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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread VI

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Old
03-14-2013, 10:34 AM
  #276
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
On the other hand, 2nd line was also the weakness of seventieslord's championships team.
A lot of past champs have had pedestrian second lines, actually. It's just one of those ATD things. I loved building 2nd lines - it was probably my favorite part of the draft. Out of all the ATD units I ever put together, Leclair - Stastny - Martinec (with Suchy on the 2nd defensive pair) is still my favorite. I always wanted to win the ATD with a firewagon team, but I realized pretty quickly that this was impossible, and so consigned myself to building firewagon second units, as it seemed like the part of the draft where one could get the most creative.

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03-14-2013, 10:36 AM
  #277
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A lot of past champs have had pedestrian second lines, actually. It's just one of those ATD things. I loved building 2nd lines - it was probably my favorite part of the draft. Out of all the ATD units I ever put together, Leclair - Stastny - Martinec (with Suchy on the 2nd defensive pair) is still my favorite. I always wanted to win the ATD with a firewagon team, but I realized pretty quickly that this was impossible, and so consigned myself to building firewagon second units, as it seemed like the part of the draft where one could get the most creative.
Sure! Now you tell me!

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03-14-2013, 10:38 AM
  #278
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It's ok though. I think all defence, but nothing on offencive side fits Lemaire's type of 4th liner.
Lemaire actually liked having crash and bang forth lines (the 1995 Devils actually had a 4th line called "The Crash Line" centered around Bobby Holik) that played a dump and chase and beat up your opponents game, while he had his top 3 lines play a strict trap/counterattack game.

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03-14-2013, 10:46 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Sure! Now you tell me!
If you had arrbez's charisma...but since you don't, no. If we give you the Cup this year will you promise to stop whining about not winning it last year the way you have been in this year's draft threads?

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03-14-2013, 10:51 AM
  #280
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If you had arrbez's charisma...but since you don't, no. If we give you the Cup this year will you promise to stop whining about not winning it last year the way you have been in this year's draft threads?
Methinks you are mistaking humour for whining.

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03-14-2013, 11:05 AM
  #281
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Don't know how this guy is still around... LW Johnny Wilson

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03-14-2013, 11:06 AM
  #282
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Don't know how this guy is still around... LW Johnny Wilson
Good pick, thought about picking him last night when I went with Smyth.

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Old
03-14-2013, 11:16 AM
  #283
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You'd better do a good bio, because that's the only way anyone would believe it.

I know that one Slovakian poster on HOH was really pushing Liba as a great two-way player.
Well, I guess that was because he was a great two-way player.

And just for starters, top 5 Golden Stick placements of Holik, Hlinka and Liba:

Holik: 2, 2, 3, 4
Hlinka: 1, 2, 4, 4
Liba: 1, 2, 2, 2, 4

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Old
03-14-2013, 11:21 AM
  #284
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Well, I guess that was because he was a great two-way player.

And just for starters, top 5 Golden Stick placements of Holik, Hlinka and Liba:

Holik: 2, 2, 3, 4
Hlinka: 1, 2, 4, 4
Liba: 1, 2, 2, 2, 4
The quality of the Czechoslovakian Elite League took a nosedive around 1980 for a variety of reasons, partly, but not entirely, due to defections to North America.

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Old
03-14-2013, 11:29 AM
  #285
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Don't know how this guy is still around... LW Johnny Wilson
Man....I like to consider myself a real hockey fan but there are so many players I don't know about.

The stats look pretty good, so does 4 Cups.....who is this guy comparable to?

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Old
03-14-2013, 11:38 AM
  #286
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Don't know how this guy is still around... LW Johnny Wilson
Fairly one-dimensional, isn't he? Pretty good stats though.

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Old
03-14-2013, 12:13 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
Man....I like to consider myself a real hockey fan but there are so many players I don't know about.

The stats look pretty good, so does 4 Cups.....who is this guy comparable to?
Some good quotes I found....

"(the) brush-cut Wilson only weighs 168 lbs but throws them around recklessly at times, hasn't missed a game in ten seasons of pro hockey, counting minor league time with Omaha and Indianapolis. Nor has he failed to appear in a playoff game, so his consecutive game record as a pro stretches back 760 games." (Montreal Gazette)

"Wilson scored in the first period when defenseman Red Kelly's screen shot caromed off his stick near the Boston net." (Windsor Daily Star)

"Wilson got the Red Wings closer when he tipped home Howe's pass the goalmouth near four-minute mark." (Windsor Daily Star)

"Rookie ****** ******* intercepted a Bruins pass and shoved the puck to Wilson who took two jabs right in front of the net before he slid it under goalie ********." (Windsor Daily Star)

"Wilson, whose vital statistics (5'10 168 lbs) are nothing out of the ordinary, is a remarkable physical specimen." (Windsor Daily Star)

So sounds like well Ryan Smyth... but with the bonus of four Cups and two top-tens (6,8) in goals

However what will be interesting to see is his leadership... seems from reading eahc time he was traded his new team immediately got better and made the playoffs... so it sounds like he is the consummate glue guy, and durable to boot... perfect for ATD fourth line

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03-14-2013, 12:18 PM
  #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
Don't know how this guy is still around... LW Johnny Wilson
Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
Man....I like to consider myself a real hockey fan but there are so many players I don't know about.

The stats look pretty good, so does 4 Cups.....who is this guy comparable to?
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Fairly one-dimensional, isn't he? Pretty good stats though.
Seems like he was a 2nd line LW behind Ted Lindsay during his first stint in Detroit, and then was probably the top LW for his team for Chicago, and then in his second stint in Detroit. Early VsX for his first stint in Detroit might underrate him because he wasn't a first liner, but here are his numbers above 50%:

69, 67, 56, 55

He didn't seem to bring any intangibles to the table, over than being an iron man and not missing games if you count that. Doesn't look like he was much of a contributor to the 4 cup teams he was on, with finishing 4th in scoring among teammates being his best finish. He did make one all star game based on merit, so there is something.

He got a 6th in Hart voting in 55-56 despite finishing 8th in goals and 32nd in points. He must have been doing something other than scoring to warrant that kind of recognition with 10 voting points. He was also 4th in LW AS voting that year. He looks to have received significant recognition for the Lady Byng trophy throughout his career, I think this was still during the time when receiving that trophy was seen as an honor and a great thing, but I'm not sure.

Considering all that, seems like a guy who is an okay scorer right now that had one strange voting year in 55-56, and not many intangibles that I know of.

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Old
03-14-2013, 12:20 PM
  #289
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Oh hey... this is something...

(Shawinigan Standard)

"After the one-third mark of the 1959-60 National Hockey League season, statistics on the players shots on goal were studied carefully, and it was discovered that Johnny Wilson of the Toronto Maple Leafs has the most accurate shot in the league. It only takes Wilson 3.33 shots to score a goal."

Full article because there is lots of good info in there

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Old
03-14-2013, 12:22 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post

He got a 6th in Hart voting in 55-56 despite finishing 8th in goals and 32nd in points. He must have been doing something other than scoring to warrant that kind of recognition with 10 voting points. He was also 4th in LW AS voting that year. He looks to have received significant recognition for the Lady Byng trophy throughout his career, I think this was still during the time when receiving that trophy was seen as an honor and a great thing, but I'm not sure.
I think that the Lady Byng was considered a major honor until the 1970s, when thuggery became in vogue. I think (but am not sure) that Don Cherry was the first coach who said he wouldn't want any of his players to win it.

I'm not sure if the Lady Byng was considered an honor second only to the Hart Trophy after World War 2 (like it was before the War), but it was still very prestigious throughout the Original 6.

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03-14-2013, 12:24 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
Oh hey... this is something...

(Shawinigan Standard)

"After the one-third mark of the 1959-60 National Hockey League season, statistics on the players shots on goal were studied carefully, and it was discovered that Johnny Wilson of the Toronto Maple Leafs has the most accurate shot in the league. It only takes Wilson 3.33 shots to score a goal."

Full article because there is lots of good info in there
Shooting percentage for the first third of the season?

Nobody even takes full season shooting percentage seriously anymore.

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03-14-2013, 12:33 PM
  #292
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Shooting percentage for the first third of the season?

Nobody even takes full season shooting percentage seriously anymore.
It's definitely not concrete... but it's interesting to see reporters and analysts of yesteryear trying their hand "advanced" metrics for the day... I don't think the NHL even tracked SOG so this would have been a massive undertaking... as you would figure the Hulls were SOG leaders but percentage wise it's two players you maybe would not think of. Maybe was more suited to Digging the Dirt but an interesting snapshot of game analysis at that time

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03-14-2013, 12:35 PM
  #293
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From AAA spare to ATD starter? I realize he was probably the best spare in AAA, and probably could have been a 1st liner, but that's a pretty huge jump. Did you find some new information?
*
We really did have an awesome team, eh?

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It's not important to figure out how good Connell is once you figure out just how bad Vernon is.
Bahaha! Exactly… I’m not huge on Connell either, he’s fine for this part of the draft, but I definitely prefer him to Vernon.

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I do think he's a step up from his contemporary Lorne Chabot, though.
*
Yes, clearly.

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On the other hand, 2nd line was also the weakness of seventieslord's championships team.
You mean “the least strong of all his strengths.”

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Personally, I think Lafontaine and Mogilny punch way above their weight around here because they are recent enough for many of us to have seen them, and they were greatly talented players.

However, in an ATD sense, both of them don't have many great seasons due to both injury and a sometimes lack of effort in Mogilny. They both fit nicely into that 6-7 year peak everyone seems to like as a sweet spot.

Their resumes were very thin to be carrying a second line imo.
*
One thing people need to keep in mind when talking about guys like this is that they were much better per-game players than raw percentage scores will show you. When they’re not playing they aren’t replaced with a black hole; a spare becomes active and the lineup shuffles. A player who can score 60 in 60 is still more valuable than a guy who can score 60 in 80, even if 60=60. Currently our preferred method of using “raw” totals while treating “per game” stats with borderline ridicule, doesn’t account for this.
*
As someone who rails against supposed “double standards”, you should be all over this! A guy like Crosby is valued almost as highly as he would be if he had played these 130 games that he missed. A guy like Turgeon… no consideration whatsoever to 110+ games of dominant hockey, instead, they get percentage scores in the 70 range and aren’t included among his best 7 seasons.
*
Lafontaine seemed to previously get all the “per game” credit in the world and thus got overrated, and then is falling back down as he starts to get hammered for having placements and percentage scores (both based on raw totals) that aren’t nearly as impressive as the picture most have of him. The truth about him is in the middle, though. As an example, in 1992 he was playing at an incredible level, just as high as he was in 1993, perhaps higher given the difference between the two seasons (FWIW, adjusted points per game says he was better in 1992) yet, that’s only his 4th best season by percentages and gets a rather weak 76% score, not even close to indicative of how he was actually playing.
*
It’s nice that we’re coming close to standardizing something, but at the same time we’re still dealing too much in absolutes. Personally, I don’t want to just know that players A and B are about even in raw production. It’s*much more important*to know that player B is actually 15% more potent offensively per game but tends to miss 13% of the games.

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They don't get the focus the first line does and they don't have the defensive responsibilities applied to them that people seem to automatically criticize 3rd and 4th lines about..
*
That’s true. My second line didn’t have anyone who could be singled out as “bad” in the Cowley/Apps/Bure/Drillon/Kerr sense, but there was certainly no one noteworthy defensively, but I don’t recall anyone ever pointing that out, either.

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Yeah, I have readily admitted Miller on my team doesn't add much of anything offensively, but even he has a fair bit more to offer offensively than those two.
*
Yes, obviously. By the way, if we’re talking about the worst offensive forwards in this thing, Bob Gainey has to be fairly close, decent career totals notwithstanding. Miller had better adjusted yearly and career totals than Gainey, and likely did it with less icetime as well.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
The quality of the Czechoslovakian Elite League took a nosedive around 1980 for a variety of reasons, partly, but not entirely, due to defections to North America.
*
Good point. We need an “adjusted golden hockey stick” that accounts for Czech players in north America. I’d be interested to see where Liba ranks after we subjectively slot in the players who were average or better in the NHL when he was starring overseas.

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Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
Man....I like to consider myself a real hockey fan but there are so many players I don't know about.

The stats look pretty good, so does 4 Cups.....who is this guy comparable to?
*
Harry Watson, but not as tough. Marty Pavelich, but more offense and less defense.
*
Anyone else?

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Old
03-14-2013, 12:38 PM
  #294
seventieslord
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Ok, isn't it will known that Wilson was very good defensively? I was actually pretty upset to miss out on him two years ago which left me biting my nails until I could pick Bridgman.

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03-14-2013, 12:44 PM
  #295
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Actually, one reason I coveted him was even strength offense... his stats are very strong one the fact that he was really on the pp is considered.

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03-14-2013, 12:47 PM
  #296
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One thing people need to keep in mind when talking about guys like this is that they were much better per-game players than raw percentage scores will show you. When they’re not playing they aren’t replaced with a black hole; a spare becomes active and the lineup shuffles. A player who can score 60 in 60 is still more valuable than a guy who can score 60 in 80, even if 60=60. Currently our preferred method of using “raw” totals while treating “per game” stats with borderline ridicule, doesn’t account for this.
I'm basically coming from the same place in saying that Lafontaine and Mogilny were very talented but for various reasons didn't put up great overall resumes.

But I'm not really sold that a guy who scores 60 in 60 is more valuable than a guy who scores 60 in 80. Especially if I am playing in game #61.

When we're talking about players at that type of level, any replacement is going to be far inferior and cause ripples of weakness throughout the lineup.

Quote:
As someone who rails against supposed “double standards”, you should be all over this! A guy like Crosby is valued almost as highly as he would be if he had played these 130 games that he missed. A guy like Turgeon… no consideration whatsoever to 110+ games of dominant hockey, instead, they get percentage scores in the 70 range and aren’t included among his best 7 seasons.
As a matter of fact I think you'll find me all over the place pooh poohing Crosby's partial seasons.

Call me when he does it over 75 games or more in a season..


Quote:
Lafontaine seemed to previously get all the “per game” credit in the world and thus got overrated, and then is falling back down as he starts to get hammered for having placements and percentage scores (both based on raw totals) that aren’t nearly as impressive as the picture most have of him. The truth about him is in the middle, though. As an example, in 1992 he was playing at an incredible level, just as high as he was in 1993, perhaps higher given the difference between the two seasons (FWIW, adjusted points per game says he was better in 1992) yet, that’s only his 4th best season by percentages and gets a rather weak 76% score, not even close to indicative of how he was actually playing.
He may have been playing better individually in 1992 but I'm quite unsure if his team was getting the value out of him that they did in 1993.

Quote:
It’s nice that we’re coming close to standardizing something, but at the same time we’re still dealing too much in absolutes. Personally, I don’t want to just know that players A and B are about even in raw production. It’s*much more important*to know that player B is actually 15% more potent offensively per game but tends to miss 13% of the games.
I think this is going to apply much more to lower rung players whose replacements are easier to come by than the special players who are particularly strong in any area.

Quote:
Yes, obviously. By the way, if we’re talking about the worst offensive forwards in this thing, Bob Gainey has to be fairly close, decent career totals notwithstanding. Miller had better adjusted yearly and career totals than Gainey, and likely did it with less icetime as well.
To be honest it hadn't even crossed my mind that Gainey's offense would be lower than Miller's when adjusted.

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03-14-2013, 01:09 PM
  #297
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One thing people need to keep in mind when talking about guys like this is that they were much better per-game players than raw percentage scores will show you. When they’re not playing they aren’t replaced with a black hole; a spare becomes active and the lineup shuffles. A player who can score 60 in 60 is still more valuable than a guy who can score 60 in 80, even if 60=60. Currently our preferred method of using “raw” totals while treating “per game” stats with borderline ridicule, doesn’t account for this.
I think the difference in value is pretty small, actually, especially for scoringline guys who were the offensive catalysts of their teams, like Turgeon and Lafontaine. Take one of those guys out of the lineup, and his linemates (and powerplay linemates) also get worse, so it's not a simple question of 60 + (20 games * replacement value) > 60 in 80. When the best offensive players on the team start missing serious time, it screws the whole system up. I am much more forgiving of secondary scorers or lower line guys with health problems and willing to accept them mostly on a per-game scoring basis with the assumption that they'll just miss time. But for guys who are meant to be the offensive leaders of their teams, it is not as simple as per-game production.

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03-14-2013, 01:43 PM
  #298
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The quality of the Czechoslovakian Elite League took a nosedive around 1980 for a variety of reasons, partly, but not entirely, due to defections to North America.
I think this issue is greatly overblown, to the point I would actually call it a myth - it was a handful of players at best. In fact, the 80s had grand total of 6 Czechoslovak NHLers that weren't over the hill and played more than a handful of games. Out of those, Peter Stastny was the only one better than Liba. Two others were good players, but much more one-dimensional, and the other three were significantly worse.

Anyway, I'll hope to cobble a bio together either tomorrow or next week (basically when I have time at work).

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03-14-2013, 01:44 PM
  #299
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I think this issue is greatly overblown, to the point I would actually call it a myth - it was a handful of players at best. In fact, the 80s had grand total of 6 Czechoslovak NHLers that weren't over the hill and played more than a handful of games. Out of those, Peter Stastny was the only one better than Liba. Two others were good players, but much more one-dimensional, and the other three were significantly worse.

Anyway, I'll hope to cobble a bio together either tomorrow or next week (basically when I have time at work).
So why did Czechoslovakia start getting blown out by the Soviets rather than often beating them?

I don't think defections were the only issue - it seems like hockey was no longer as much of a national priority in the 1980s for Czechslovakia,but I can't say for sure.

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03-14-2013, 01:54 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
So why did Czechoslovakia start getting blown out by the Soviets rather than often beating them?

I don't think defections were the only issue - it seems like hockey was no longer as much of a national priority in the 1980s for Czechslovakia,but I can't say for sure.
Didn't the Soviets and Czechs build their hockey teams through a dictatorial military-style programs? Communism was the only way that system worked, so when that died, so did their hockey programs.

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