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Alain Vigneault/coaching discussion thread - Part 4

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Old
03-24-2013, 01:54 PM
  #976
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Like that 2011 team... what a disaster
Same idea, if not for a goalie "stealing" a win (game 7, round 1), we are bounced in the first round.

Luongo had to make 31 saves on 32 shots, including several point blank chances to get us the win in OT. We kept ineffectively trotting out the Sedins against Bolland and using the same tired strategies but in the end our talent won us the game.

Same thing is happening right now, we're on a three game win streak so AV is off the hot seat but the fact is we're being outplayed and out-chanced every game of the win streak, our goalie is just playing out of his mind.

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03-24-2013, 01:56 PM
  #977
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Same idea, if not for a goalie "stealing" a win (game 7, round 1), we are bounced in the first round.

Luongo had to make 31 saves on 32 shots, including several point blank chances to get us the win in OT. We kept ineffectively trotting out the Sedins against Bolland and using the same tired strategies but in the end our talent won us the game.

Same thing is happening right now, we're on a three game win streak so AV is off the hot seat but the fact is we're being outplayed and out-chanced every game of the win streak, our goalie is just playing out of his mind.
And the only reason the 'Hawks came back in that series was Crawford playing way over his head.

We've also outplayed teams and lost this season because of average to poor goaltending.

Teams don't win without strong goaltending.

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03-24-2013, 01:57 PM
  #978
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
That's fine, but who are the players buckling down? Is it the players who actually have something to prove? (Schroeder, contract year players, etc.) or is it our long-term veterans?
Why don't you provide us with your list of the non-contract year veterans you feel haven't been putting in a full effort?

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03-24-2013, 02:00 PM
  #979
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Originally Posted by Stonz View Post
I

Why don't you provide us with your list of the non-contract year veterans you feel haven't been putting in a full effort?
Edler and Bieksa for sure. I'm used to Hamhuis making up for Bieksa's inconsistent play but it hasn't happened that much this year. Yet, Ballard is the one that gets scratched.

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03-24-2013, 02:08 PM
  #980
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
And the only reason the 'Hawks came back in that series was Crawford playing way over his head.
Do you know where I can see the chance data? I remember that the Hawks had a ton of odd man rushes and breakaways but my memory has failed me before.

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03-24-2013, 02:10 PM
  #981
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Boucher might be a good add as an assistant.

Track record of improved PP play.

Might light a fire under AV, and provide the boys in the room with a new voice, a new attitude, and might just invigorate the group.
if yzerman would be willing to let him go for an assistant job, and if boucher would be willing to take it (with the understanding that he's auditioning for either AV's job or a head coaching job somewhere else for next year), then that's a really nice play.

fire bones and brown, hire boucher for the PP and promote someone from the wolves for the year (i'm guessing that the guy who handles their D is nolan b.) at the end of the year, assess what you have and decide whether it's AV or boucher, and if it's boucher you let him bring in his own people. if it's AV, then the gamble to cut his guys and light a fire under his butt paid off. boucher probably then moves on to a head coaching job somewhere else.

oh, and end of the year, baumgartner (of foligno or whomever) goes back to chicago for more seasoning unless the guy was a revelation.

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03-24-2013, 02:11 PM
  #982
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Originally Posted by petrishriekandgo View Post
Last time I checked it was a team game, not like Hank and Danny are out there by themselves. Also... with so many injuries how could MOST of that team on the ice NOT be players with something to prove?

You're grasping at straws...
And you have yet to attribute a compelling argument why coaching is not an issue. Tiranis did an in-depth analysis some time ago, and I've posted a few of my own. I have not once seen a rebuttal that does not consist of essentially, "AV gets wins, so whatever." So I will reiterate some of the problems observed:

Long pass
Breakout
Defensive structure (Bieksa, Hamhuis and Edler have been awful)
Holding leads (and subsequently losing)
Inability to score (now in the regular season)
Powerplay
Poor asset management (Ballard, Garrison, Schroeder)
Overuse of inferior personal (Ebbett, Alberts, Baker, Weise)

These, to varying degrees, are all issues we have had this season. Are you to say they are all to do with injuries and the roster?

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Originally Posted by Stonz View Post
I

Why don't you provide us with your list of the non-contract year veterans you feel haven't been putting in a full effort?
Alain Vigneault.

Done.

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03-24-2013, 02:18 PM
  #983
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
I have not once seen a rebuttal that does not consist of essentially, "AV gets wins, so whatever."
Winning consistently in this league involves outshooting the other team and getting better goaltending. That's really what it boils down to. You can pick apart the breakout, or the PP, or the lack of scoring over small sample sizes but it is undeniable that we are outshooting (and thus out chancing) teams and winning when we get goaltending, just like everyone else.

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03-24-2013, 02:31 PM
  #984
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
And you have yet to attribute a compelling argument why coaching is not an issue.
OK...

Edmonton Oilers
Nashville Predators
Tampa Bay Lightning
New York Rangers (very similar in a lot of aspects to our team)
Philadelphia Flyers
Washington Capitals
San Jose Sharks

All of these teams were expected to be better, all have talent/skill/experience and potential throughout their line-ups (enough to make up for areas that may be deficient anyhow) and all of them are playing below expectations.

Put AV and his staff on these teams and they're in the playoffs and if AV was canned these teams would all fall over themselves to sign him.

I've never said that coaching wasn't partially at fault for the Canucks issues (especially in regards to system adjustments in game and in series) BUT the Canucks have consistently been one of the best teams in the league in all major categories for 1/2 a decade now.

Coaching is much more of a strength of this team than a weakness.

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03-24-2013, 02:33 PM
  #985
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Originally Posted by petrishriekandgo View Post
I would think the Canucks took it to the Kings as well last night (almost exactly as many hits (35-good guys, 36-whining Squires http://gametracker-nhl.tsn.ca/17207 ) minus (for the most part) the over the top violence, but we don't have Nolan on our team. Hell, even Hank and Danny are instigating out there.

BUT, that being said the PP is killing them and making them work way harder than they need to for victories right now. They have to break through soon... just the law of averages demand it.
The over-the-top violence is what I'm talking about.

Not convinced the PP is going to just get much better. Percentages are against them, true, but the shot rate is WAY down.

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03-24-2013, 02:43 PM
  #986
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Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit View Post
The over-the-top violence is what I'm talking about.

Not convinced the PP is going to just get much better. Percentages are against them, true, but the shot rate is WAY down.
I just don't think GMMG or AV would put a player on the ice (Torres was dropped) that played that reckless/dangerous style of game. They wouldn't let a player put the team in short-handed situations again and again.

Granted... the league doesn't seem to mind 50% of the time.

As far as the PP, yes, it's abysmal (and that's being kind) right now. It was much better with Kesler back so if it's Kelser or Kassian or someone else that fills that roll they need to find it to have success.

But it's not looking promising that's for sure.

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03-24-2013, 02:53 PM
  #987
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Originally Posted by luongo321 View Post
We all know he can get the best out of a crappy, grinding team to just barely win. The problem arises when he tries to coach an uninjured more talented version of this team the same way. Hold the lead! Hold the lead! Don't you damn well try to score you guys! That doesn't work against a potent offensive team like the Chicago Blackhawks.
Back to back President's Cups and a SC Finals appearance would attest that he can also do well with a talented roster.

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03-24-2013, 02:56 PM
  #988
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Originally Posted by luongo321 View Post
Edler and Bieksa for sure. I'm used to Hamhuis making up for Bieksa's inconsistent play but it hasn't happened that much this year. Yet, Ballard is the one that gets scratched.
Ballard himself was scratched for making the wrong plays...
Go watch the games before he was scratched, nothing but pass back to Tanev.

The other 3 should not be scratched because when they play well they are great, we need them to win games.

Ballard is a #6 he dose not really make a difference.

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03-24-2013, 03:03 PM
  #989
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
And you have yet to attribute a compelling argument why coaching is not an issue. Tiranis did an in-depth analysis some time ago, and I've posted a few of my own. I have not once seen a rebuttal that does not consist of essentially, "AV gets wins, so whatever." So I will reiterate some of the problems observed:

Long pass
Breakout
Defensive structure (Bieksa, Hamhuis and Edler have been awful)
Holding leads (and subsequently losing)
Inability to score (now in the regular season)
Powerplay
Poor asset management (Ballard, Garrison, Schroeder)
Overuse of inferior personal (Ebbett, Alberts, Baker, Weise)

These, to varying degrees, are all issues we have had this season. Are you to say they are all to do with injuries and the roster?



Alain Vigneault.

Done.
A lot of the problems observed are in fact subjective. and the others seem to not allow for the fact the opposition is also doing there best to win.

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03-24-2013, 03:31 PM
  #990
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Originally Posted by petrishriekandgo View Post
I just don't think GMMG or AV would put a player on the ice (Torres was dropped) that played that reckless/dangerous style of game. They wouldn't let a player put the team in short-handed situations again and again.
Agreed completely (although Sestito is similar to Torres in his headhunting nature) - I didn't mean the Canucks needed more goons, I meant the PP had to get a lot better.

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Old
03-24-2013, 03:54 PM
  #991
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Fire AV, hire Boucher.

It's so simple.

And it won't happen because they're winning again.
Yeah

Maybe we can fire Newell and bring in Boucher as really not subtle shot across the bow for AV.

At the very least the PP will improve.

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03-24-2013, 03:55 PM
  #992
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Originally Posted by TallPoppySyndrome View Post
Ballard himself was scratched for making the wrong plays...
Go watch the games before he was scratched, nothing but pass back to Tanev.
Go watch Alberts - tell if he has three solid games - let alone "3 bad ones from Ballard".

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03-24-2013, 04:19 PM
  #993
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Originally Posted by petrishriekandgo View Post
OK...

Edmonton Oilers
Nashville Predators
Tampa Bay Lightning
New York Rangers (very similar in a lot of aspects to our team)
Philadelphia Flyers
Washington Capitals
San Jose Sharks

All of these teams were expected to be better, all have talent/skill/experience and potential throughout their line-ups (enough to make up for areas that may be deficient anyhow) and all of them are playing below expectations.

Put AV and his staff on these teams and they're in the playoffs and if AV was canned these teams would all fall over themselves to sign him.

I've never said that coaching wasn't partially at fault for the Canucks issues (especially in regards to system adjustments in game and in series) BUT the Canucks have consistently been one of the best teams in the league in all major categories for 1/2 a decade now.

Coaching is much more of a strength of this team than a weakness.
Edmonton Oilers --- Why would any one expect anything from this group yet? Their AHL team with the big 3 and shultz was still not in a playoff spot when the NHL season started (bouble team at the time)
Nashville Predators --- who expected much with the loss of one of the best dman in the league?
Tampa Bay Lightning ---- coach fired
New York Rangers (very similar in a lot of aspects to our team) --- people realizing how much they miss their depth guys like Prust but I will give you them, thats 1.
Philadelphia Flyers --- people maybe expected playoffs, but their d is terrible, lost a few guys, and their goaltending has been worse.
Washington Capitals --- New system, things look better, need more time to evaluate
San Jose Sharks --- People were saying they would be a team to miss the playoffs

So you have one team... Great list.

Here is the bottom line, AV can be, a good coach, but he has his faults. At this moment those faults, are outshining his good qualities, and the team has been doing bad since over a year ago. Adjustments must be made.

One of my big pet peeves of his is when he reverts back to his old ways, and I just don't get it. It does nothing but set everyone up to fail. Weise is actually pretty good at his role, but AV earlier was constantly trying to use him in a scoring line, and it would hurt both Weise, and his line, as he just at this point is not. Where yes Kassian has been incosistent, and that needs to be worked on, but reverting him back to the 4th line gives him bad habbits and won't get him his confidence back.

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03-24-2013, 04:30 PM
  #994
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Go watch Alberts - tell if he has three solid games - let alone "3 bad ones from Ballard".
But Alberts has been replaced by Ballard, and know one is claiming he should be playing...

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03-24-2013, 04:48 PM
  #995
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Winning consistently in this league involves outshooting the other team and getting better goaltending. That's really what it boils down to. You can pick apart the breakout, or the PP, or the lack of scoring over small sample sizes but it is undeniable that we are outshooting (and thus out chancing) teams and winning when we get goaltending, just like everyone else.
Montreal has gotten good goalie at best, average otherwise, and they're chasing Pittsburgh for the East lead. Meanwhile, our shot differential is 882/875 or .385; good enough for 26th in the league. Last year we were 4th. But yes, we're at least outshooting the opposition.

Incidentally, when our goaltending was average. We sank. This team has virtually never performed well unless Luongo or Schneider do. The same cannot be said of Crawford, Fleury, Anderson, Price or Rask.

Quote:
Originally Posted by petrishriekandgo View Post
OK...

Edmonton Oilers
Nashville Predators
Tampa Bay Lightning
New York Rangers (very similar in a lot of aspects to our team)
Philadelphia Flyers
Washington Capitals
San Jose Sharks

All of these teams were expected to be better, all have talent/skill/experience and potential throughout their line-ups (enough to make up for areas that may be deficient anyhow) and all of them are playing below expectations.

Put AV and his staff on these teams and they're in the playoffs and if AV was canned these teams would all fall over themselves to sign him.

I've never said that coaching wasn't partially at fault for the Canucks issues (especially in regards to system adjustments in game and in series) BUT the Canucks have consistently been one of the best teams in the league in all major categories for 1/2 a decade now.

Coaching is much more of a strength of this team than a weakness.
AV is either a negligible improvement or not one at all on the teams highlighted. Scurr's post above cites goaltending as a necessitate to our success. Think AV is going to work miracles with what Tampa is offering? Their defense is putrid, and goaltending almost equally as bad.

Edmonton is reliant on a kid roster - itself problematic. AV would likely net better results than Krueger but Edmonton is barely a bubble team regardless of coaching. Washington, meanwhile, is a disaster at practically every facet.

And since early 2012 we have struggling significantly - dirty wins we had no business winning and being completely dominated by LA come playoffs. This season the powerhouse rosters have all done something similar. Detroit and Chicago have us so figured out, it's laughable. Kesler's absence certainly warrants a decline but not to the extent we have witnessed. Were it not for an all-star Luongo surge earlier, we would be dog fighting for a playoff spot.

That said, I do not cite AV a bad coach, just one who has lost his voice here. Much akin to Ruff in Buffalo or what seems to be the case with Laviolette and Tortorella in Philly and New York respectively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TallPoppySyndrome View Post
A lot of the problems observed are in fact subjective. and the others seem to not allow for the fact the opposition is also doing there best to win.
If the opposition is doing better, then we in turn, need to adjust and improve our strategy to remain competitive. Both the long pass and breakout have become so predictable teams actively employ a winger to specific counter it. When fans on a message can call out plays well before they happen because we all know what will occur. That speaks volumes on our redundancy.

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03-24-2013, 05:15 PM
  #996
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Montreal has gotten good goalie at best, average otherwise, and they're chasing Pittsburgh for the East lead. Meanwhile, our shot differential is 882/875 or .385; good enough for 26th in the league. Last year we were 4th. But yes, we're at least outshooting the opposition.

Incidentally, when our goaltending was average. We sank. This team has virtually never performed well unless Luongo or Schneider do. The same cannot be said of Crawford, Fleury, Anderson, Price or Rask.



AV is either a negligible improvement or not one at all on the teams highlighted. Scurr's post above cites goaltending as a necessitate to our success. Think AV is going to work miracles with what Tampa is offering? Their defense is putrid, and goaltending almost equally as bad.

Edmonton is reliant on a kid roster - itself problematic. AV would likely net better results than Krueger but Edmonton is barely a bubble team regardless of coaching. Washington, meanwhile, is a disaster at practically every facet.

And since early 2012 we have struggling significantly - dirty wins we had no business winning and being completely dominated by LA come playoffs. This season the powerhouse rosters have all done something similar. Detroit and Chicago have us so figured out, it's laughable. Kesler's absence certainly warrants a decline but not to the extent we have witnessed. Were it not for an all-star Luongo surge earlier, we would be dog fighting for a playoff spot.

That said, I do not cite AV a bad coach, just one who has lost his voice here. Much akin to Ruff in Buffalo or what seems to be the case with Laviolette and Tortorella in Philly and New York respectively.



If the opposition is doing better, then we in turn, need to adjust and improve our strategy to remain competitive. Both the long pass and breakout have become so predictable teams actively employ a winger to specific counter it. When fans on a message can call out plays well before they happen because we all know what will occur. That speaks volumes on our redundancy.
I agree with your general sentiment but I don't agree that Chicago has us figured out. Isn't the season series at 1 win 1 overtime loss for the Canucks?

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03-24-2013, 07:04 PM
  #997
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
If the opposition is doing better, then we in turn, need to adjust and improve our strategy to remain competitive. Both the long pass and breakout have become so predictable teams actively employ a winger to specific counter it. When fans on a message can call out plays well before they happen because we all know what will occur. That speaks volumes on our redundancy.
I agree with you, although I thought that they started to change that in the last little while, with the game against LA being a different of breakout strategy.

If your issue is that the Coach needs to change strategy (or can't change it) for the team to be better, then I invite you ton have a look at the games at the moment compered to some earlier ones. I would be interested if people think it has not changed.

If your issue is that you don't think the coach dose not deserve the chance to change it then there is no point, because your mind is made up.

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03-24-2013, 07:06 PM
  #998
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Boucher might be a good add as an assistant.

Track record of improved PP play.

Might light a fire under AV, and provide the boys in the room with a new voice, a new attitude, and might just invigorate the group.
I thought you were an advocate of keeping AV. Why would he need a fire lit under his ass all of a sudden?

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03-24-2013, 07:17 PM
  #999
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I agree with your general sentiment but I don't agree that Chicago has us figured out. Isn't the season series at 1 win 1 overtime loss for the Canucks?
Yes, but that game they still completely dominated us. Hossa managed to one man our entire second/third line. We were basically just keeping up with them while Luongo played phenomenal. When I say "figured out" I don't necessarily mean we lose the game; rather we have difficulties keeping pace and do not look like the winning team.

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03-24-2013, 07:24 PM
  #1000
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Originally Posted by TallPoppySyndrome View Post
I agree with you, although I thought that they started to change that in the last little while, with the game against LA being a different of breakout strategy.

If your issue is that the Coach needs to change strategy (or can't change it) for the team to be better, then I invite you ton have a look at the games at the moment compered to some earlier ones. I would be interested if people think it has not changed.

If your issue is that you don't think the coach dose not deserve the chance to change it then there is no point, because your mind is made up.
I do not believe we have changed enough to maintain the template we established - a tall order since every team since has replicated it. Detroit beat us soundly in both outings. LA grinded us into only quiet win where Schneider held a one goal lead, although we did beat them 5-2 prior. Point remains we still employ a predictable system that has been routinely exploited.

That said, I can live with AV being allotted the season to figure something out. If he cannot and we our bounced in the first round. Coaching has to be seriously looked at. God forbid we miss the playoffs completely (extremely unlikely)

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