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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread VI

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Old
03-22-2013, 12:08 AM
  #676
BillyShoe1721
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I thought I showed last draft that this guy was quite underrated now that extensive voting records came out, but I guess not considering he is being drafted later than last year. Philadelphia selects D Doug Barkley



4x Top 10 Norris Voting(5, 7, 9, 10*)
4x Top 13 All Star Voting(7, 12, 13, 13)
9th Hart Voting
3x Top 5 Goals Among Defensemen(1, 5, 5)
3x Top 7 Assists Among Defensemen(2, 5, 7)
4x Top 9 Points Among Defensemen(3, 4, 8, 9)
Of 4 full NHL seasons, the Red Wings reached the SC Finals in 3 of them

During 4 year peak(only 4 full years in NHL):

3rd in goals
3rd in assists
4th in points(90% of 2nd place Howell)

Quote:
Lethbridge, Alberta's Doug Barkley was a big and physical defenseman who started his NHL career at a late age and had it end far too early.

He could have become one of the most dominant defensemen of his time if it was not for a career ending eye injury.

In fact, he was so good that legendary hockey scribe Stan Fischler once compared Barkley to a latter day Larry Robinson.

"Tall, tough and tenacious, Barkley was a Larry Robinson before the latter arrived on the scene to redefine defensemen's play for the Montreal Canadiens," Fischler wrote.

After his All Star season in the WHL, Barkley was a hot commodity again in the NHL marketplace. The Hawks ended up trading the 26 year old to the Detroit Red Wings for 2 players - Len Lunde and John McKenzie - on June 5 1962.

Finally getting a chance to play in the NHL, Barkley responded positively by scoring 3 goals and 24 assists in 70 games in the '62-63 season. His performance finished second only to Toronto defenseman Kent Douglas in Calder Trophy balloting. Both Barkley and Douglas spent a long time in the minors before playing regularly in the NHL.

Barkley followed his rookie season with a promising second NHL campaign. Known for his size (6'2" 185lbs) and aggressiveness (he had 382 PIM in only 253 games), Doug added a bit of an offensive element to his game that he had previously shown in the WHL. Doug scored 11 times and assisted on 21 others.
http://redwingslegends.blogspot.com/...g-barkley.html

Quote:
Some critics might suggest it is illogical to place a player among the elite in franchise history if he only played 4 seasons for the Detroit Red Wings, but Doug Barkley deserves to be an exception.

Tall, tough and tenacious, Barkley was a Larry Robinson before the latter arrived on the scene to refine defensemen's play for the Montreal Canadiens a decade after Doug was forced to retire because of an eye injury.

A gifted defenseman during the NHL's six team era...

Handling offense as well as defense with consummate ease, Barkley was quickly touted as the find of the year
. During an era when defensemen played defense, Barkley led all backliners in scoring...As Doug's play improved, so did the Red Wings'. In 1964-65, Detroit finished on top of the NHL for the first time in 8 years and loomed as a playoff contender as long as Barkley patrolled the defense.

Until he suffered a career-ending eye injury, Doug Barkley was a towering force on the Detroit defense.

From his very first game as a big leaguer, Barkley proved that the Red Wings were wise in signing him. "My football training was a big help to me," he explained. "I had good timing and I could hit. I had a knack of bolstering our forwards. The other teams knew that I could hit, and if anyone on our club got into trouble, the opposition knew that I would back up our guys.

But, he is fondly remembered for his stint as one of the best defensemen ever to wear the Red Wings' uniform.
http://books.google.com/books?id=68q...arkley&f=false

Quote:
Barkley, a star defenseman for the Red Wings before losing an eye in a 1966 accident...
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+barkley&hl=en

Quote:
Team physician Dr. John Finley said Monday it will take another 5 or 6 days to determine the full extent of the eye injury to All-Star Detroit Red Wings defenseman Doug Barkley.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...+barkley&hl=en

Other than Wade Redden, Steve Duchesne(suspect), maybe Jack Portland, and my bottom pairing of Kevin Hatcher and Bob Armstrong, I believe(after a cursory look) that he has the best voting record since Duncan Keith & Dallas Smith were selected around 460, about 275 picks ago!!!!!!!!

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03-22-2013, 12:26 AM
  #677
TheDevilMadeMe
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Doug Barkley basically has an NHL career as long as Erik Karlsson. It might be fun to compare the two - Barkley does seem to have gotten consistent recognition across his short career, though he obviously doesn't have the one big season.

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03-22-2013, 02:35 AM
  #678
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The Pittsburgh Bankers select RW Pud Glass

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Old
03-22-2013, 02:51 AM
  #679
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Originally Posted by JFA87-66-99 View Post
The Pittsburgh Bankers select RW Pud Glass
He also played a lot of centre.

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03-22-2013, 03:03 AM
  #680
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
He also played a lot of centre.
A great spare who can play multiple positions and fill in occasionally anywhere from the 2nd to 4th line. I almost selected Pud Glass with my last 2 picks. Glad too see he was still on the board

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03-22-2013, 03:52 AM
  #681
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The tournament-by-tournament WC & Olympic stats for Vladimir Martinec, Vaclav Nedomansky and Milan Novy according to the Eliteprospects (http://www.eliteprospects.com/) site:

Vladimir Martinec
TournamentGPGAPTSPPG
1970 WC6 3-3  
1971 WC10 2 3 5  
1972 OG 6 4 2 6 
1972 WC104711 
1973 WC8156 
1974 WC109615 
1975 WC97411 
1976 OG67512 
1976 WC1091120 
1977 WC1061016 
1978 WC10448 
1979 WC7538 
1980 OG2112 
1981 WC8358 
Total11265661311.169642857

Vaclav Nedomansky
TournamentGPGAPTSPPG
1965 WC7 426  
1966 WC7 5 2 7  
1967 WC 7 1 2 3 
1968 OG7527 
1969 WC109211 
1970 WC1010717 
1971 WC108-8 
1972 OG68311 
1972 WC99615 
1973 WC109312 
1974 WC1010313 
Total9378321101.182795699

Milan Novy
TournamentGPGAPTSPPG
1975 WC10 448  
1976 OG6 7 2 9  
1976 WC10 9 6 15 
1977 WC1061016 
1978 WC94-4 
1979 WC5-22 
1980 OG67815 
1981 WC8628 
1982 WC10314 
Total744635811.094594595

Martinec: http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=42837
Nedomansky: http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=42854
Novy: http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=36252

There are only minor things that I don't agree with; e.g. I happen to know that Novy scored at least 1 assist in the 1978 WC. I don't know about Martinec's 1976 OG numbers either (12 pts, hmmm).

2 other sites agree with these numbers (points) almost 100 %:
http://www.goironpigs.com/?p=1548 (subtract the CC points from Martinec & Novy)
http://kotisivu.dnainternet.fi/ruskeeah/

Maybe all 3 have the same source or something? So what, I'm absolutely sure they are very close to the truth.

I think it's fair to say that both Martinec and Nedomansky have a sizeable edge in international play over Novy.

The most striking thing for me is the disparity between Nedomansky's goals and assists (78 g and 32 a); he certainly doesn't have a reputation of being a great playmaker, but I didn't realize the numbers show it so clearly. Based on those, he was a 'pure goal-scorer'. But maybe the players weren't credited for 2nd assists so much in the late 1960s? However, Nedomansky's PPG is (marginally) higher than Martinec's.


Last edited by VMBM: 03-22-2013 at 08:11 AM.
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03-22-2013, 04:12 AM
  #682
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Thanks for doing that, VMBM. I think it's obvious that Martinec has an International advantage over Novy, but is it clear that Nedomansky does (other than longevity)? Their international careers are set perfectly so they don't overlap, and I don't know enough about the World Championships and Olympics to know if you can compare points-per-game for non-overlapping careers. I know the quality of the tournaments got more competitive in the early/mid 70s, but I don't know about the scoring.

Those stats also don't include the 1976 Canada Cup, where Novy was the best Czech player.

The one big downside to Novy's career is lack of longevity as a top player compared to the other two. If you remove his final tournament, the 1982 World Championships, he has 77 points in 61 games (1.20 ppg).

Another thing I notice is that Vladimir Martinec must have been an outstanding playmaker. The tournaments of the era always feature more goals than assists - they probably weren't counting secondary assists. Based on their ratios, it looks like Martinec was good at goal scoring, but was definitely a playmaker first, Novy was pretty balanced (his ratio seems pretty average among international tournaments), and Nedomansky was definitely a goal scorer. If the tournaments were under-counting assists relative to the NHL, then Martinec would be underrated by the point totals and Nedomansky would be overrated by them.

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03-22-2013, 04:33 AM
  #683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Thanks for doing that, VMBM. I think it's obvious that Martinec has an International advantage over Novy, but is it clear that Nedomansky does (other than longevity)? Their international careers are set perfectly so they don't overlap, and I don't know enough about the World Championships and Olympics to know if you can compare points-per-game for non-overlapping careers. I know the quality of the tournaments got more competitive in the early/mid 70s, but I don't know about the scoring.

Those stats also don't include the 1976 Canada Cup, where Novy was the best Czech player.

The one big downside to Novy's career is lack of longevity as a top player compared to the other two. If you remove his final tournament, the 1982 World Championships, he has 77 points in 61 games (1.20 ppg).

Another thing I notice is that Vladimir Martinec must have been an outstanding playmaker. The tournaments of the era always feature more goals than assists - they probably weren't counting secondary assists. Based on their ratios, it looks like Martinec was good at goal scoring, but was definitely a playmaker first, Novy was pretty balanced (his ratio seems pretty average among international tournaments), and Nedomansky was definitely a goal scorer. If the tournaments were under-counting assists relative to the NHL, then Martinec would be underrated by the point totals and Nedomansky would be overrated by them.
Don't mention it. And I'm not going to pretend that I would have bothered to do all this if it hadn't been my favourite player who got such a 'raw deal' previously (anger drove me ). But seriously, I was genuinely shocked about the those stats in the Novy bio; as soon as I saw them I thought "these can't be right", but didn't realize at first that they were so far off. I don't know if it's SIHR or whatever, but... I hope that one day we have a truly reliable site where you can get the stats for European players without much headache.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that Martinec indeed is 'da man'. I have to say, though, that in Finland, Nedomansky is a somewhat more legendary name. Maybe people remember great goal-scorers better or something? He was also big and good-looking, i.e. had a much more impressive physical presence than Martinec (and Novy, for that matter), and maybe that's got something to do with it also.

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Old
03-22-2013, 04:39 AM
  #684
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
I'm becoming more and more convinced that Martinec indeed is 'da man'. I have to say, though, that in Finland, Nedomansky is a somewhat more legendary name. Maybe people remember great goal-scorers better or something? He was also big and good-looking, i.e. had a much more impressive physical presence than Martinec (and Novy, for that matter), and maybe that's got something to do with it also.
Yeah, it's Frank Boucher syndrome. Chics dig the big goalscorers.

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03-22-2013, 05:07 AM
  #685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
I'm becoming more and more convinced that Martinec indeed is 'da man'. I have to say, though, that in Finland, Nedomansky is a somewhat more legendary name. Maybe people remember great goal-scorers better or something? He was also big and good-looking, i.e. had a much more impressive physical presence than Martinec (and Novy, for that matter), and maybe that's got something to do with it also.
Of course it should also be added that Nedomansky's and especially Novy's Czechoslovak league stats are clearly more impressive than Martinec's - as we know it, at least. It's another debate, though, how much Novy, for example, benefited from his teammates and how much stronger a team Poldi Kladno actually was; was it comparable to CSKA in Soviet Union etc.


Last edited by VMBM: 03-22-2013 at 05:13 AM.
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03-22-2013, 05:17 AM
  #686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Don't mention it. And I'm not going to pretend that I would have bothered to do all this if it hadn't been my favourite player who got such a 'raw deal' previously (anger drove me ). But seriously, I was genuinely shocked about the those stats in the Novy bio; as soon as I saw them I thought "these can't be right", but didn't realize at first that they were so far off. I don't know if it's SIHR or whatever, but... I hope that one day we have a truly reliable site where you can get the stats for European players without much headache.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that Martinec indeed is 'da man'. I have to say, though, that in Finland, Nedomansky is a somewhat more legendary name. Maybe people remember great goal-scorers better or something? He was also big and good-looking, i.e. had a much more impressive physical presence than Martinec (and Novy, for that matter), and maybe that's got something to do with it also.
SIHR seems to be rife with errors when it comes to European hockey, which is pretty poor form for a pay site. They really need a European expert or something. Unfortunately, none of the European sites seem to have sortable databases (and a lot of them aren't in English!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Of course it should also be added that Nedomansky's and especially Novy's Czechoslovak league stats are clearly more impressive than Martinec's - as we know it, at least. It's another debate, though, how much Novy, for example, benefited from his teammates and how much stronger a team Poldi Kladno actually was; was it comparable to CSKA in Soviet Union etc.
Right. As of now, I'm pretty confident ranking the great Czech(oslovaka) forwards of the 1970s as

1) Martinec

2/3) Novy/Nedomansky - I'm still honestly not sure which one I like better, and it's tough to compare when Nedomansky left right as Novy got going. Nedomansky has more "ATD value" as a guy playing the rarer position though. Edit: I guess if you're a huge fan of longevity, you might pick Nedomansky, but I'm not entirely convinced there. I mean, as you say, if we just take their domestic stats at face value, Novy is comfortably better than any of them.

4/5) Hlinka/Jiri Holik - Again, still not sure which I like better, though Holik should have more ATD value as a left wing who brings a strong two-way game.

As a group, they've been underrated in the ATD compared to the Soviets for a long time, but that seems to be changing.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 03-22-2013 at 05:25 AM.
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03-22-2013, 05:28 AM
  #687
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With our final pick, Ray Ferarro

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03-22-2013, 06:49 AM
  #688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
There are only minor things that I don't agree with; e.g. Novy scored at least 1 assist in the 1978 WC. I don't know about Martinec's 1976 OG numbers either (12 pts, hmmm).
Martinec's 1976 OG total includes the 14-1 Qualification game vs Bulgaria as the 6th game.

http://hokej.snt.cz/oh/oh1976.html

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03-22-2013, 07:05 AM
  #689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
SIHR seems to be rife with errors when it comes to European hockey, which is pretty poor form for a pay site. They really need a European expert or something. Unfortunately, none of the European sites seem to have sortable databases (and a lot of them aren't in English!)



Right. As of now, I'm pretty confident ranking the great Czech(oslovaka) forwards of the 1970s as

1) Martinec

2/3) Novy/Nedomansky - I'm still honestly not sure which one I like better, and it's tough to compare when Nedomansky left right as Novy got going. Nedomansky has more "ATD value" as a guy playing the rarer position though. Edit: I guess if you're a huge fan of longevity, you might pick Nedomansky, but I'm not entirely convinced there. I mean, as you say, if we just take their domestic stats at face value, Novy is comfortably better than any of them.

4/5) Hlinka/Jiri Holik - Again, still not sure which I like better, though Holik should have more ATD value as a left wing who brings a strong two-way game.

As a group, they've been underrated in the ATD compared to the Soviets for a long time, but that seems to be changing.
One interesting question I suddenly thought of; even though Novy was born in 1951 (only about 2 years later than Martinec), his first WC was as late as 1975 (Martinec's in 1970). Why wasn't he 'picked' sooner for the national team, even though he was a big scorer in the domestic league already in the early 1970s? Did the coaches see some weaknesses in him or something? I think it's fair to assume, though, that he would've been better than some other players on the ntl team already before the 1974-75 season. I wonder if anyone has some insight to this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
Martinec's 1976 OG total includes the 14-1 Qualification game vs Bulgaria as the 6th game.

http://hokej.snt.cz/oh/oh1976.html
This is also one fairly frustrating thing about the Olympic stats; some sources count those qualifiers and some don't. Personally I wouldn't, but

Anyway, good catch.

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03-22-2013, 07:49 AM
  #690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
One interesting question I suddenly thought of; even though Novy was born in 1951 (only about 2 years later than Martinec), his first WC was as late as 1975 (Martinec's in 1970). Why wasn't he 'picked' sooner for the national team, even though he was a big scorer in the domestic league already in the early 1970s? Did the coaches see some weaknesses in him or something? I think it's fair to assume, though, that he would've been better than some other players on the ntl team already before the 1974-75 season. I wonder if anyone has some insight to this.
The quotes about Novy make him sound less naturally or obviously talented (less flashy?) and perhaps harder working than comparable European stars. Maybe his talent wasn't obvious until he proved himself in the domestic league for a few years. Just educated speculation though.

Edit: He was perhaps something of a late bloomer too, as 1972-73 seems to have been his first relevant season as a player. He was 22 years old, so it wasn't really that late. Czechoslovakia won the World Championships gold in 1972, breaking the USSR's string of 10 in a row, so it would make sense that the Czechslovaks might have wanted to keep that team together for a little longer.


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03-22-2013, 08:45 AM
  #691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Doug Barkley basically has an NHL career as long as Erik Karlsson. It might be fun to compare the two - Barkley does seem to have gotten consistent recognition across his short career, though he obviously doesn't have the one big season.
Doesn't it say something that Barkley was able to step in right in his first season with Detroit, and was voted 9th in Norris voting? He was 26 years old by then, and I think it's reasonable to assume that he was a quality NHL defenseman before then, but was stuck behind Pilote, Vasko, and St. Laurent for the Blackhawks.

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03-22-2013, 09:05 AM
  #692
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I thought I showed last draft that this guy was quite underrated now that extensive voting records came out, but I guess not considering he is being drafted later than last year. Philadelphia selects D Doug Barkley
[/B]
Oh my, I'd completely forgotten about this guy. I vaguely remember him from my youth....I think he had some confrontations against the sad sack Bruins at the time?

Looks like he woulda/coulda/shoulda been a quality 2nd pairing guy. Wonder how he would have played out going into the expansion while hitting his peak if he hadn't gotten injured.

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03-22-2013, 09:18 AM
  #693
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With our final pick, Ray Ferarro
Johnny, If I were you I'd start the assassination thread and get some early feedback on what everyone thinks of your team.

Modo and myself are the next closest teams to being complete and that is barring possible trades. Due to the incredibly slow pace we've been experiencing, it may not be a terrible idea to post the thread and your team because you are finished completely.

I'd definitely review your team.

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03-22-2013, 09:37 AM
  #694
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Hershey drafts goaltender Tom Paton, the first great goaltender in hockey history, winning the first ever Stanley Cup in 1893, nine years after he had won hockey's first award, medals in 1885 when he backstopped the winning team in the Montreal Winter Carnival, posting three shutouts in four games, including one in the final. He again won the carnival championship two years later, then the championship of the Amateur Hockey Association of Canada (AHAC) in 1888, 1889, 1890, 1891, 1892 and 1893. While it was common for hockey players to retire early - Mike Grant at age 28 and Graham Drinkwater at 24 as two examples of many - Paton actually began goaltending at age 30 and had a successful nine-year career (six years with the lowest goals against average), ending with a 7-1 record and the Stanley Cup in 1893. Ultimate Hockey says Paton deserved the Vezina in 1888, 1889, 1890, 1891 and 1893 (they didn't cover pre-1887) and that he deserved the Hart in 1889 as the best player in all of hockey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette, January 30, 1893
At the start the puck was carried down to the Montreal end of the ice and shot after shot was made at the goal, but Paton stopped them with his hands, stick or feet. He seemed to be in every part of the goals at once, and every time the puck was shot in it was as speedily returned, and finally Cameron scooped it up to the other end of the rink.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette Jan 3, 1935
Paton was a wizard, Allan Cameron says, at stopping shots.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeygods.com
Thomas Laird Paton (1854 – February 10, 1909),.. played the position of Goaltender for the Montreal HC (Montreal AAA) and was a member of the first Stanley Cup Winning Team in 1893 - Tom was a pioneer goaltender in organized Hockey.. a founding member of the Montreal Amateur Athletic Association Hockey team (Montreal HC).. regarded in many history texts as being undefeated in 1890 and 1891..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey-Notes.com
“He was a stellar goalkeeper, putting together solid efforts from 1887 through the 1894 season. The short time he did spend playing for the AAA was well spent indeed. He was, simply put, a gem.

In the 1889 final match, the AAA bashed the Montreal Victorias 6-1, thanks in large part to his work between the pipes. According to records, he singlehandedly kept the AAA in the game long enough to ensure the victory.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey-Notes.com on 1st Stanley Cup in 1893
“After losing its first match to Ottawa, the AAA swept its remaining seven games to finish ahead of the Amateur Hockey Association of Canada pack. He was rock-solid between the pipes, or "flags," leading all net-men with a 2.25 goals-against average”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey-Notes.com
“The 1888 schedule culminated in an exciting one-game playoff between the Montreal AAA and Montreal Victorias. The former took the title, winning 2-1 on the strength of some fine goaltending by him.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Gazette, January 14, 1888
... Paton was on the alerts and sent it down only to be returned to him to defend his charge which he did well.. Paton was keeping a sharp lookout it was sent up again where another spell of open play occurred...
Hockey's first recorded award, medals to the champion goaltender of the 1885 Montreal Winter Carnival:


The first Stanley Cup championship ring of Tom Paton's from 1893:


Last edited by VanIslander: 03-22-2013 at 09:46 AM.
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03-22-2013, 11:29 AM
  #695
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03-22-2013, 12:18 PM
  #696
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I can't help but to see a bunny as the logo on those jerseys...

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03-22-2013, 12:35 PM
  #697
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadArcand View Post
I can't help but to see a bunny as the logo on those jerseys...
The Winged Wheelers of Montreal were said to be the inspiration for the Red Wings of Detroit.




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03-22-2013, 12:38 PM
  #698
MadArcand
We do not sow
 
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I know, but on the team photo, the guys in the upper row have logos without the top hole visible, making quite clear eyes and nose...

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03-22-2013, 01:40 PM
  #699
tony d
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I think JFA has been skipped and Billy is now up.

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03-22-2013, 01:54 PM
  #700
JFA87-66-99
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The Pittsburgh. Bankers select LW Vsevolod Bobrov. Please pm the next GM up

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