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The Canucks are in a tailspin

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Old
03-12-2013, 12:27 AM
  #326
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The best centre the canucks can get atm is Kesler.

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03-12-2013, 12:31 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by BROOKLYnKNIGHTS View Post
Good post. Suprisingly subjective.
Don't let my name fool you, I'm pretty objective on most things hockey wise.

As a long suffering Canucks fan I sometimes wish that I could have the blind faith and optimism of some of the fans on here.

The Canucks really need a leader in the Linden/Smyl mold as the Sedin era is winding down really fast.

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03-12-2013, 01:03 AM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Kesler's goal scoring explosion" was unexpected and is really looking like an aberration peak year and everyone knew the Sedins were aging (declining).

Gillis hasn't done very well at the draft table or the trade front (Lou situation included).

Viggy will be the 1st to go as the coach always is in these situations.
Disagree, he's done a decent job at both, if not serviceable. Drafting Hodgson as the only relatively high pick, Jensen and Corrado are looking good, Gaunce will probably crack the 3rd line C in the next few years, Connauton will be in the NHL next season as a depth dman with potential offensive upside, etc.

For trading, he's done more good than harm.
  • Ehrhoff + Lukowich for White and Rahimi.
  • Higgins for a 3rd round pick in 2013 and Oberg.
  • Lapierre for a 3rd round draft pick in 2012 and Perrault.
  • Booth + Reinprecht for Samuelsson + Sturm.

Bad trades:
  • Ballard + Oreskovich for Grabner, 1st (Howden), Bernier.
  • Bernier for 2nd and 3rd round draft pick.


The Hodgson trade is debatable and won't be judged accurately for a few more seasons.
Even though Booth is struggling right now, I'd still do that trade today given Samuelsson's age and contract expiring as well as the uselessness that was Sturm.

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03-12-2013, 01:32 AM
  #329
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Overall I think everyone is overreacting, but considering this is hfboards thats no surprise. LA showed last year that seeding doesn't really mean much in the playoffs these days.

As a Canucks fan, I can only be hopeful that management will see the glaring weaknesses that have been apparent to many Canucks fans for years despite back-to-back presidents trophys. This team simply does not have enough top end offensive talent to win the cup. If Kesler is playing like he did in 2010/2011 then its not as big of a weakness but he isnt and hasnt been healthy enough to do so.

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03-12-2013, 01:46 AM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Love View Post
Overall I think everyone is overreacting, but considering this is hfboards thats no surprise. LA showed last year that seeding doesn't really mean much in the playoffs these days.

As a Canucks fan, I can only be hopeful that management will see the glaring weaknesses that have been apparent to many Canucks fans for years despite back-to-back presidents trophys. This team simply does not have enough top end offensive talent to win the cup. If Kesler is playing like he did in 2010/2011 then its not as big of a weakness but he isnt and hasnt been healthy enough to do so.
I'm bold jumping in here, but didn't the Red Wings win the President trophy several years and not win the cup? I might be wrong, imo the President trophy is meaningless, it's who wins the cup not the best point tally after 82 games...

The Cup starts day one of the playoffs and all teams are legit contenders.... That said, I really wanted you guys to beat Boston but it is what it is....

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03-12-2013, 01:50 AM
  #331
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I'm bold jumping in here, but didn't the Red Wings win the President trophy several years and not win the cup? I might be wrong, imo the President trophy is meaningless, it's who wins the cup not the best point tally after 82 games...

The Cup starts day one of the playoffs and all teams are legit contenders.... That said, I really wanted you guys to beat Boston but it is what is....
Well obviously what you said is true. My point was simply that despite the Canucks overall success the last couple years, there are/were some glaring weaknesses.

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03-12-2013, 02:03 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Love View Post
Well obviously what you said is true. My point was simply that despite the Canucks overall success the last couple years, there are/were some glaring weaknesses.
For clarity I was not responding to your post, I was just voicing a general consideration.... That said, all teams, even SC winning teams, have weaknesses; the teams that can hide those weaknesses and still win earn the cup...

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03-12-2013, 02:05 AM
  #333
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If the result today holds up, that's 3 wins in their last 12 games. Only 8 regulation wins all season.

This is not acceptable for a team with their talent. It's not even that different from last year's team, and that team won the President's Trophy. Fact is, this is one of the worst slumps this season from any team and I don't see them getting out of it unless serious changes are made. The core looks as lifeless as I've ever seen it.


It's not even the worse slump right now. (Tampa Bay)

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03-12-2013, 02:10 AM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Co Ho View Post
Disagree, he's done a decent job at both, if not serviceable. Drafting Hodgson as the only relatively high pick, Jensen and Corrado are looking good, Gaunce will probably crack the 3rd line C in the next few years, Connauton will be in the NHL next season as a depth dman with potential offensive upside, etc.

For trading, he's done more good than harm.
  • Ehrhoff + Lukowich for White and Rahimi.
  • Higgins for a 3rd round pick in 2013 and Oberg.
  • Lapierre for a 3rd round draft pick in 2012 and Perrault.
  • Booth + Reinprecht for Samuelsson + Sturm.

Bad trades:
  • Ballard + Oreskovich for Grabner, 1st (Howden), Bernier.
  • Bernier for 2nd and 3rd round draft pick.


The Hodgson trade is debatable and won't be judged accurately for a few more seasons.
Even though Booth is struggling right now, I'd still do that trade today given Samuelsson's age and contract expiring as well as the uselessness that was Sturm.
This.

People so quickly forget how easily we gave away 2nd rounders to guys who were absolutely brutal.

Gillis has made some moves that are such obvious wins, while his 'bad' ones are even debatable looking at the situations. I wouldn't even know what we'd do with Grabner; another mid-range ability winger. And what would we be doing without Ballard ? Change that 1st to a 3rd and I'd do that trade again.

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03-12-2013, 02:18 AM
  #335
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Originally Posted by 0bjectiveC0mput0r View Post
Bootup sequence initiated...
Vancouver Canucks bash thread recognized...
Failure by opposing fans to recognize positives of Vancouver Canucks affirmed...
Cognitive disrespect to boost self-ego of one's particular team that is associated with their place of birth... noted...

Trying to compute human disagreeables...
Vancouver Canucks still in playoffs... confirmed...
Reigning President Trophy winners... confirmed...
Possess a number of key talents other teams secretly crave... confirmed...

Readjusting computation based on facts received from statistical databases...

SYSTEM... OVERL... FAILUR>R>...

GURU MEDITATION ERROR 503 503
Brilliant. All it takes is a win tomorrow and back in third in the west.

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03-12-2013, 04:45 AM
  #336
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If we overreacted losing to the Bruins, why don't we still have Raffi Torres? We are still the same old small team, just with Kassian instead of Hodgson (who was probably our best player vs the Bruins in that regular season game).

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03-12-2013, 04:53 AM
  #337
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What's wrong with Vancouver? Same as what's wrong with Washington. They overreacted to a playoff series loss and attempted to change the team's identity when it didn't need changing.
Wrong, we needed to get rid of the Sedins (trade them for some first liners who dont go MIA in the playoffs) and that didnt happen, so our identity remains.

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Old
03-12-2013, 05:01 AM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
If we overreacted losing to the Bruins, why don't we still have Raffi Torres? We are still the same old small team, just with Kassian instead of Hodgson (who was probably our best player vs the Bruins in that regular season game).
Because he doesn't have any talent and he doesn't answer a toughness issue and he took just as many penalties and suspensions as he drew.

By the way, the Canucks are 15th in average weight. 11th in average height.

Where are you getting it's a small team ? Only three players below 6".

Lastly, who cares. We didn't lose because of toughness. It was because we couldn't put the puck in the net.

With that said, I'll take basically anyone that can get more points than Torres, over Torres.

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03-12-2013, 05:05 AM
  #339
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Originally Posted by TheGoldenJet View Post
Wrong, we needed to get rid of the Sedins (trade them for some first liners who dont go MIA in the playoffs) and that didnt happen, so our identity remains.
Sedins are ppg players in the playoffs. Just because they stay the same in the regular season as they are in the playoffs, you're perceiving them as disappearing. Well done on clicking three clicks on the Canucks website.

Secondary scoring disappeared more than the Sedins. It's been the larger problem, being so dependent on the Sedins.

I really think AV needs to go. I think the Sedins need to be put with stiffer competition and allow the lesser players to have o-zone faceoffs for one.

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03-12-2013, 05:10 AM
  #340
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The Canucks are still a good team on paper, not really sure what the problem is. I do believe Gillis is a stubborn man though. He's overplayed his hand on Luongo big time. The asking price, supposedly, was crazy. Luongo could be used to bring in some good talent and really help this team. Still makes no sense to hold onto him IMO. His value cannot go up from here.

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03-12-2013, 05:25 AM
  #341
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Originally Posted by LetsBeReality View Post
Because he doesn't have any talent and he doesn't answer a toughness issue and he took just as many penalties and suspensions as he drew.

By the way, the Canucks are 15th in average weight. 11th in average height.

Where are you getting it's a small team ? Only three players below 6".

Lastly, who cares. We didn't lose because of toughness. It was because we couldn't put the puck in the net.

With that said, I'll take basically anyone that can get more points than Torres, over Torres.
Torres threw his body around. We may not be a small team, but we sure play like it.

And then you completely deviated from my point completely and seem to have snuck unknowingly into an area of agreement with many of my views.

That said Torres brought an important facet to the team and solidified an excellent checking line with Hansen and Lapierre that was our best line in the Boston series. I wouldn't take him over Higgins, but I'll take him over what we've gotten out of Ballard ever since (not that it is his fault).

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03-12-2013, 05:27 AM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
The Canucks are still a good team on paper, not really sure what the problem is. I do believe Gillis is a stubborn man though. He's overplayed his hand on Luongo big time. The asking price, supposedly, was crazy. Luongo could be used to bring in some good talent and really help this team. Still makes no sense to hold onto him IMO. His value cannot go up from here.
The main problem right now is we are using 3 centres and only 1 of them is good enough to be getting the minutes they've been getting.

Or it could be that we have 1 healthy right-side defenseman. He's not bad but before this year had only played 54 NHL games.

Basically there is a huge imbalance of pieces in our current line-up. Skill is there, but some of our plumbers have been asked to put a man on the moon.

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03-12-2013, 06:05 AM
  #343
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Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
The main problem right now is we are using 3 centres and only 1 of them is good enough to be getting the minutes they've been getting.

Or it could be that we have 1 healthy right-side defenseman. He's not bad but before this year had only played 54 NHL games.

Basically there is a huge imbalance of pieces in our current line-up. Skill is there, but some of our plumbers have been asked to put a man on the moon.
Lack of center depth destroys any team. Still though, injuries happen to every team and the good teams keep winning. Again, dealing Luongo could significantly improve this club and give it quality depth.

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03-12-2013, 06:16 AM
  #344
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Originally Posted by Man Bear Pig View Post
Lack of center depth destroys any team. Still though, injuries happen to every team and the good teams keep winning. Again, dealing Luongo could significantly improve this club and give it quality depth.
Yes. While things were nice and rose-coloured we could afford not trading either guy, but now it's time. It's dragged on too long I think at this point.

And absolutely nothing is more important than depth at the centre position when it comes to success in this league. Look at the past 8 Stanley Cup winners.

I don't think it's we are being overcome by injuries, it's that we have zero depth and are being exposed by it with playing a winger with zero centre experience in that position, a 4th line player being given 2nd line minutes for god knows why and 2 left-side defenseman on the right side.

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03-12-2013, 09:42 AM
  #345
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Originally Posted by Co Ho View Post
Disagree, he's done a decent job at both, if not serviceable. Drafting Hodgson as the only relatively high pick, Jensen and Corrado are looking good, Gaunce will probably crack the 3rd line C in the next few years, Connauton will be in the NHL next season as a depth dman with potential offensive upside, etc.

For trading, he's done more good than harm.
  • Ehrhoff + Lukowich for White and Rahimi.
  • Higgins for a 3rd round pick in 2013 and Oberg.
  • Lapierre for a 3rd round draft pick in 2012 and Perrault.
  • Booth + Reinprecht for Samuelsson + Sturm.

Bad trades:
  • Ballard + Oreskovich for Grabner, 1st (Howden), Bernier.
  • Bernier for 2nd and 3rd round draft pick.


The Hodgson trade is debatable and won't be judged accurately for a few more seasons.
Even though Booth is struggling right now, I'd still do that trade today given Samuelsson's age and contract expiring as well as the uselessness that was Sturm.
Ehrhoff basically dropped in his lap, wait until you see what those two 3rd rounders turn into before you trumpet those as good deals, and the Booth trade was bad.

Booth takes up over $4 million in cap space and is un-tradeable now. Sturm was a stupid, stupid signing Gillis needed to rid himself off even if simply for optics if anything else and Samuelsson was up at the end of the year, opening cap space, but was still good in the room and a better fit for the team when healthy. Horrible trade.

Mike Gillis has done nearly nothing but milk the very same core he inherited yet slammed at his opening presser (Sedin comments and statement about being nowhere close to a Cup team) and is clearly the most overrated GM in the league. I'm sure people will cite some of the hometown discounts taken by some but all he did was take advantage of players wanting to play in Vancouver. not for Gillis the GM or especially AV as coach, but in Vancouver.

They'll likely rebound and win the division but it's a fading team that will be first round fodder come April.

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Old
03-12-2013, 10:29 AM
  #346
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The fact we still have AV as our coach, along with Bowness and Brown as assistant coaches means we don't want to win the Cup anytime soon. Wasting a very good roster with bad coaches that have lost this team and the direction they want to go in.

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03-12-2013, 10:46 AM
  #347
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Every team losses players from year to year with injuries
Bingo

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03-12-2013, 11:43 AM
  #348
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That would only serve to worsen our already woefully inept scoring. The Sedins have difficulty developing chemistry with other players, in particular due to their cycle game. Henrik is so accustom to blind and quick passes, the majority of new linemates simply cannot read what he'll do. This is often why Burrows is a stable on their line. He knows how to read what the Sedins and their unique cycle game. Kassian displayed traits reminiscent of Burrows or Kesler with the Sedins but after a temporary skid, AV has seen fit to split them up and that line has never since the light of day since.

Your observation is not off though. AV coaches players to play his system instead of adapting his system to their strength. Guys like Higgins, Raymond and Booth are forced into a variant "Sedin-lite" cycle game they cannot hope to succeed, hence why our it appears we do not emphasis skill. Garrison is arguably our best example of a underutilized asset. Henrik is a phenomenal passer and use to setup Salo for rockets. You would think the adjust would be simple, non? Nope. We have never once attempted to tee up Garrison's slapper. You know, even better is Lapierre or Ebbett on the second line. Imagine one of them centering Kane, Hossa or Sharp. Odds are they will all suck for it (Okay, Hossa may just will the line to success but Hossa's not human)

Our problem derives from precisely what your last paragraph said. We were an absolute dominate team, thus becoming watched by everyone else in the league. And from our template their system were adapted to break down ours. There was actually a graph demonstrating how unique the Canucks style was upon its inception. Unfortunately, the coaching staff is obstinate to a damn fault and refuses to adapt themselves. We may be the only team who plays almost identical to our champion season despite a good amount of those tactics having become easily predictable; look no further then during Detroit's annihilation. They had us so down to a science, we were calling plays before they even happened because half our board knew exactly what we would do. Chicago has done similar, which is why Hossa practically one manned our whole line.

Teams know we will always attempt the now useless long pass and leave our defensemen on an island. They know we will dump the puck and attempt to cycle down low, especially if the Sedins are out - it's all the ever do now. They know whenever our depth lines are out, we typically do not use them for offensive orientated roles. And finally, they know on the powerplay, we will perpetually puck cycle, hesitant before any slapshot and probably miss.

We are so predictable it borders on fascinating because AV may be the only one who cannot see it.
Man that was well said. Exactly how i feel. The book is out on our unique system and instead of adapting it to keep other teams guessing we just beat the dead horse because "if it worked in the past it must work again".

Another key key point is that we force players to fit the system rather than fitting the system to our players strength. Gillis went out and created the perfect team for our perfect system and we had a near perfect season.

Then as someone stated before we overreacted to getting beat up and tried to change the identity. We lost because of key injuries, and lack of scoring. But you know what we really dug our own graves; instead of sticking to our game we let our arrogant, cocky attitudes get the better of us and begged a bigger, stronger team to come at us...well they did and the refs weren't there to babysit us, and i don't blame them one bit. Yes there were some ridiculous non-calls but we were the ones that provoked it all.

Not to mention we lost key players. Malhotra was such a key to the system and erhoff was very important too; Salo too. These are replaceable players, however, they clearly have not been adequately replaced nor has the system been tweaked to accustom the lack of these players.

Finally, i can't stand watching our 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th line try to play the sedin-style cycle game. It is not fit for them and very rarely ends up in any kind of scoring chance. We need a two-pronged attack; let the sedins cycle, the 2nd line overload and the 3rd/4th just crash and bang. I mean really do booth, raymond and hansen seem like cycle-style players to you? Their game is based off speed and transitioning off turnovers not dumping, chasing, cycling.


Last edited by CanuckCity: 03-12-2013 at 11:59 AM.
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03-12-2013, 04:49 PM
  #349
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Ehrhoff basically dropped in his lap, wait until you see what those two 3rd rounders turn into before you trumpet those as good deals, and the Booth trade was bad.
How was Ehrhoff "basically dropped into his lap"? If it was such an easy trade, why didn't other GMs recognize this?
Ehrhoff was included in the original offer for Heatley, Ottawa wasn't interested though. Sure, the circumstances were good for whoever wanted Ehrhoff, but Gillis was still the first to acknowledge the asset available and acquire him by trading 2 useless prospects that busted a long time ago.

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Booth takes up over $4 million in cap space and is un-tradeable now. Sturm was a stupid, stupid signing Gillis needed to rid himself off even if simply for optics if anything else and Samuelsson was up at the end of the year, opening cap space, but was still good in the room and a better fit for the team when healthy. Horrible trade.
It's not looking great right now, obviously with Booth's current lack of production, but I'd still do that trade. Getting rid of Sturm was worth it (regardless of if he was a stupid signing by Gillis, we're not talking about signings right now anyways - and if we were, that would be Gillis' greatest ability as a GM), and Samuelsson was injured (and is now injury prone), on his expiring contract. We basically traded a useless asset (2 mill cap space + roster spot), an asset that was quickly declining in value, for a player capable of playing in our top 6, putting up 20-25 goals, that plays with a physical edge. The trade was decent; not one of Gillis' best trades, but still better than sticking with the status quo.

And please, tell me how Samuelsson was still good in the room and a better fit for the team when he barely would be even playing and might not have even re-signed at the end of the season?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim McCracken View Post
Mike Gillis has done nearly nothing but milk the very same core he inherited yet slammed at his opening presser (Sedin comments and statement about being nowhere close to a Cup team) and is clearly the most overrated GM in the league. I'm sure people will cite some of the hometown discounts taken by some but all he did was take advantage of players wanting to play in Vancouver. not for Gillis the GM or especially AV as coach, but in Vancouver.

They'll likely rebound and win the division but it's a fading team that will be first round fodder come April.

Here's a heads up: every GM that gets recently hired inherits their team and core.
I can just see it now: if Gillis gets fired in the next few seasons, and a new GM is hired; this new GM is incredibly overrated because he inherited roster players like Jensen, Gaunce, Corrado, Lack, Schroeder, etc. and inherited the bargain contracts of Edler, Kesler, etc.
This is the same logic that you just applied to Gillis.


I'll agree with you on some of the home team discounts, such as Hamhuis and Garrison, because I do agree that he had them in the bag regardless of what he did. But contracts like Burrows 4 years @ 2 million, or Edler's recent contract, were definitely negotiated a lot and Gillis got great deals on them.

People also neglect all the extra stuff that Gillis has done over the years.
His patience with dealing players (Luongo, Hodgson); he doesn't make knee jerk reaction moves, and he tries to wait and address team needs.

His culture change for the team. The Canucks were a MUCH more hated team before Gillis arrived, and Kesler/Burrows used to chirp players almost every night, but Gillis has cracked down on these shenanigans and has improved our image a bit. (I know, here come the diving/biting posts).

Honouring old players with the Ring of Honour. I know this one sounds cheezy, but it's still a nice gesture to honour vets that have played on our team.

Sticking up for his team mates and treating them with respect. He doesn't believe in burying players in the minors, but rather would trade them and give them a chance to keep their jobs in the NHL (see O'Brien and Hordichuk). Also, when the officiating turned into a total joke during the Chicago 2011 series (see Youtube video if you need clarification, this ain't not conspiracy theory), Gillis stood up for his team and questioned the integrity of officiating and received a fine, which was worth it IMO.

Calling Gillis the most overrated GM in the league is laughable. He's been the best GM of our franchise's history IMO, which might not be saying that much, but he's still better than anything we've ever had. He's definitely underrated on our team's board, people want him fired over the stupidest things.

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03-12-2013, 05:18 PM
  #350
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Originally Posted by Co Ho View Post
Disagree, he's done a decent job at both, if not serviceable. Drafting Hodgson as the only relatively high pick, Jensen and Corrado are looking good, Gaunce will probably crack the 3rd line C in the next few years, Connauton will be in the NHL next season as a depth dman with potential offensive upside, etc.

For trading, he's done more good than harm.
  • Ehrhoff + Lukowich for White and Rahimi.
  • Higgins for a 3rd round pick in 2013 and Oberg.
  • Lapierre for a 3rd round draft pick in 2012 and Perrault.
  • Booth + Reinprecht for Samuelsson + Sturm.

Bad trades:
  • Ballard + Oreskovich for Grabner, 1st (Howden), Bernier.
  • Bernier for 2nd and 3rd round draft pick.


The Hodgson trade is debatable and won't be judged accurately for a few more seasons.
Even though Booth is struggling right now, I'd still do that trade today given Samuelsson's age and contract expiring as well as the uselessness that was Sturm.
The Booth trade is a negative. You might have to buy him out this off season or give up more assets to get rid of him.

The Hodgson trade is not debatable at this point. Buffalo is the clear winner. Hodgson sites 17th for centres for points and tied for 13th for goals. Kassian has 1 point in his last 10 games.

The Erhoff deal was a steal. Then he was allowed to walk. Ballard and now Garrison have been brought in instead and are taking up more cap space.

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