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Putting It All Together-What does Jarmo do now?

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Old
03-24-2013, 11:10 PM
  #226
Matthew
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You buyout crappy mistakes like Mike Commodore. You don't buyout players like Wisniewski. At least not yet.

You hope Wiz's foot and ankle stops being puck magnets because he's played up to his contract and expectations since he's been wearing the Union blue.

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03-25-2013, 09:14 AM
  #227
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Oh boy. This zombie idea keeps popping up that we can compare the two sides of a 3 for 1 deal by adding up points. Even if points were the sole criterion by which to measure a player, this would be false because of the substitution effects. 3 roster players moving off the Rangers and one going the other way opens up two spaces for the Rangers for more production, and closes off two for the Jackets. If you wanted to do a points only comparison you would have to see how the players in question compare using value over replacement player or VORP. I don't do advanced stats but they're already on top of this concept.


Did the jackets get better, Looking at intangibles, I'd say yes. Did the Rangers get better? Looking at intangibles, maybe not (with the pieces they lost in addition to what was sent here)

I'm not basing it purely on points, but that tends to be the first thing that was brought up around here when Nash asked for the trade, "Who was going to score the points?" It was a shallow question then, and it remains a shallow point now, thats why I qualified the post with the part you didn't qoute.

How anybody wants to spin this trade and what they want to use to spin it is subjective.

I'll dance with what brought me here: More flexibilty with Salary structure, shift in lockerroom leadership politics, a more clearer goal beyond "build around a 28 year old winger".

In that, this trade is a win for the CBJ, not just for now, but in the future.

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03-25-2013, 12:26 PM
  #228
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We actually have someone even looking into a Wiz buyout? Don't bother, that isn't happening.

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03-25-2013, 12:36 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
You buyout crappy mistakes like Mike Commodore. You don't buyout players like Wisniewski. At least not yet.

You hope Wiz's foot and ankle stops being puck magnets because he's played up to his contract and expectations since he's been wearing the Union blue.
Agreed. Wiz has been affected by a stupid suspension handed out by Shanahan last season as well as routinely taking pucks to the foot/ankle. When he isn't the victim of freak injuries, he has been playing well.

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Originally Posted by KeithBWhittington View Post
Did the jackets get better, Looking at intangibles, I'd say yes. Did the Rangers get better? Looking at intangibles, maybe not (with the pieces they lost in addition to what was sent here)

I'm not basing it purely on points, but that tends to be the first thing that was brought up around here when Nash asked for the trade, "Who was going to score the points?" It was a shallow question then, and it remains a shallow point now, thats why I qualified the post with the part you didn't qoute.

How anybody wants to spin this trade and what they want to use to spin it is subjective.

I'll dance with what brought me here: More flexibilty with Salary structure, shift in lockerroom leadership politics, a more clearer goal beyond "build around a 28 year old winger".

In that, this trade is a win for the CBJ, not just for now, but in the future.
A GM has to not only be concerned about how the player he acquires performs but also how the rest of the team performs in response to a trade. For instance, Nash may be playing great but the rest of the team is sucking. While not directly a result of losing Anisimov and Dubinsky, you have to begin to wonder if Nash's very presence doesn't have a negative effect on a team. He may be playing great but this is a team sport. If the team plays worse than they did when you acquired Nash, that is not a good thing.

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03-25-2013, 03:42 PM
  #230
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We actually have someone even looking into a Wiz buyout? Don't bother, that isn't happening.
IMO, for what he gives the team, Wiz has a bad contract, so it wouldn't surprise me if something changes with Wiz in the near future. That's all I am really saying though, is "Don't be surprised. . . "

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I get the feeling that JD and JK are more "unattached" to the players than the previous two GM's and definitely more so than the fans. I trust they'll look into EVERY option to make this team better . . .

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03-25-2013, 04:05 PM
  #231
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IMO, for what he gives the team, Wiz has a bad contract, so it wouldn't surprise me if something changes with Wiz in the near future. That's all I am really saying though, is "Don't be surprised. . . "

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I get the feeling that JD and JK are more "unattached" to the players than the previous two GM's and definitely more so than the fans. I trust they'll look into EVERY option to make this team better . . .
Except moving Wisniewski would make the team worse. Our PP is much better when he's in and he's a very good presence at even strength.

His games missed isn't due to something that can be predicted or controlled. They are due to freak injuries that leave him sidelined. That's not something you get rid of a player for usually.

Wisniewski is great. If he can stop being a puck magnet you'll see why talking about trading or buying him out is silly. Last season he was on pace for a pro-rated 49 points. That's more than worth his salary.

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03-25-2013, 04:38 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by General Jacket70 View Post
IMO, for what he gives the team, Wiz has a bad contract, so it wouldn't surprise me if something changes with Wiz in the near future. That's all I am really saying though, is "Don't be surprised. . . "

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I get the feeling that JD and JK are more "unattached" to the players than the previous two GM's and definitely more so than the fans. I trust they'll look into EVERY option to make this team better . . .
I'm not a big fan of the Wiz contract either. Not saying Wiz will be moved, but I'm guessing there will be a surprise move or two at the deadline.

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03-25-2013, 04:53 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
Except moving Wisniewski would make the team worse. Our PP is much better when he's in and he's a very good presence at even strength.

His games missed isn't due to something that can be predicted or controlled. They are due to freak injuries that leave him sidelined. That's not something you get rid of a player for usually.

Wisniewski is great. If he can stop being a puck magnet you'll see why talking about trading or buying him out is silly. Last season he was on pace for a pro-rated 49 points. That's more than worth his salary.
Another case of projection. "Here's something I would do if I were in charge, so I'm sure our new braintrust is looking into exactly the same thing."

The notion that JD/Jarmo might not view every player the way we do is pretty obvious. The chances that something happens, either at the deadline or, IMO, more likely the offseason, that goes against collective fans' (mine included) conventional wisdom, also seems pretty likely. Thus I have no expectations.

Much like the coaching thing. I could make a case for keeping or cannin the coaching staff. I have no idea what approach the FO is taking, so figure I'll let it play out.

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03-25-2013, 05:02 PM
  #234
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Apologies for my ignorance of the cap situation.

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03-25-2013, 05:10 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
Except moving Wisniewski would make the team worse. Our PP is much better when he's in and he's a very good presence at even strength.

His games missed isn't due to something that can be predicted or controlled. They are due to freak injuries that leave him sidelined. That's not something you get rid of a player for usually.

Wisniewski is great. If he can stop being a puck magnet you'll see why talking about trading or buying him out is silly. Last season he was on pace for a pro-rated 49 points. That's more than worth his salary.
I've always liked the guy and I see why he's an asset. I think it will surprise a lot of fans if something happens with him. And again, that's my point: it shouldn't surprise anyone. It also wouldn't surprise me if he's with the team for a few more years, if he stays healthy and produces. . .


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03-25-2013, 05:19 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Double-Shift Lassť View Post
Another case of projection. "Here's something I would do if I were in charge, so I'm sure our new braintrust is looking into exactly the same thing."

The notion that JD/Jarmo might not view every player the way we do is pretty obvious. The chances that something happens, either at the deadline or, IMO, more likely the offseason, that goes against collective fans' (mine included) conventional wisdom, also seems pretty likely. Thus I have no expectations.

Much like the coaching thing. I could make a case for keeping or cannin the coaching staff. I have no idea what approach the FO is taking, so figure I'll let it play out.
Glad to hear someone won't be surprised by any moves :-).

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03-25-2013, 05:27 PM
  #237
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Glad to hear someone won't be surprised by any moves :-).
Only players I'd really be like "wtf....." about would be if Johansen, Murray, Johnson or Bobrovsky. And if it was on draft day depending on who/what we got in return I wouldn't be to shocked.

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03-25-2013, 05:58 PM
  #238
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Glad to hear someone won't be surprised by any moves :-).
Also won't be surprised if there aren't any. I might have an opinion about certain things that happen (or don't) but since we have little-to-no idea what JD/Jarmo's assessment of any of these players are, I don't know how we can have any expectations.

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03-26-2013, 09:59 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post

A GM has to not only be concerned about how the player he acquires performs but also how the rest of the team performs in response to a trade. For instance, Nash may be playing great but the rest of the team is sucking. While not directly a result of losing Anisimov and Dubinsky, you have to begin to wonder if Nash's very presence doesn't have a negative effect on a team. He may be playing great but this is a team sport. If the team plays worse than they did when you acquired Nash, that is not a good thing.
Well said. The Rangers aren't bad BECAUSE they traded for Nash, but coupled with what they let leave the building (Prust, Mitchell, etc) and what they sent in the Nash deal, they lost too much of the "team effort" for Rick Nash's elevated offensive play to balance it out, they didn't get to the Eastern Finals last year with offensive flair.

On the other hand, a player that asks out has to create some instability in the lockerroom, whether thats their intention (Jeff Carter) or not (Rick Nash).

With a new leadership structure taking place, this team is healthier, emotionally, then they were at the end of last season.

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03-26-2013, 10:01 AM
  #240
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Also won't be surprised if there aren't any. I might have an opinion about certain things that happen (or don't) but since we have little-to-no idea what JD/Jarmo's assessment of any of these players are, I don't know how we can have any expectations.
The only thing I could reasonably argue for expectations comes from the statements they've made regarding the future.

I don't now how they feel about Tyutin, or Johnson or even a preceived young building block like RyJo, specifically, but I do know what they've conveyed to the fanbase, and I'm interpreting what I've heard as a "rebuild"

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03-26-2013, 11:27 AM
  #241
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The only thing I could reasonably argue for expectations comes from the statements they've made regarding the future.

I don't now how they feel about Tyutin, or Johnson or even a preceived young building block like RyJo, specifically, but I do know what they've conveyed to the fanbase, and I'm interpreting what I've heard as a "rebuild"
"Brick by brick," sure. What we don't know is how many bricks they think they already have - even if they're in the wrong place for the design.

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03-26-2013, 11:36 AM
  #242
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Also won't be surprised if there aren't any. I might have an opinion about certain things that happen (or don't) but since we have little-to-no idea what JD/Jarmo's assessment of any of these players are, I don't know how we can have any expectations.
Well, that's a fan message board buzz-kill :-) Non-representative opinions and expectations are the very life-blood of this kind of topic.

I would be surprised if there aren't any. You don't normally change GM's without making some (sometimes not-so-popular) changes. It will be interesting to see which way JD and JK are taking the team after this summer.

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03-26-2013, 11:44 AM
  #243
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Well, that's a fan message board buzz-kill :-) Non-representative opinions and expectations are the very life-blood of this kind of topic.

I would be surprised if there aren't any. You don't normally change GM's without making some (sometimes not-so-popular) changes. It will be interesting to see which way JD and JK are taking the team after this summer.
You may have missed where I said I have opinions about what should and shouldn't be done. I'm just not projecting them onto the new FO. I believe there is a lot of that going around. As long as people suggest that their opinions are just that, what they think the new FO SHOULD do, and not what they think they're GOING TO do, I'm good with it.

And maybe someone has evidence to support a contention about what they think the FO will do (like, "Oh, they'll trade Nikitin because they did once before" or something). And I will then reserve the right to comment on wether or not I believed said evidence is applicable.

Call that a buzzkill if you like.

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03-26-2013, 11:54 AM
  #244
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"Brick by brick," sure. What we don't know is how many bricks they think they already have - even if they're in the wrong place for the design.
Fair enough. Outside of the now famous phrases, the meaning or depth is up for interpretation.

I think we are a few seasons away from having a organization that can challenge annually for, and win in, the playoffs.

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03-26-2013, 12:05 PM
  #245
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"Brick by brick," sure. What we don't know is how many bricks they think they already have - even if they're in the wrong place for the design.
...or if they has settled on a design. I think the no short term changes comment reflects an analyze, wait and see attitude. Is this team playing in a manner that we want to continue so we will draft/trade to add supplements or is there some fundamental flaw that needs to be addressed first.

Fundamental flaws from the past:
Lack of emotional maturity & composure - No longer an issue so far this year but I wouldn't bank on it until we get to the end of the season.
Lack of work ethic and accountability - Same answer as above.
Lack of reliable goalie/defense - Can Bobrovsky keep it up on the road? What about a back up goalie?
Lack of reliable offense/scoring - Still present, needs work

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03-26-2013, 12:31 PM
  #246
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"Brick by brick," sure. What we don't know is how many bricks they think they already have - even if they're in the wrong place for the design.
My guess is that they aren't sure themselves. I think we'll see a cautious approach to the roster this year and this offseason, minor moves. Any real noise will come with the handling of the draft picks.

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03-26-2013, 01:08 PM
  #247
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Canes put J Jokinen on waivers today. Signed thru next season with a 3 mil cap hit. Would we have any interest?

He's a Fin which just so happens to be where Jarmo is from.

Jussi potted 30 goals a few seasons back. He's struggled this year, but anybody that has high goal potential I think is someone we need to take a close look at.

Thoughts?


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03-26-2013, 01:10 PM
  #248
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Canes put J Jokinen on waivers today. Signed thru next season with a 3 mil cap hit. Would we have any interest?

He's a Fin which just so happens to be where Jarmo is from.

Jussi potted 30 goals a few seasons back. He's struggles this year, but anybody that has high goal potential I think is someone we need to take a close look at.

Thoughts?
In my opinion, we have too many quality people down the middle as is with Jenner up-and-coming. So I don't think we need him. . .

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03-26-2013, 01:14 PM
  #249
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You may have missed where I said I have opinions about what should and shouldn't be done. I'm just not projecting them onto the new FO. I believe there is a lot of that going around. As long as people suggest that their opinions are just that, what they think the new FO SHOULD do, and not what they think they're GOING TO do, I'm good with it.

And maybe someone has evidence to support a contention about what they think the FO will do (like, "Oh, they'll trade Nikitin because they did once before" or something). And I will then reserve the right to comment on wether or not I believed said evidence is applicable.

Call that a buzzkill if you like.
Doesn't the title of this thread "What does Jarmo do now?" sort of invite "I think they're going to" type of projections you're taking about? I don't see where the harm in that is?

You're still buzzkillin' me with the obvious. I don't believe that anyone here KNOWS what the FO is GOING to do, (unless your handle is "JD" or "JK", or "the dude in charge" or "Finn-it to Win-it" or "Nostradamus", then I might think twice about what you write ;-). I certainly don't. . .but I've got opinions that I'd like to express about what I THINK they are going to do, given what I know.


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03-26-2013, 01:17 PM
  #250
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In my opinion, we have too many quality people down the middle as is with Jenner up-and-coming. So I don't think we need him. . .
Jokinen can play wing. I think he's actually played wing the most. That and his contract expires at the end of next season, likely before Jenner pushes onto the team.

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