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Alain Vigneault/coaching discussion thread - Part 4

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Old
03-21-2013, 01:03 AM
  #801
Tiranis
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Originally Posted by Verviticus View Post
every team does this.

in every sport

ever
I don't think either of you read the quote to the very end.

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03-21-2013, 01:06 AM
  #802
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Originally Posted by Verviticus View Post
every team does this.

in every sport

ever
I find it funny that people said we could not succeed 5 years ago, then we were very successful, then we lose for 1 month, and suddenly its all like, we said this would happen aaaaaages ago.

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03-21-2013, 01:07 AM
  #803
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I don't think either of you read the quote to the very end.
nope holy **** its even worse because that's literally not true about this team and hasn't been for years

sorry, i just assumed his point was the semi-legit one extrapolated out of the first couple lines. to suggest that av is legitimately trying to waste time when behind with sestito and co is ridiculous to the point that i wouldnt have wasted my time replying

considering this team has, in the past 5 years, set/tied the record for "most third period comebacks for a team" and i'm willing to bet is in the top 5 for best % of third period comebacks (im too lazy to total the data) now i just feel dumb for giving that a reply

like right now, the canucks when down a goal control play better than any team in the league. *******

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03-21-2013, 01:09 AM
  #804
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Originally Posted by TallPoppySyndrome View Post
I find it funny that people said we could not succeed 5 years ago, then we were very successful, then we lose for 1 month, and suddenly its all like, we said this would happen aaaaaages ago.
the best part is this http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.htm...ordWhenLeading

lol

edit oh he said "its still as true as the day as it was written" which is literally a true statement, 0% then and 0% now

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03-21-2013, 03:05 AM
  #805
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Originally Posted by jigsaw99 View Post
^ yea AV is horrible with the press... he really likes to talk bad about players through the media first before talking with his players.

He pissed Kesler off in the summer when he made a comment to the press about him need to pass more to his teammates. Kesler was pissed because AV never talked to him about it.

AV also started the whole Roxy thing for Obrien. Obrien was not happy about AV telling the press that.
Don't forget Willie Mitchell with him not being ready to come back but AV trying to force him to come back.

Also, Cody Hodgson who was saying he was having major injury issues and AV saying that he was making excuses (which Hodgson actually turned about to be correct about).

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03-21-2013, 04:11 AM
  #806
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Originally Posted by TallPoppySyndrome View Post
I find it funny that people said we could not succeed 5 years ago, then we were very successful, then we lose for 1 month, and suddenly its all like, we said this would happen aaaaaages ago.


Exactly. Alain Vigneault is an excellent coach. His record speaks for itself. He's not perfect, but he seems to get pretty good production out of players.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Momesso View Post
Yeah, I can imagine AV getting on players' nerves with his press comments, and also his alleged insistence with players playing through injuries - or coming back from injury, or just playing down the severity of injuries when he's obviously not qualified to do so.
Alleged by whom?

Those with knowledge or anonymous speculators?


Quote:
Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
Everyone on here knows I am biased against AV, I can only imagine what it might be like if he's insulting me or my friends to the media...and not even talking to me face to face.

Like last night after the game they asked him if he knew exactly what happened to Tanev and he said he didn't bother to find out.
That pissed me off to no end - we're talking about arguably our best defenceman this year, and you didn't even care exactly what happened? Shouldn't you figure that out in case it affects how you play him?

I don't understand the connection. How is he insulting Tanev by not having a detailed medical report after the game?

I don't want the coach conducting an MRI in a 2nd intermission and having Tanev turn his head and cough for him. I want him focused on getting the W that night. Deal with injuries after the game. And I am sure he did.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jigsaw99 View Post
^ yea AV is horrible with the press... he really likes to talk bad about players through the media first before talking with his players.
Unless you have a chronology of AV's conversations with players vis a vis his statements in the media, this comment is pure speculation on your part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jigsaw99 View Post
^
He pissed Kesler off in the summer when he made a comment to the press about him need to pass more to his teammates. Kesler was pissed because AV never talked to him about it.

AV also started the whole Roxy thing for Obrien. Obrien was not happy about AV telling the press that.
On the Kesler thing, Vigneault did not say he wanted Kesler to pass more. He said publicly that he wanted Kesler to "use the players around him more."

Kesler was pissed off because...he's Ryan Kesler. And he should be. He said: “I don’t know what [Vigneault] means by that” . “If he wants to say that, he can come to me and talk to me about it.”

I don't know why people here want a coach who doesn't make players angry. They should be angry and even hate the coach from time to time. Maybe its because most of us are from a coddled, babied, and over-loved "self esteem" generation, but the fact is sometimes you need to be called out.

Three months after those comments...guess what? Kesler was talking about how he was using his teammates more:
http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2...the-puck-more/

As for the Shane O'Brien comments, Vigneault never mentioned the Roxy. That was brought up after some girls posted cell phone picks online after partying with O'Brien there. What Vigneault did was deal with a guy who was an unmotivated problem from the start.
He showed up late to practice AFTER being scratched for 3 games.

Signs of a guy who wants to earn a roster spot. He showed up out of shape after the two week Olympic break and had to lose 8 pounds before he could play again.

All AV said was this: Obviously, there is more to this than just yesterday's incident, so we've got a plan for Shane O'Brien. He will not be practising or be with the team until Sunday. His situation then will be re-evaluated."


But of course, this is Vancouver, and all players, other than goalies, are gods to be worshipped, so how dare the coach demand professionalism from them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by luongo321 View Post
He also laughed his face off when one of the reporters made that comment about Kyle Wellwood playing like a man possessed. I'm sure that was great for Wellwood's confidence.
Wellwood was a pro athlete making 7 figures. If a coach laughing at some radio guy's question makes you question your confidence, you should see a High School counsellor.
The thought of Kyle Wellwood playing like a "man posessed" is hilarious. He plays a controlled, intelligent, cerebral game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinsane View Post
AV reminds me of the boss that seems like a nice enough guy until he says something uncomplimentary about you at the staff Christmas party.
His timing is just incredibly bad. The players are adults. Adults want to hear criticism, constructive or otherwise, behind closed doors. If a few aren't pissed at AV, they're not human.
That's interesting...Why would you want a boss who is a nice guy? I'd rather have one who is effective. Vigneault's record speaks for itself.
If the players hate AV, then why have the likes of Burrows, the Sedins, Bieksa, Kesler, Edler, Luongo, Schneider, Higgins, Raymond, Hansen and others re-signed in Vancouver, with AV being re-signed, and in some cases taking less money? If they hated the coach, they could (except Schneider and Raymond who were UFAs) have easily gone and tested the market for a "nice guy" as a coach.

Henrik Sedin was asked about this once. He said "You don't really want to be friends with the coach."


Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
(gasp) so it's true-- he never improved, it was just his team that did.
Right...the old argument. When the Canucks win, AV did nothing. When the Canucks lose, its AV's fault. This argument would drive any logician mad.

The Canucks improved by keeping much of their core, who have had career years under AV. In this city, we fall in love with players, so we fault the coach. The fact is he is an outstanding coach with a lot of respect from his players and around the league for a reason. When Nonis was fired, a new GM came in and has signed AV to two contract extensions. That's incredibly rare. You don't think that Gillis, being involved in the NHL for 35 years doesn't have great connections and insider knowledge on who the best coaches available are?

He kept AV because he knows he is a great coach...and they both know a hell of a lot more than the fans who worship atop of Mount Hodgson.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jigsaw99 View Post
^ oh yes that was Linden's last season wasn't it? He was money on the shootout but AV would scratch him over Isbister/Cowan/Ritchie.
Funny that you mention Linden. Trevor Linden, after retirement was asked who his favorite coach was. He played for about 20 years, and for a lot of coaches with 4 different organizations. Guess who he picked as his favorite coach? I'll give you a hint...its a guy Linden played for in Montreal AND in Vancouver, whose initials are AV...

Video here (at .43 seconds)...





And as for AV "refusing" to use Linden in the shootout? The Canucks were in 13 shootouts that season. Linden was selected by his favorite coach to shoot in 9 of them. I believe every time he was in the lineup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jigsaw99 View Post
^
AV loved Isbister/Cowan/Ritchie/Aaron Miller (all of whom didn't get a NHL job next season). He also refuses to play rookies like Raymond/Hansen/Bourdon.

Ritchie was playing on the point on the PP....

Taylor Pyatt was playing with the Sedins.... and AV loves him and thinks he first line player.

Markus Naslund was frustrated about the line constant line juggling

That was a bad season...

Nonis and AV was terrible
This is the crux of the analysis on AV in my opinion.

As fans, we like players as fans do "Man I love Hansen" or "I can't stand Alberts." So we think the coaches think of them the same way.

Coaches are not fans. As the saying goes, Coaches or GMs who listen to the fans eventually end up back in the stands sitting with them.

AV didn't "love" any of those players. He was trying in vain to make chicken salad out of chicken @#$%. He used Isbister/Ritchie, etc because that's who he had. If you look at that Canuck roster, they had no business being in the playoffs.

Naslund was frustrated because he was playing a new system, with new linemates and no longer had Bertuzzi. He put up pretty much the same numbers the next season with the Rangers.

And yes, the Sedins played with Pyatt for a while. They also had this 4th liner named Alex Burrows bumped up to their line for a bit. Which coach made that decision?


Quote:
Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Hypothetically speaking, if AV was fired does anyone think he'd take a job on a panel as an analyst?
He was a colour commentator on French Hockey Night in Canada for a bit.

He would be scooped up IMMEDIATELY though. That speaks volumes about his ability as a coach.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
Don't forget Willie Mitchell with him not being ready to come back but AV trying to force him to come back.

Also, Cody Hodgson who was saying he was having major injury issues and AV saying that he was making excuses (which Hodgson actually turned about to be correct about).
Willie Mitchell? That never happened. There was one story from Al Strachan that Mitchell didn't talk to AV. That has never been proven that AV tried to force a player back from concussion and its a pretty serious allegation so I would not make it if you don't have evidence to back it up.

As for Hodgson, I believe AV's comments were not helpful. But he trusted the Canucks medical staff who were the ones who really bungled that situation up.



The fact is AV would be hired pretty quickly, and there's a reason he's been employed here, and successful here, despite the fact that the posters here suggest that coaches have no role in a team's success, deserve no credit when a team does well, and are completely disposable.


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Old
03-21-2013, 04:42 AM
  #807
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It's time for AV and his crew to find a new home. Someone get Cooper on the phone.

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03-21-2013, 04:56 AM
  #808
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Originally Posted by professorchaos View Post
It's time for AV and his crew to find a new home. Someone get Cooper on the phone.
Jon Cooper has coached as many NHL games as I have. As an assistant, associate or head coach.

He has only worked with pro hockey players since 2010-11.

His team is 2 games above .500.

If you are going to replace a good coach, it better be because you have a better replacement, not an expirement.

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03-21-2013, 05:03 AM
  #809
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Originally Posted by Moses View Post
Exactly. Alain Vigneault is an excellent coach. His record speaks for itself. He's not perfect, but he seems to get pretty good production out of players.

The fact is AV would be hired pretty quickly, and there's a reason he's been employed here, and successful here, despite the fact that the posters here suggest that coaches have no role in a team's success, deserve no credit when a team does well, and are completely disposable.
I'd love to respond TL;DR but I actually did read it. Although you do bring up some decent points, why is it that you had to write such a long post defending all these instances in which AV publically said controversial things about players in public. I understand that the most recent pages of the thread have been about stuff that is admittedly speculative, he does have a history going back to Montreal. And as a former Habs fan, his time there didn't reflect well on him.

Still, even if we suppose that this is all hearsay, the sheer volume of your post doesn't speak well of his media portrayal of players. And it's not about being nice - it's about building relationships and managing personnel. coaches often slag their team in the media as a motivational tool, but rarely do they mention players individually. There's a reason for that.

Finally, there have been many posts in this thread regarding more technical reasons he should be let go. I would say the crux of the AV supporter is that they cite little more than the mans record as evidence that he is a good coach. You haven't made much of an argument for keeping him other than combating speculation with your own speculation. And even in that realm there are numerous examples of him putting his foot in his mouth and almost none of how he is backing up that kind of talk in private - in fact there is much more evidence that he does little to no communication with them.

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03-21-2013, 05:13 AM
  #810
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Originally Posted by Moses View Post
Exactly. Alain Vigneault is an excellent coach. His record speaks for itself. He's not perfect, but he seems to get pretty good production
the posters here suggest that coaches have no role in a team's success, deserve no credit when a team does well, and are completely disposable.
No ones denying AV has been a great coach but the message and style has possibly gone stale. He's demonstrated many times as recent as Schroeder with Weise/Sesito that he can't make adjustments fast enough. Management has failed him this season but there still is talent on this team to be better than they are.

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03-21-2013, 05:20 AM
  #811
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Originally Posted by Moses View Post
Jon Cooper has coached as many NHL games as I have. As an assistant, associate or head coach.

He has only worked with pro hockey players since 2010-11.

His team is 2 games above .500.

If you are going to replace a good coach, it better be because you have a better replacement, not an expirement.
Credibility = gone.

His team is coming off an AHL champsionship and record winning streak in his second season, and are currently the best team in the league in his third. There is a very strong argument to be made that he is the better coach.

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03-21-2013, 05:41 AM
  #812
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Credibility = gone.

His team is coming off an AHL champsionship and record winning streak in his second season, and are currently the best team in the league in his third. There is a very strong argument to be made that he is the better coach.
Really... a 'STRONG' argument? A 'VERY STRONG' argument?

I would think AV's accomplishments in the NHL (best league in the world as I recall) render the majority of Coopers mute.

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03-21-2013, 05:45 AM
  #813
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Credibility = gone.

His team is coming off an AHL champsionship and record winning streak in his second season, and are currently the best team in the league in his third. There is a very strong argument to be made that he is the better coach.
http://www.norfolkadmirals.com/relea...y1.php?id=1930

nice bio puff piece

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03-21-2013, 05:48 AM
  #814
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Really... a 'STRONG' argument? A 'VERY STRONG' argument?

I would think AV's accomplishments in the NHL (best league in the world as I recall) render the majority of Coopers mute.
Can't be argued. However if AV is cooked here it's irrelevant.

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03-21-2013, 07:52 AM
  #815
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Originally Posted by petrishriekandgo View Post
Really... a 'STRONG' argument? A 'VERY STRONG' argument?

I would think AV's accomplishments in the NHL (best league in the world as I recall) render the majority of Coopers mute.
He has a won a championship within two years at every level he has coached, including the AHL. That's without mentioning that most of those teams weren't even playoff teams prior to his arrival. There are very few coaches with that level of accomplishments prior to making the NHL.

There is little doubt that Cooper will be one of the best coaches to come along in a long, long time. It's like arguing that Sidney Crosby wasn't going to be a special player because he had no NHL track record. There was a time when Scotty Bowman and Mike Babcock had no NHL experience.

Let us not forget that Mike Gillis had zero NHL front-office experience when he got hired.


Last edited by Tiranis: 03-21-2013 at 08:08 AM.
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03-21-2013, 08:49 AM
  #816
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I would bet AV ends up in Philly, SJ or Edmonton if he is let go.

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03-21-2013, 02:09 PM
  #817
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Originally Posted by Moses View Post
Exactly. Alain Vigneault is an excellent coach. His record speaks for itself.
He has a great record with this team, president's trophies, blah blah blah.

All that matters is how the team is playing right now, and over the last year. I think its highly unlikely that he can magically get this team to play to its potential once again. Its been a fricking year now. He probably should have been replaced last April, because you could see this current predicament coming from a mile away.

Hes been here 7 years, and for whatever reason teams inevitably tune out their head coach. I agree that he is an excellent coach, and when he is let go someone will no doubt pick him up almost immediately. But for this team right now, he is a sucky coach who has outlived his usefulness.

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03-21-2013, 02:18 PM
  #818
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Originally Posted by Moses View Post
Jon Cooper has coached as many NHL games as I have. As an assistant, associate or head coach.

He has only worked with pro hockey players since 2010-11.

His team is 2 games above .500.

If you are going to replace a good coach, it better be because you have a better replacement, not an expirement.
you mean a terrible coach, that is not hard to find.

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03-21-2013, 02:20 PM
  #819
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Originally Posted by ItsAllPartOfThePlan View Post
I would bet AV ends up in Philly, SJ or Edmonton if he is let go.
Please don't let him go to Edmonton. In fact, i dislike Calgary with passion, i don't even want him to coach the Flames. That is how much I dislike AV as a coach.

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03-21-2013, 02:31 PM
  #820
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
He has a won a championship within two years at every level he has coached, including the AHL. That's without mentioning that most of those teams weren't even playoff teams prior to his arrival. There are very few coaches with that level of accomplishments prior to making the NHL.

There is little doubt that Cooper will be one of the best coaches to come along in a long, long time. It's like arguing that Sidney Crosby wasn't going to be a special player because he had no NHL track record. There was a time when Scotty Bowman and Mike Babcock had no NHL experience.

Let us not forget that Mike Gillis had zero NHL front-office experience when he got hired.
What you say is true, but to disregard the talent gap and transition from the minors to the big league is also being a little short-sighted I'd say. Cooper is a good coach, true, but the fact remains that he hasn't done anything in the NHL yet, while V. has.

There are examples of coaches excelling at a lower level but completely flaming out in the pros (Nick Saban and Pete Carroll in the NFL).

My point is, you can't just assume Cooper's current accomplishments will translate well to the NHL.

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03-21-2013, 03:24 PM
  #821
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Credibility = gone.

His team is coming off an AHL champsionship and record winning streak in his second season, and are currently the best team in the league in his third. There is a very strong argument to be made that he is the better coach.
Sorry I'm missing something here. He's the Norfolk Admirals coach right? I'm seeing them 11th in the conference.

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03-21-2013, 03:28 PM
  #822
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Originally Posted by PRNuck View Post
Sorry I'm missing something here. He's the Norfolk Admirals coach right? I'm seeing them 11th in the conference.
Syracuse Crunch.

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03-21-2013, 03:30 PM
  #823
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Sorry I'm missing something here. He's the Norfolk Admirals coach right? I'm seeing them 11th in the conference.
Tampa switched its affiliation to the Syracuse Crunch for this season so he's with them now and they're 1st in the league.

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03-21-2013, 03:31 PM
  #824
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Originally Posted by Finkle is Einhorn View Post
Syracuse Crunch.
Omg thank you. That's the first time google's let me down. I don't know how to feel. The hype for this guy makes so much more sense now.

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03-21-2013, 05:22 PM
  #825
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Originally Posted by PRNuck View Post
Omg thank you. That's the first time google's let me down. I don't know how to feel. The hype for this guy makes so much more sense now.
yeah, first link in google is a stale bio on the admirals website, not cool admirals. anyway, his record (short though it is) is pretty stellar.

Quote:
Code:
Season	Team				Lge	GP	W	L	T	OTL	Pct	Result
2006-07	St. Louis Bandits		NAHL	62	43	14	0	5	0.734	Won Championship
2007-08	St. Louis Bandits		NAHL	58	47	9	0	2	0.828	Won Championship
2008-09	Green Bay Gamblers	USHL	60	39	17	0	4	0.683	Lost in round 2
2009-10	Green Bay Gamblers	USHL	60	45	10	0	5	0.792	Won Championship
2010-11	Norfolk Admirals		AHL	80	39	26	0	15	0.581	Lost in round 1
2011-12	Norfolk Admirals		AHL	76	55	18	0	3	0.743	Won Championship
2012-13	Syracuse Crunch		AHL	63	38	17	3	5


Last edited by mrbitterguy: 03-21-2013 at 05:42 PM. Reason: added bandits championships, per tiranis
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