team versus the cup finalist team. you can right?
This year's team is much different than the Cup team. I'm not, nor was I ever, expecting that level of play coming into the season. 20 games to go and 4 points ahead of the Oilers (who aren't tearing things up themselves)? Yeah, my expectations were higher. Find me someone's that weren't.

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03-19-2013, 09:17 AM
  #625
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also find it kind of strange for some fans to discount the contributions of ehrhoff, samuelsson, torres, malhotra etc to the stanley cup run...while at the same time clamoring for the canucks to pick up a 3rd liner for today's current lineup so they can go on another cup run

i mean, which is it? did they help or not?

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