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Fedorov vs. Selanne

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03-22-2013, 01:28 PM
  #476
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
So your just going to ignore that he had coffey from 94-96, then when he resurged in 2003 he had lidstrom, shanahan and hull. Gets traded and drops to 65 points, yup keep cherry picking. Your arguments for fedorov are all based on projections, keep thinking he's got jagr's offense if he wanted it. Selanne is going to be above Fedorov on most all time lists.

No you havent posted any significant information on how many points Fedorov scored in 1994-96 that were assisted or scored by yzerman/coffey, or his supporting cast in 2003. You choose to focus solely on selanne, hence why I am referring to your arguments as CHERRY PICKING.
But Fedorov hardly ever played with Coffey during those years! The defensemen behind him were always Fetisov and Konstantinov! Even on PP.

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03-22-2013, 01:31 PM
  #477
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
But Fedorov hardly ever played with Coffey during those years! The defensemen behind him were always Fetisov and Konstantinov! Even on PP.
Prove it, he posted selanne's stats without kariya without showing a direct link to boxscores. Defenseman are on the ice 30 minutes a game, they arent matched with 1 specific line. I have seen plenty of red wings footage from the mid 90s where Coffey and Fedorov are on the ice together. In 1994, Yzerman spent parts of the season injured, which gave feds more ice time with coffey's pairing and when he did play, he was playing left wing at times.

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03-22-2013, 01:35 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
So your just going to ignore that he had coffey from 94-96, then when he resurged in 2003 he had lidstrom, shanahan and hull. Gets traded and drops to 65 points, yup keep cherry picking. Your arguments for fedorov are all based on projections, keep thinking he's got jagr's offense if he wanted it. Selanne is going to be above Fedorov on most all time lists.

No you havent posted any significant information on how many points Fedorov scored in 1994-96 that were assisted or scored by yzerman/coffey, or his supporting cast in 2003. You choose to focus solely on selanne, hence why I am referring to your arguments as CHERRY PICKING.
First bold point, Fedorov still outscored all the names you previously had in there, and the dropping to 65 points (which still comfortably led Anaheim in scoring) has already been explained for you as well.

Second bolded point, outside of the powerplay, I see more Cicarelli and Kozlov next to Fedorov scoring plays on the flyershistory site than I do Coffey. Lots of Yzerman+Sheppard+Coffey, though. Yzerman and Fedorov in the same scoring play seems incredibly rare from the game logs I've gone through to this point.

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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Prove it, he posted selanne's stats without kariya without showing a direct link to boxscores. Defenseman are on the ice 30 minutes a game, they arent matched with 1 specific line. I have seen plenty of red wings footage from the mid 90s where Coffey and Fedorov are on the ice together. In 1994, Yzerman spent parts of the season injured, which gave feds more ice time with coffey's pairing and when he did play, he was playing left wing at times.
The boxscores are all here if you want. I never go through the extent of tabulating the results, but it's all there for you if you're willing to put in the leg work.

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03-22-2013, 01:43 PM
  #479
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
First bold point, Fedorov still outscored all the names you previously had in there, and the dropping to 65 points (which still comfortably led Anaheim in scoring) has already been explained for you as well.

Second bolded point, outside of the powerplay, I see more Cicarelli and Kozlov next to Fedorov scoring plays on the flyershistory site than I do Coffey. Lots of Yzerman+Sheppard+Coffey, though. Yzerman and Fedorov in the same scoring play seems incredibly rare from the game logs I've gone through to this point.



The boxscores are all here if you want. I never go through the extent of tabulating the results, but it's all there for you if you're willing to put in the leg work.
What explanation, that switching teams suddenly dropped his production from 83 to 65. You want to discredit selanne for playing with kariya for 22 freaking games, but ignore that he lead the league in even strength offense and other players had far better supporting casts in 1998 throughout the whole season. This should be labelled the 'excuses for fedorov' thread.

I dont care if he barely outscored an aging hull and shanahan, he had way more help in 2003 and we saw his numbers dip once he went to a crappy team.

Selanne also 'comfortably' lead the ducks in scoring in 1998 and he did ti by a pretty massive margin, but according to you he had lots of help, but fedorov didnt. Do you really believe your own bs?

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03-22-2013, 01:47 PM
  #480
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
What explanation, that switching teams suddenly dropped his production from 83 to 65. You want to discredit selanne for playing with kariya for 22 freaking games, but ignore that he lead the league in even strength offense and other players had far better supporting casts in 1998 throughout the whole season. This should be labelled the 'excuses for fedorov' thread.

I dont care if he barely outscored an aging hull and shanahan, he had way more help in 2003 and we saw his numbers dip once he went to a crappy team.

Selanne also 'comfortably' lead the ducks in scoring in 1998 and he did ti by a pretty massive margin, but according to you he had lots of help, but fedorov didnt. Do you really believe your own bs?
If you're intentionally forgetting/dismissing posts that are mere pages/posts away in this very thread, and inserting hyperbole into my posts, then I think we're done here.

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03-22-2013, 01:48 PM
  #481
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Dude, Coffey did not play 30 min a night, not in the Bowman's Red Wings! Bowman played five-men units, rolling four lines as much as possible. In 94-96 Fedorov first played with Cicarelli, then with Kozlov and Brown, then, as a winger, with the Russian Five. At all times he was fronting Konstantinov and almost never Coffey.

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03-22-2013, 01:50 PM
  #482
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
If you're intentionally forgetting/dismissing posts that are mere pages/posts away in this very thread, and inserting hyperbole into my posts, then I think we're done here.
No I think we were done the minute you said all of selanne's teammates were launching the puck up to him in 1998 and he was standing in front of the net and tipping in all of thier passes, while bragging about fedorov outscoring 3 great linemates. Yeah you had a horse in this race, so it was never an objective argument to begin with. Selanne gets no credit for leading his team in scoring by a massive margin, but fedorov gets so much credit for barely outscoring 2 great teammates, wow.

Yeah the boxscores show that Yzerman scored or assisted on almost all of fedorov's points in October, and a decent portion of february and march. I also see the names cicarelli, kozlov, primeau, coffey and lidstrom on a large chunk of fedorov's points. His supporting cast in 1994 was enormous. But again, the homer fans want to make it sound like he spent the whole season racking up 120 points playing solely with sheppard, kozlov & konstantinov.


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03-22-2013, 02:00 PM
  #483
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Dude, Coffey did not play 30 min a night, not in the Bowman's Red Wings! Bowman played five-men units, rolling four lines as much as possible. In 94-96 Fedorov first played with Cicarelli, then with Kozlov and Brown, then, as a winger, with the Russian Five. At all times he was fronting Konstantinov and almost never Coffey.
And then Kozlov and Brown again when the Russian Five wasn't put together, right?

I'm sorry, but Slava Kozlov and Doug Brown + 18 minutes per night is not the kind of situation to inflate a player's stats.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he only had Dino in 93-94 - when Yzerman was healthy for the full season, he got Dino.

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03-22-2013, 02:17 PM
  #484
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Dude, Coffey did not play 30 min a night, not in the Bowman's Red Wings! Bowman played five-men units, rolling four lines as much as possible. In 94-96 Fedorov first played with Cicarelli, then with Kozlov and Brown, then, as a winger, with the Russian Five. At all times he was fronting Konstantinov and almost never Coffey.
Then why do the names Coffey, Cicarelli and Lidstrom show up on more than half of his points in 1994. He also played with yzerman for the whole month of october 1993, and yzerman assisted on a good chunk of his points in feb-march. So im guessing november and december are the two months yzerman sat out, which helped pad fedorov's stats with coffey-cicarelli-lidstrom-kozlov-primeau.

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03-22-2013, 02:38 PM
  #485
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Then why do the names Coffey, Cicarelli and Lidstrom show up on more than half of his points in 1994. He also played with yzerman for the whole month of october 1993, and yzerman assisted on a good chunk of his points in feb-march. So im guessing november and december are the two months yzerman sat out, which helped pad fedorov's stats with coffey-cicarelli-lidstrom-kozlov-primeau.
i don't take issue with the content of what you said, but it seems incongruous to me to characterize taking extra responsibilities for the team's injured superstar/captain as "padding."

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03-22-2013, 02:38 PM
  #486
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Then why do the names Coffey, Cicarelli and Lidstrom show up on more than half of his points in 1994. He also played with yzerman for the whole month of october 1993, and yzerman assisted on a good chunk of his points in feb-march. So im guessing november and december are the two months yzerman sat out, which helped pad fedorov's stats with coffey-cicarelli-lidstrom-kozlov-primeau.
Now that I actually see who was on the Wings in 1993-94, it jogs my memory, and IIRC, Fedorov played a lot with Ray Sheppard in 1993-94 and he helped turn Sheppard into a 52 goal, 93 point man. Sheppard was second on scoring on the wings that year, by the way.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/DET/1994.html

There's a reason Fedorov had 31 of 54 1st place Hart votes in 1993-94 (despite being a hated Russian), with Doug Gilmour being the only other forward to get 1st place Hart votes (he had 4).

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03-22-2013, 02:49 PM
  #487
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Now that I actually see who was on the Wings in 1993-94, it jogs my memory, and IIRC, Fedorov played a lot with Ray Sheppard in 1993-94 and he helped turn Sheppard into a 52 goal, 93 point man. Sheppard was second on scoring on the wings that year, by the way.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/DET/1994.html

There's a reason Fedorov had 31 of 54 1st place Hart votes in 1993-94 (despite being a hated Russian), with Doug Gilmour being the only other forward to get 1st place Hart votes (he had 4).
Fedorov deserved the hart, but he also scored a good chunk of his points with coffey-lidstrom-cicarelli-primeau. He also had yzerman in october. Fedorov was the best that year, but then again if hasek played 70 games and bourque played the whole year, is he really the best player than? Hasek was head and shoulders above the other goalies, 93% save percentage is pretty ridiculous for a run n gun season. Bourque being on pace for 104 points while being the best defensive defenseman is more impressive than a 120 point defensive forward.

During the 1995 lockout, either coffey or yzerman scored or assisted on 25/50 of Fedorov's points. So the concept of him hardly playing with those two can get thrown out of the window, in 1995 they were on half of his points.

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03-22-2013, 04:59 PM
  #488
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
No I think we were done the minute you said all of selanne's teammates were launching the puck up to him in 1998 and he was standing in front of the net and tipping in all of thier passes, while bragging about fedorov outscoring 3 great linemates. Yeah you had a horse in this race, so it was never an objective argument to begin with.
First of all, what a horrible distillation of what I've provided so far, and you should be ashamed of the poetic license and exaggeration you've inserted into my words.

Secondly, I don't have a "horse" in this race. I've been nothing but a Habs fan since I can remember, and have "soft spots" only for Edmonton (where I've lived and enjoyed the benefit of season tickets) and Chicago (my father's favourite team growing up). I hold the play of Yzerman, Fedorov, and Datsyuk in such high regard because they deserve it.

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03-22-2013, 05:16 PM
  #489
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
First of all, what a horrible distillation of what I've provided so far, and you should be ashamed of the poetic license and exaggeration you've inserted into my words.

Secondly, I don't have a "horse" in this race. I've been nothing but a Habs fan since I can remember, and have "soft spots" only for Edmonton (where I've lived and enjoyed the benefit of season tickets) and Chicago (my father's favourite team growing up). I hold the play of Yzerman, Fedorov, and Datsyuk in such high regard because they deserve it.
Fedorov deserves to be in the top 100, but towards the bottom of it. Rank him in your top 50 if you must, doesnt change the fact that he's the worst offensive forward that will make the list. He played great defense, good for him, he also sacrificed a good chunk of 'franchise player' offense in order to make up for his defense.

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03-22-2013, 11:15 PM
  #490
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
During the 1995 lockout, either coffey or yzerman scored or assisted on 25/50 of Fedorov's points. So the concept of him hardly playing with those two can get thrown out of the window, in 1995 they were on half of his points.
Fedorov hardly played with Yzerman. He played with Coffey during the lockout; Fetisov was acquired from New Jersey that season and only played 14 games for the Wings, paired with Mike Ramsey. The Russian Five unit wouldn't come together until sometime during the next season.

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Now that I actually see who was on the Wings in 1993-94, it jogs my memory, and IIRC, Fedorov played a lot with Ray Sheppard in 1993-94 and he helped turn Sheppard into a 52 goal, 93 point man. Sheppard was second on scoring on the wings that year, by the way.
Sheppard only played on Fedorov's wing for a couple weeks to start the season; not long after Yzerman's injury Fedorov was with Kozlov and Ciccarelli and Sheppard was alongside Primeau. Yzerman would return to the lineup on Primeau's left wing, and then move back to center later on in the season.

In 1994-95, Sheppard actually spent more of the season with Yzerman than Fedorov, although Bowman kind of bounced him back and forth and on used him on both wings.

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03-22-2013, 11:47 PM
  #491
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Fedorov hardly played with Yzerman. He played with Coffey during the lockout; Fetisov was acquired from New Jersey that season and only played 14 games for the Wings, paired with Mike Ramsey. The Russian Five unit wouldn't come together until sometime during the next season.



Sheppard only played on Fedorov's wing for a couple weeks to start the season; not long after Yzerman's injury Fedorov was with Kozlov and Ciccarelli and Sheppard was alongside Primeau. Yzerman would return to the lineup on Primeau's left wing, and then move back to center later on in the season.

In 1994-95, Sheppard actually spent more of the season with Yzerman than Fedorov, although Bowman kind of bounced him back and forth and on used him on both wings.
In 1995, yzerman scored or assisted on 10 out of the 50 points fedorov put up.
In 2003, shanahan-hull-lidstrom fed him the whole year. He switches teams the next year and his production tanks.

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03-23-2013, 06:04 AM
  #492
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No I think we were done the minute you said all of selanne's teammates were launching the puck up to him in 1998 and he was standing in front of the net and tipping in all of thier passes, while bragging about fedorov outscoring 3 great linemates. Yeah you had a horse in this race, so it was never an objective argument to begin with. Selanne gets no credit for leading his team in scoring by a massive margin, but fedorov gets so much credit for barely outscoring 2 great teammates, wow.

Yeah the boxscores show that Yzerman scored or assisted on almost all of fedorov's points in October, and a decent portion of february and march. I also see the names cicarelli, kozlov, primeau, coffey and lidstrom on a large chunk of fedorov's points. His supporting cast in 1994 was enormous. But again, the homer fans want to make it sound like he spent the whole season racking up 120 points playing solely with sheppard, kozlov & konstantinov.
I am too tired and not skilled enough to go on for this battle. Thank you for doing it.

For all i have read, there is a lot of bias in favor of Fedorov. I mean, A LOT.

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03-23-2013, 09:22 AM
  #493
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I am too tired and not skilled enough to go on for this battle. Thank you for doing it.

For all i have read, there is a lot of bias in favor of Fedorov. I mean, A LOT.
Yeah, I share the same feelings with you guys.

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03-23-2013, 09:27 AM
  #494
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I am too tired and not skilled enough to go on for this battle. Thank you for doing it.

For all i have read, there is a lot of bias in favor of Fedorov. I mean, A LOT.
By A LOT I think you mean TOO MUCH. He was a very good player, had some very good seasons but some on here are mentioning him in the same breathe as Gretzky and it's very annoying. Red Wing fans are pushing this too far, he is barely top100 and anything higher is a disrespect to the game and players that deserve it.

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03-23-2013, 09:35 AM
  #495
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some on here are mentioning him in the same breathe as Gretzky and it's very annoying.
Isn't it just that one guy who also has Smith over Roy?

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03-23-2013, 09:42 AM
  #496
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Isn't it just that one guy who also has Smith over Roy?
Well, keeping in context,the Billy Smith guy is just saying it to say it and he hasn't taken over every thread with Smith/Islander talk.
MOD


Last edited by Fugu: 03-23-2013 at 04:11 PM. Reason: we're here to discuss the players, not the other posters
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03-23-2013, 10:00 AM
  #497
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This is one of those loop type arguments that you get sucked into without realizing you're in it.

None of the Red Wings on their great 90's teams were indeed great. Their stats are inflated ~because~ they were Red Wings. None of the Montreal Canadiens of the 1970's were great either. They were great because they were Habs. None of the 1980's Oilers were great either. You surround very good players with other very good players, and thus none of them really are great, they just got lucky.

I personally can't think of a great NHL player who languished on a cellar dweller for the majority of his career, but managed to tear apart all these stats and figures you guys routinely pull out as your metrics (yes, plural) of greatness. I'm open to being shown otherwise.
Marcel Dionne.

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03-23-2013, 10:36 AM
  #498
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This is one of those loop type arguments that you get sucked into without realizing you're in it.

None of the Red Wings on their great 90's teams were indeed great. Their stats are inflated ~because~ they were Red Wings. None of the Montreal Canadiens of the 1970's were great either. They were great because they were Habs. None of the 1980's Oilers were great either. You surround very good players with other very good players, and thus none of them really are great, they just got lucky.

I personally can't think of a great NHL player who languished on a cellar dweller for the majority of his career, but managed to tear apart all these stats and figures you guys routinely pull out as your metrics (yes, plural) of greatness. I'm open to being shown otherwise.
He didn't say that though. I think ushvinder's just trying to counter the argument that Fedorov didn't play with Coffey and Yzerman and still put up a ton of points. Given the numbers he's provided I'd have to say that Sentinel's probably wrong about Feds always playing with Konstantinov and almost never with Coffey.

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03-23-2013, 10:40 AM
  #499
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He didn't say that though. I think ushvinder's just trying to counter the argument that Fedorov didn't play with Coffey and Yzerman and still put up a ton of points. Given the numbers he's provided I'd have to say that Sentinel's probably wrong about Feds always playing with Konstantinov and almost never with Coffey.
Of course,he played with them, the both of them are wrong, it's why it's best to nod your head and tell them Son of Virgin Mary; St Sergei is better than Wayne Gretzky.

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03-23-2013, 12:30 PM
  #500
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Will you relax? Sergei Fedorov was not better than Wayne Gretzky. Dixi.

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