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The Canucks are in a tailspin

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Old
03-11-2013, 08:27 PM
  #301
Lucbourdon
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Originally Posted by Flamer12 View Post
I hate the guy. I mean really really hate the guy. However, they really miss Kesler. He is an incredible player that adds offence, defence and some toughness. Did I mention I really don't like him.
Sums it up.

he is the engine of the team.

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Old
03-11-2013, 08:28 PM
  #302
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Bootup sequence initiated...
Vancouver Canucks bash thread recognized...
Failure by opposing fans to recognize positives of Vancouver Canucks affirmed...
Cognitive disrespect to boost self-ego of one's particular team that is associated with their place of birth... noted...

Trying to compute human disagreeables...
Vancouver Canucks still in playoffs... confirmed...
Reigning President Trophy winners... confirmed...
Possess a number of key talents other teams secretly crave... confirmed...

Readjusting computation based on facts received from statistical databases...

SYSTEM... OVERL... FAILUR>R>...

GURU MEDITATION ERROR 503 503


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Old
03-11-2013, 08:37 PM
  #303
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And a Habs fan's post with nothing to boast of as of late.

I like the Canadiens a lot, but your post was ignorant and stupid.
They're even worse when we're a terrible team.

It seems Vancouver lacks confidence + Kesler is gone + players not scoring.

Where they lack confidence, I don't know. Could very well be this whole saga of Luongo being all but dealt to being the starter to losing his job to now back in a fight for it.

Vancouver is a hockey team, not a ****ing circus.

Trade Lu, or Schneider. Get more depth and have Lack as the backup. It will help settle everyone's nerves imo.

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Old
03-11-2013, 08:44 PM
  #304
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I agree with that poster earlier who said they over-reacted and tried to fix something that wasn't broken.

I live in B.C and the organization/fans just didn't take losing to the Bruins well. The Canucks were dominant team that year built on skill. After the loss to the Bruins they decided they needed to get bigger/tougher at the expense of that skill.

Losing guys like Hodgson, Samuelsson and Ehrhoff really hurt. Malhotra was also a key player for them.
Every team losses players from year to year with injuries, the lack of developing young players recently is part of the problem the Canucks are having which leads to their problems of secondary scoring.

The real problem is that the Canucks aren't as good as the hype.

The Sedins are aging and are already put in the best position in all of the NHL to succeed with 70% offensive zone starts. Even with that they are only around top 20 in scoring. They are aging and their production has dropped for 2 straight years from their peak.

After that the scoring is incocnsistent and can't be relied on to any degree when they need it, even with Kesler in the lineup.

Too many people focus on the fact that they took Boston to game 7 in the playoffs 2 years ago. The way they lost should have red alarm sirens going on in most organizations but in Vancouver, with the weak division, it's status quo.

One can see it in their play, there is a lack of desperation and they can't just flick the switch like a Chicago or Detroit or Pittsburgh can.

Maybe Kesler gets healthy.

Maybe Edler finds his game.

Maybe Gillis trades a goalie for something he needs.

Maybe their window is closed and they should start the rebuild after the season is over, anything less than final 4 means they need to rebuild as the cupboard is empty on the farm.

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Old
03-11-2013, 09:15 PM
  #305
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Kassian for Hodgson. Bet that one is burning quite a bit now. Vancouver would be so much better.

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Old
03-11-2013, 09:25 PM
  #306
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Bad execution on PPs dragging the Canucks down. If we get back to being the #1 PP in the league (which may require healthy Kesler), this team is a contender again. That doesn't mean there aren't personnel changes or coaching shakeups that could benefit the team.

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Old
03-11-2013, 09:27 PM
  #307
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Kassian for Hodgson. Bet that one is burning quite a bit now. Vancouver would be so much better.
we could definitely use him on the PP

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Old
03-11-2013, 09:40 PM
  #308
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I miss our 2nd line of Demitra Sundin kesler

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Old
03-11-2013, 09:42 PM
  #309
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Chrono Trigger rules.

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Old
03-11-2013, 09:54 PM
  #310
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Edler has been worse then anyone could have possibly imagined.

Lacking youthful skill.

Lack of flexibility. The Sedins do some great things together but because they have to play together all the time it limits options.

Plus they are in a slump currently, I can't seem them being this bad all year.

Getting older.

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03-11-2013, 10:25 PM
  #311
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Would it be worthwhile to, dare i say, split the Sedins up? Spread the wealth a little bit? I dont know who'd be passing to Sedin if its not the other Sedin but historically they've played pretty well without eachother right?

As much as i love watching the nucks struggle (their tears are delicious by the way) from an objective standpoint maybe spreading the wealth would be best? Too bad about Edler playing like hot garbage. Has he just not been the same since the LA series?

This very well could just be biased ignorance here, and please correct me if i'm wrong, but having watched the Canucks sporadically over the last few years it seems like they dont put as much value on skill as they should. They seemed content with having the Sedins + Occasional Kesler and decided not to go out and get more guys with greater offensive talent.

They were one of the best post-lockout offensive and PP teams i've ever seen in 2010-11 but they had the Sedins playing out of their mind and a 40 goal Kesler, those things are diminishing right now and they're really hurting because of it. They were out muscled by Boston and as a response, they sacrificed skill (Hodgson) to add grit (Kassian) to a team that already has proven to be a physical team when needed. Now they have no center depth, no cap space, and very few prospects.

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Old
03-11-2013, 10:28 PM
  #312
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I don't think it's Vigneault's fault, though what do I know? Their success was puzzling to me; they were so good but their roster on paper never impressed me more than other teams, I thought they had really good depth the year they went to the finals, they probably should have won it then, that was probably their chance. I thought the key to their success must be coaching. Now they have key injuries

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Old
03-11-2013, 10:34 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by ronnyweed View Post
If kesler gone is the reason for this "tailspin" then the penguins making the playoffs the year crosby and malkin were injured should be heralded as the greatest team in history.

considering the preseason hype behind having 2 top 5 goalies and the 2 best offensive players in the west and the deepest D in the league, 1 forward should not break your season.
1 forward out, 1 dman out, 1 coach who needs to go.

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Old
03-11-2013, 10:38 PM
  #314
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Would it be worthwhile to, dare i say, split the Sedins up? Spread the wealth a little bit? I dont know who'd be passing to Sedin if its not the other Sedin but historically they've played pretty well without eachother right?

As much as i love watching the nucks struggle (their tears are delicious by the way) from an objective standpoint maybe spreading the wealth would be best? Too bad about Edler playing like hot garbage. Has he just not been the same since the LA series?

This very well could just be biased ignorance here, and please correct me if i'm wrong, but having watched the Canucks sporadically over the last few years it seems like they dont put as much value on skill as they should. They seemed content with having the Sedins + Occasional Kesler and decided not to go out and get more guys with greater offensive talent.

They were one of the best post-lockout offensive and PP teams i've ever seen in 2010-11 but they had the Sedins playing out of their mind and a 40 goal Kesler, those things are diminishing right now and they're really hurting because of it. They were out muscled by Boston and as a response, they sacrificed skill (Hodgson) to add grit (Kassian) to a team that already has proven to be a physical team when needed. Now they have no center depth, no cap space, and very few prospects.
Kesler was scoring 40 goals and the Sedins won back to back art ross trophies. Gee, I wonder why the didn't go an get guys with more skill.

Can't blame Gillis for poor center depth when 2 of his guys are on IR (Kesler and Malholtra). Can definitely blame him for being dumb even to toss Hodgson away with plugging the obvious hole afterwards.

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Old
03-11-2013, 10:42 PM
  #315
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The whole goalie situation isn't helping.

Can't believe Gilles turned down Bozak + Kadri + pick at the draft for Lu according to Dreger. Would of made them a much better team right now.
He didn't. The rumor goes Gillis wanted Kadri and Burke/Nonis refused to add him. The draft rumor for Luke Schenn.

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Old
03-11-2013, 10:47 PM
  #316
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Missing 2nd line centre, missing any 3rd line centre at all, missing bieksa, edler playing like crap, lapierre quietly having a ****** season, booth not scoring, coaching is terrible, goaltending not terrible but not good enough to survive with such a lack of goal support.

good things about this team right now:

Hansen
Raymond
Higgins
Sedins
Tanev
Garrison (IMO)

If I had any belief whatsoever in the coaching staff (i don't), I'd say that this team is a 3rd line centre trade and a healthy roster playing even at a decent level away from being one of the best teams in the league. Unfortunately, the incompetent coaching and to some extent GM has robbed this team of the identity that many people still associate it with.

In my eyes, the canucks can pretty much pack it in this season if they aren't gonna fire vigneault. The problems with this team aren't gonna be fixed by winning a couple games. This team needs to attack again.

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Old
03-11-2013, 10:51 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by serge2k View Post
Kesler was scoring 40 goals and the Sedins won back to back art ross trophies. Gee, I wonder why the didn't go an get guys with more skill.

Can't blame Gillis for poor center depth when 2 of his guys are on IR (Kesler and Malholtra). Can definitely blame him for being dumb even to toss Hodgson away with plugging the obvious hole afterwards.
Its not only that they didn't try and get guys with more skill, its that they gave away skill at a very valuable position to add unneeded toughness. Kassian is still young but if he keeps playing the way he has the past 10-15 games the kid has Bollig clone written all over him.

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Old
03-11-2013, 11:02 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
He didn't. The rumor goes Gillis wanted Kadri and Burke/Nonis refused to add him. The draft rumor for Luke Schenn.
Yup. People in Ontario just want to use this oppurtunity to pick on Mike Gillis by saying. "He got greedy. Now its too late"

Brian Burke already said it himself, he did not want to trade away Kadri. The best he did was Luke Schenn a 1st round pick and a 2nd round pick. It also wouldn't have gone through anyways, Luongo didn't want to waive his NTC to Toronto. Everyone wins

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Old
03-11-2013, 11:04 PM
  #319
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Its not only that they didn't try and get guys with more skill, its that they gave away skill at a very valuable position to add unneeded toughness. Kassian is still young but if he keeps playing the way he has the past 10-15 games the kid has Bollig clone written all over him.

That's fine, but we still had to trade him. We had no choice. He put himself ahead of the team. Mike Gillis don't want players like that on the team. We offered him to 5 different teams. Kassian for Hodgson is a fair trade. Lets not forget Buffalo Sabres are in 2nd last place in the East, so with or without him, wouldn't really make a difference.

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Old
03-11-2013, 11:18 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by xX Hot Fuss View Post
Would it be worthwhile to, dare i say, split the Sedins up? Spread the wealth a little bit? I dont know who'd be passing to Sedin if its not the other Sedin but historically they've played pretty well without eachother right?

As much as i love watching the nucks struggle (their tears are delicious by the way) from an objective standpoint maybe spreading the wealth would be best? Too bad about Edler playing like hot garbage. Has he just not been the same since the LA series?

This very well could just be biased ignorance here, and please correct me if i'm wrong, but having watched the Canucks sporadically over the last few years it seems like they dont put as much value on skill as they should. They seemed content with having the Sedins + Occasional Kesler and decided not to go out and get more guys with greater offensive talent.

They were one of the best post-lockout offensive and PP teams i've ever seen in 2010-11 but they had the Sedins playing out of their mind and a 40 goal Kesler, those things are diminishing right now and they're really hurting because of it. They were out muscled by Boston and as a response, they sacrificed skill (Hodgson) to add grit (Kassian) to a team that already has proven to be a physical team when needed. Now they have no center depth, no cap space, and very few prospects.
That would only serve to worsen our already woefully inept scoring. The Sedins have difficulty developing chemistry with other players, in particular due to their cycle game. Henrik is so accustom to blind and quick passes, the majority of new linemates simply cannot read what he'll do. This is often why Burrows is a stable on their line. He knows how to read what the Sedins and their unique cycle game. Kassian displayed traits reminiscent of Burrows or Kesler with the Sedins but after a temporary skid, AV has seen fit to split them up and that line has never since the light of day since.

Your observation is not off though. AV coaches players to play his system instead of adapting his system to their strength. Guys like Higgins, Raymond and Booth are forced into a variant "Sedin-lite" cycle game they cannot hope to succeed, hence why our it appears we do not emphasis skill. Garrison is arguably our best example of a underutilized asset. Henrik is a phenomenal passer and use to setup Salo for rockets. You would think the adjust would be simple, non? Nope. We have never once attempted to tee up Garrison's slapper. You know, even better is Lapierre or Ebbett on the second line. Imagine one of them centering Kane, Hossa or Sharp. Odds are they will all suck for it (Okay, Hossa may just will the line to success but Hossa's not human)

Our problem derives from precisely what your last paragraph said. We were an absolute dominate team, thus becoming watched by everyone else in the league. And from our template their system were adapted to break down ours. There was actually a graph demonstrating how unique the Canucks style was upon its inception. Unfortunately, the coaching staff is obstinate to a damn fault and refuses to adapt themselves. We may be the only team who plays almost identical to our champion season despite a good amount of those tactics having become easily predictable; look no further then during Detroit's annihilation. They had us so down to a science, we were calling plays before they even happened because half our board knew exactly what we would do. Chicago has done similar, which is why Hossa practically one manned our whole line.

Teams know we will always attempt the now useless long pass and leave our defensemen on an island. They know we will dump the puck and attempt to cycle down low, especially if the Sedins are out - it's all the ever do now. They know whenever our depth lines are out, we typically do not use them for offensive orientated roles. And finally, they know on the powerplay, we will perpetually puck cycle, hesitant before any slapshot and probably miss.

We are so predictable it borders on fascinating because AV may be the only one who cannot see it.

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Old
03-11-2013, 11:45 PM
  #321
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Meh ... they're struggling with the weird and exotic systems Vigneult and the boys have decided to implement, along with fitting in a couple of new (ish) players and the injuries are only causing trouble because the coach keeps scrambling the lines.

The whole season will be like this. win/lose ... They'll make the playoffs once french Coach settles down and let's them play to their strengths. Not sure why he's being such a noodle, but that strikes me as the main problem.

Players are trying their best, but they look confused more often than not. They're lacking that confidence in knowing where they are on the ice and where to move the puck quickly without thinking. It will come.

The rosters as it is, is more than enough to win a cup. The players just need to play like a unit. They'll solve the PP and PK as well by the end of the season, and by then all the Canuck fans will look like patchy, hairless mutants and everyone else will be writing them off in the first round. I expect a much different result.

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03-11-2013, 11:47 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
That would only serve to worsen our already woefully inept scoring. The Sedins have difficulty developing chemistry with other players, in particular due to their cycle game. Henrik is so accustom to blind and quick passes, the majority of new linemates simply cannot read what he'll do. This is often why Burrows is a stable on their line. He knows how to read what the Sedins and their unique cycle game. Kassian displayed traits reminiscent of Burrows or Kesler with the Sedins but after a temporary skid, AV has seen fit to split them up and that line has never since the light of day since.

Your observation is not off though. AV coaches players to play his system instead of adapting his system to their strength. Guys like Higgins, Raymond and Booth are forced into a variant "Sedin-lite" cycle game they cannot hope to succeed, hence why our it appears we do not emphasis skill. Garrison is arguably our best example of a underutilized asset. Henrik is a phenomenal passer and use to setup Salo for rockets. You would think the adjust would be simple, non? Nope. We have never once attempted to tee up Garrison's slapper. You know, even better is Lapierre or Ebbett on the second line. Imagine one of them centering Kane, Hossa or Sharp. Odds are they will all suck for it (Okay, Hossa may just will the line to success but Hossa's not human)

Our problem derives from precisely what your last paragraph said. We were an absolute dominate team, thus becoming watched by everyone else in the league. And from our template their system were adapted to break down ours. There was actually a graph demonstrating how unique the Canucks style was upon its inception. Unfortunately, the coaching staff is obstinate to a damn fault and refuses to adapt themselves. We may be the only team who plays almost identical to our champion season despite a good amount of those tactics having become easily predictable; look no further then during Detroit's annihilation. They had us so down to a science, we were calling plays before they even happened because half our board knew exactly what we would do. Chicago has done similar, which is why Hossa practically one manned our whole line.

Teams know we will always attempt the now useless long pass and leave our defensemen on an island. They know we will dump the puck and attempt to cycle down low, especially if the Sedins are out - it's all the ever do now. They know whenever our depth lines are out, we typically do not use them for offensive orientated roles. And finally, they know on the powerplay, we will perpetually puck cycle, hesitant before any slapshot and probably miss.

We are so predictable it borders on fascinating because AV may be the only one who cannot see it.
Very well thought out and expressed post. Pleasure to read.

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Old
03-11-2013, 11:48 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Every team losses players from year to year with injuries, the lack of developing young players recently is part of the problem the Canucks are having which leads to their problems of secondary scoring.

The real problem is that the Canucks aren't as good as the hype.

The Sedins are aging and are already put in the best position in all of the NHL to succeed with 70% offensive zone starts. Even with that they are only around top 20 in scoring. They are aging and their production has dropped for 2 straight years from their peak.

After that the scoring is incocnsistent and can't be relied on to any degree when they need it, even with Kesler in the lineup.

Too many people focus on the fact that they took Boston to game 7 in the playoffs 2 years ago. The way they lost should have red alarm sirens going on in most organizations but in Vancouver, with the weak division, it's status quo.

One can see it in their play, there is a lack of desperation and they can't just flick the switch like a Chicago or Detroit or Pittsburgh can.

Maybe Kesler gets healthy.

Maybe Edler finds his game.

Maybe Gillis trades a goalie for something he needs.

Maybe their window is closed and they should start the rebuild after the season is over, anything less than final 4 means they need to rebuild as the cupboard is empty on the farm.
Good post. Suprisingly subjective.

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Old
03-12-2013, 12:01 AM
  #324
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As a Hawks fan I feel like VAN isn't bad, just slumping. I'll admit to being confused by the Hodgson trade, and also disagree with acquiring Booth... but overall I feel like its a solid roster. Only part that really underwhelms a little is the blue line... but even then it seems like it's more due to performance issues than lack of talent.

Obv the team is stacked at goal, and IMO this is a team that could benefit from having three really strong centers. One of Luongo or Schneider really should be moved... neither one is backup quality and IMO if you have one of those guys always on the bench that's just wasting assets.

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03-12-2013, 12:25 AM
  #325
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Originally Posted by serge2k View Post
Kesler was scoring 40 goals and the Sedins won back to back art ross trophies. Gee, I wonder why the didn't go an get guys with more skill.

Can't blame Gillis for poor center depth when 2 of his guys are on IR (Kesler and Malholtra). Can definitely blame him for being dumb even to toss Hodgson away with plugging the obvious hole afterwards.
Kesler's goal scoring explosion" was unexpected and is really looking like an aberration peak year and everyone knew the Sedins were aging (declining).

Gillis hasn't done very well at the draft table or the trade front (Lou situation included).

Viggy will be the 1st to go as the coach always is in these situations.

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