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Fedorov vs. Selanne

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Old
03-13-2013, 09:36 AM
  #201
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
This isn't even worth a response, is it?
Well the argument for Fedorov is really strong, didn't think it was so absolute though.

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03-13-2013, 09:41 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
The answer is right in front of me. . . and anyone else who has watched about five minutes of hockey. Which is why I'm not going to bother with this any further.
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Oh, boy.
Seriously, the question was in the 90's so don't look back to the 80's.

Wayne won his last scoring title and received zero votes for Hart in the 90's.

Mario played in so few games.

Do either of you really think that either "legend" had more value in the 90's than Fedorov or that it's even close?

You might not like the question, that's one thing, but the answer is pretty darn clear.

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03-13-2013, 09:50 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Seriously, the question was in the 90's so don't look back to the 80's.

Wayne won his last scoring title and received zero votes for Hart in the 90's.
You should clarify that to "received zero Hart votes when he won his last scoring title in 1994." Because he certainly received votes in 1991 and 1997.

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03-13-2013, 10:18 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Off the top of my head, Lindros in 1997 was swept, Forsberg in 1999 and 2002 didn't make it to the Finals, Gaborik was a point away from leading in 2003 without making it to the Finals, and I want to say that Giroux nearly did it from two rounds of work in 2012. It's not that strange, but still quite an accomplishment. Like I said though, he led the playoffs in scoring because he was able to really pound the stuffing out of San Jose's .850 goaltending (11 points in 4 games). Francis and Fleury had some rounds like that themselves, but they didn't make it out of rounds one/two respectively, so it's not like they were going to chase down Fedorov for the lead. Who else was up there? Broten?
Yeah,agreed it does happen while not common it's not rare either. If I remember right it happened alot in the 70s and 80s.

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03-13-2013, 10:21 AM
  #205
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Based on what I have read in this thread, I can conclude the following:


Fedorov was arguably the best forward of the 90s.

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03-13-2013, 10:25 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Based on what I have read in this thread, I can conclude the following:


Fedorov was arguably the best forward of the 90s.

Guess so, had one of the best seasons ever too. Where was the kryptonyte back then, seems, he couldn't be stopped no matter what crappy players Bowman saddled him with.

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03-13-2013, 10:48 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Based on what I have read in this thread, I can conclude the following:

Fedorov was arguably the best forward of the 90s.
I don't think that's a fair statement. Perhaps top four if you are generous to Fedorov. But not the best. The top three 90s forwards, to me, are clearly (in no order) Lemieux, Yzerman, and Jagr. After that, there's (in no order) Fedorov, Forsberg, Sakic, Lindros, Messier, Oates, Hull, Gretzky, Selanne, Kariya, Bure, LaFontaine, Stevens, Gilmour, Recchi, and Mogilny.

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03-13-2013, 11:40 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I don't think that's a fair statement. Perhaps top four if you are generous to Fedorov. But not the best. The top three 90s forwards, to me, are clearly (in no order) Lemieux, Yzerman, and Jagr. After that, there's (in no order) Fedorov, Forsberg, Sakic, Lindros, Messier, Oates, Hull, Gretzky, Selanne, Kariya, Bure, LaFontaine, Stevens, Gilmour, Recchi, and Mogilny.


Well, I would not put Fedorov on the same level with Lindros and Gilmour. He was celarly better than that

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03-13-2013, 11:47 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Based on what I have read in this thread, I can conclude the following:


Fedorov was arguably the best forward of the 90s.
There is absolutely nothing in this thread that would lead a reasonable person to this conclusion.

Seriously, please provide one shred of evidence that would support this claim.

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03-13-2013, 11:55 AM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Well, I would not put Fedorov on the same level with Lindros and Gilmour. He was celarly better than that
But he wasn't as good as Lemieux, Yzerman, or Jagr.

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03-13-2013, 11:59 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Well, I would not put Fedorov on the same level with Lindros and Gilmour. He was celarly better than that
No, Gilmour and Fedorov are clearly very much equal and personally I have a hard time "clearly" picking one.

I realize this is not the topic but how exactly do you come by "clearly" better than Gilmour? Heck, Gilmour's Selke 1993 season is definitely on par with Fedorov's Hart/Selke 94 season. Glimour was unfortunate to play behind Mario's insane year, or he would have won it. To me players like Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr are in their own worlds, it has to be taken into consideration how much better they were than everyone else and take them out sometimes. Fedorov benefits in 94 from Mario not playing or he does not win that Hart.

Not a big fan of Lindros but even his Hart year compares not as much though. Edge = Fedorov but I can be convinced otherwise.

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03-13-2013, 12:18 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
No, Gilmour and Fedorov are clearly very much equal and personally I have a hard time "clearly" picking one.

I realize this is not the topic but how exactly do you come by "clearly" better than Gilmour? Heck, Gilmour's Selke 1993 season is definitely on par with Fedorov's Hart/Selke 94 season. Glimour was unfortunate to play behind Mario's insane year, or he would have won it. To me players like Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr are in their own worlds, it has to be taken into consideration how much better they were than everyone else and take them out sometimes. Fedorov benefits in 94 from Mario not playing or he does not win that Hart.

Not a big fan of Lindros but even his Hart year compares not as much though. Edge = Fedorov but I can be convinced otherwise.
LaFontaine was named to the second All-Star team in 1993; while Gilmour finished second in Hart voting it's hard to say he definitely would have won had Lemieux not been there. Remember, with Lemieux removed, LaFontaine leads the league in points. I think it's a similar situation to what I believe would happen in the 87-88 NHL if everyone had comparable seasons but Gretzky and Lemieux were not there; Yzerman leapfrogs Fuhr.

I just don't see them giving the Hart to Gilmour if you take away the "Pittsburgh OMGWTFBBQ" aspect and make it a choice between LaFontaine, Gilmour, Yzerman, Oates, Chelios, Bourque, Robitaille, and Selanne.

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03-13-2013, 12:20 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
LaFontaine was named to the second All-Star team in 1993; while Gilmour finished second in Hart voting it's hard to say he definitely would have won had Lemieux not been there. Remember, with Lemieux removed, LaFontaine leads the league in points. I think it's a similar situation to what I believe would happen in the 87-88 NHL if everyone had comparable seasons but Gretzky and Lemieux were not there; Yzerman leapfrogs Fuhr.

I just don't see them giving the Hart to Gilmour if you take away the "Pittsburgh OMGWTFBBQ" aspect and make it a choice between LaFontaine, Gilmour, Yzerman, Oates, Chelios, Bourque, Robitaille, and Selanne.
Gilmour came in 2nd in Hart voting and doubled the votes for LaFontaine and beat the rest of the field total votes (including Patty) with 99 votes. So, yes, w/o Mario he wins the Hart and he wins it handily.


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03-13-2013, 12:31 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
But he wasn't as good as Lemieux, Yzerman, or Jagr.

I would definitely disagree with Yzerman who certainly has been an excellent hockey player. I think Sergei was even more valuable than Steve because of his postseason productivity and exceptional defensive skills.

Lemieux -- it's a great pity but he has not been particularly durable. Fedorov stayed healthy and had four 20+ pts consecutive playoffs.

Jagr - had terrific individual stats but without Lemieux he couldn't lead the Penguins to the top.



PS. I think this thread is turning into Fedorov vs Everybody

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03-13-2013, 01:01 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Lemieux -- it's a great pity but he has not been particularly durable. Fedorov stayed healthy and had four 20+ pts consecutive playoffs.
Lemieux had playoffs with 44, 34, 28 and 18 pts in the 90s...

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Jagr - had terrific individual stats but without Lemieux he couldn't lead the Penguins to the top.
Have you looked at the rosters?

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03-13-2013, 01:06 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
Lemieux had playoffs with 44, 34, 28 and 18 pts in the 90s...


Have you looked at the rosters?

No, I haven't looked at the rosters. I watched the games.

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03-13-2013, 01:13 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
No, I haven't looked at the rosters. I watched the games.
After reading your posts in this thread I highly doubt that you watched any NHL games in the 80s/90s.

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03-13-2013, 01:21 PM
  #218
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semantics, qpq. semantics.

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
How does an 8th place finish not add to his resume in this argument? Hell, Fedorov only placed 8th or higher once. We're comparing him to Sergei Fedorov; we're not trying to see if Selanne can chase down a top-30 player by maintaining relevance in his 40s.
obviously if we were just comparing offense to offense, selanne wins all day, every day. there are other aspects of the game, which require difficult judgments like how to weigh elite offense against elite defense, regular season dominance over playoff dominance, etc. etc. etc.

how does an 8th place finish not add?
because it doesn't tell us anything new about how good selanne was. semantics, buddy. does gretzky's art ross in '94 add anything to his resume? if selanne is ray whitney, then sure that 8th place finish changes things. i give selanne a little more credit than that, though.

i'm not even going to get into what selanne may or may not have done in the playoffs (if... if... if...), because... we've danced this dance before. most of us have danced this dance before with you. if someone else wants to go with you, that person should have their chance. i'll just add that at his peak markus naslund looks like a pretty boss playoff performer on paper too, especially if you consider how little scoring depth his teams had.

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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
On the other hand, people are pretending that Fedorov in 1994 resembled Fedorov in the other 93.4% of his career, because he was able to pick up some playoff points against the outmatched 1995 Sharks and 1998 Coyotes. He balanced top-five offense with elite defense once in his life, and never broke the 50 or 40 goal thresholds again - his only other HOF-level season being a 9th place finish. Do you realize how many times Selanne has finished higher than 9th? Seven. That's the actual number - not some projection of what he would have had based upon a rose-tinted view of what could have been. He has seven to Fedorov's one.

1994 was a pretty big departure from everything else Fedorov did in his career, and if we judged Fedorov based upon what he did for his remaining years as opposed to what we assume he possessed the talent to do, he would barely be on anyone's radar as an offensive player.
nobody's pretending that '99 fedorov was the same thing as '94 fedorov. but i think some people in this thread are acknowledging that fedorov's defensive excellence was consistent through his red wings career, even when his offense fluctuated between excellent, good, and slava kozlov-level.

as for discrediting fedorov's playoff production and claiming that he was compiling against weaker teams and disappearing when it counted, of his four straight 20 point years, he had exactly one lopsided year: 1998. and he still had 3 of detroit's 6 points in the last two games of the finals that year. here are his scoring breakdowns in those other three years, ordered by round:

1995: 5 in 5 (dallas), 11 in 4 (SJ), 3 in 4 (chi) 5 in 4 (NJ)
1996: 7 in 6 (win), 4 in 7 (STL), 8 in 7 (col)
1997: 2 in 6 (STL), 5 in 4 (ana), 7 in 6 (col), 6 in 4 (phi)


but maybe if we want to be constructive about this instead of tearing the other player down, it would make more sense to construct an argument about how regular season scoring heroics trump defensive excellence and consistent playoff scoring. these guys both did what they did; and we all saw their careers. no amount of exposing real or imagined holes in fedorov's career (or selanne's) is going to teach us anything new. the real debate is, and always has been, regular season scoring vs. defense and playoffs. everything else, and especially all the what ifs, are just moving the goalposts.

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03-13-2013, 01:30 PM
  #219
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After reading your posts in this thread I highly doubt that you watched any NHL games in the 80s/90s.

Be nice and keep reading the rosters.

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03-13-2013, 01:33 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Be nice and keep reading the rosters.
So you confirm that you have no clue with which kind of teammates Jagr played when Lemieux was out?

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03-13-2013, 01:34 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
I would definitely disagree with Yzerman who certainly has been an excellent hockey player. I think Sergei was even more valuable than Steve because of his postseason productivity and exceptional defensive skills.
Yzerman's finishes in the 90s:

Scoring: 4, 7, 7, 10
Selke: 1, 3, 4, 9, 14, 16
All-Star team: 1, 4, 5, 6, 6, 10
Hart: 7, 8, 8, 12, 18, 19

You have to remember that "90s" includes the period from 90-91 through 92-93 before Fedorov's Hart year, where Yzerman was still an elite scorer. He was second in goals and third in points during that span.

Quote:
Lemieux -- it's a great pity but he has not been particularly durable. Fedorov stayed healthy and had four 20+ pts consecutive playoffs.

Jagr - had terrific individual stats but without Lemieux he couldn't lead the Penguins to the top.
Lemieux led the Pens to the Cup twice during the 90s, and Jagr was on both of those teams. When did Fedorov get there without Yzerman? Or vice versa, for that matter. This almost sounds like a Messier thread.

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PS. I think this thread is turning into Fedorov vs Everybody
He can take 'em!

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03-13-2013, 01:50 PM
  #222
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Just my 2 cents, but I think Selšnne was more important to his team for more years, than Fedorov was for his team. I also think Selšnne was more important for his team in any single elite season, than Fedorov was for his team.
But admittedly I'm a Selanne homer. Just Ducks was a 2 man team (sometimes one man team), while Red Wings had quite a bunch of talent besides Fedorov.

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03-13-2013, 02:01 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Yzerman's finishes in the 90s:

Scoring: 4, 7, 7, 10
Selke: 1, 3, 4, 9, 14, 16
All-Star team: 1, 4, 5, 6, 6, 10
Hart: 7, 8, 8, 12, 18, 19

You have to remember that "90s" includes the period from 90-91 through 92-93 before Fedorov's Hart year, where Yzerman was still an elite scorer. He was second in goals and third in points during that span.



Lemieux led the Pens to the Cup twice during the 90s, and Jagr was on both of those teams. When did Fedorov get there without Yzerman? Or vice versa, for that matter. This almost sounds like a Messier thread.



He can take 'em!


I think Fedorov has been more valuable player than Yzerman for the most of the 90s. Hence, a Hart, a Pearson and four 20+ postseasons in a row.


Re Jagr & Lemieux -- shall we create a separate thread to discuss them vs Fedorov?

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03-13-2013, 02:11 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
I think Fedorov has been more valuable player than Yzerman for the most of the 90s. Hence, a Hart, a Pearson and four 20+ postseasons in a row.


Re Jagr & Lemieux -- shall we create a separate thread to discuss them vs Fedorov?
If you want to continue discussing Fedorov vs. the world, go ahead and create a thread.

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03-13-2013, 02:28 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
If you want to continue discussing Fedorov vs. the world, go ahead and create a thread.


Actually, I would create such thread, if I thought that Fedorov is the No. 1 hockey player of all time.

But I only rank Sergei second. After Bob Nystrom.

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