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Interview Dave Feschuk talks about his last article in the Star. Burke wants credit

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04-21-2013, 11:07 AM
  #301
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Obviously, it is part of the job.

If some are saying Burke has no responsibility whatsoever they're just being obtuse.

If some are trying to say Burke did a wonderful job, I'd just point out that 15 other teams will be in the playoffs.
The standard for praise may be a mediocre product, but when you pay for the best you should expect the best in return.
With the same talent level acauired? Having surfaced from the kind of talent absent environment that he was handed?

Can't agree here, ULF.

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04-21-2013, 11:08 AM
  #302
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Kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul, Kadri, JVR, Franson, McClement?

Seriously guy:

2 dmen tied for 5th in the league in scoring

3 forwards 25 and under (only team in the league that can say this) in the top 47 scoring forwards with two challenging for top 10.

Another forward challenging for 1st overall in PPG (unfortunately missed a fair bit of time).

Another forward has his PK moved from near last to 3rd overall.

Yeah.....a lot of Burke's big moves are gone or wasting away in the minors.....

and the coach he supported for years wanted some of those guys in the press box and burke was cool with that. awesome gm

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04-21-2013, 11:10 AM
  #303
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And his coach, Asst GM, front office, minor league coach...And let's point out that the man had the integrity to own up to his faults and correct them.

There's no playoffs without Burke's moves...which are beginning to look downright genius at this point.
If it was another GM would the results have been any different after a decade of being out of the playoffs.

What Burke accomplished was not unique.

Not every child is special, mostly they are normal, regular, average kids. To their parents they are special, but in the overall scheme of things average is average.

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04-21-2013, 11:21 AM
  #304
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With the same talent level acauired? Having surfaced from the kind of talent absent environment that he was handed?

Can't agree here, ULF.
http://www.torontosun.com/2013/04/17...ad-to-be-fired

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If there has been a Leafs MVP for the entire 48-game season, it might be James Reimer, the accidental goaltender who was drafted by John Ferguson. The other Ferguson draftees playing for the Leafs: Nik Kulemin, Carl Gunnarsson, Leo Komarov and Matt Frattin. That’s five players from Ferguson. One, Mikhail Grabovski, from Cliff Fletcher. And the two Nonis picked up in smaller moves. That means eight of the 20 Leafs who play every night were not Burke acquisitions — which means 40% of the roster doesn’t relate back to him.
I don't think the talent was as low as some are trying to make it out to.

It appears some people don't believe any other GM would have done anything over the years to improve the team.

The Leafs could not have signed a GM that didn't receive 28 draft picks over the 4 years Burke was in charge.

There are still key players on the team that Burke inherited while he traded away other assets for current assets.

Maybe if I read the Columbus Dispatch I'd be seeing Howson wants his credit ...

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04-21-2013, 11:23 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
If it was another GM would the results have been any different after a decade of being out of the playoffs.

What Burke accomplished was not unique..
As I mentioned earlier in the thread 6 of the 7 bottom finishing teams from last year (Montreal, Toronto, NYI, Minny, Anaheim & Columbus) are all currently in a playoff position.

6 of 7 is 85.7%, which is certainly not unique of turnaround and improvement. Leafs among that success.

Edmonton the only team of the 7 on the outside, now that is unique to the playoff verses non playoff scenario. Perhaps had they fired their GM early like Toronto, Montreal, or Columbus have they too would have experienced more success sooner. But I'm sure fired GM Tambellini will get the credit once the Oilers make the playoffs again, if this thread is any indication of how these things work.

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04-21-2013, 11:30 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
http://www.torontosun.com/2013/04/17...ad-to-be-fired


I don't think the talent was a low as some are trying to make it out to.

It appears some people don't believe any other GM would have done anything over the years to improve the team.

The Leafs could not have signed a GM that didn't receive 28 draft picks over the 4 years Burke was in charge.

There are still key players on the team that Burke inherited while he traded away other assets for current assets.

Maybe if I read the Columbus Dispatch I'd be seeing Howson wants his credit ...
Well, out of context with my consistent opinion as to where credit is due (JFJ, Burke) your characterization would make sense, however...

To say that Burke did an exemplary job, by definition, entails that few could have done what he did. And few have, or have had to during the same time. But more's the point, if your counter is only Howson, then I'm not really getting the gist of your counter.

And I don't think you're going to suggest that the Blue Jackets (Full credit to the club) present the same kind of elite promise drudged up from such modest assests as Burke inherited are you?

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04-21-2013, 11:33 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
As I mentioned earlier in the thread 6 of the 7 bottom finishing teams from last year (Montreal, Toronto, NYI, Minny, Anaheim & Columbus) are all currently in a playoff position.

6 of 7 is 85.7%, which is certainly not unique of turnaround and improvement. Leafs among that success.

Edmonton the only team of the 7 on the outside, now that is unique to the playoff verses non playoff scenario. Perhaps had they fired their GM early like Toronto, Montreal, or Columbus have they too would have experienced more success sooner. But I'm sure fired GM Tambellini will get the credit once the Oilers make the playoffs again, if this thread is any indication of how these things work.
And of the seven cited, were any of those clubs GMs presented with the same scope of address required? Factoring in pre-existing cores, sequence of top 5 picks, etc..

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04-21-2013, 11:34 AM
  #308
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Well, out of context with my consistent opinion as to where credit is due (JFJ, Burke) your characterization would make sense, however...

To say that Burke did an exemplary job, by definition, entails that few could have done what he did. And few have, or have had to during the same time. But more's the point, if your counter is only Howson, then I'm not really getting the gist of your counter.

And I don't think you're going to suggest that the Blue Jackets (Full credit to the club) present the same kind of elite promise drudged up from such modest assests as Burke inherited are you?
I think there are many GM's who could have done what Burke accomplished.

Getting into the playoffs isn't a big deal.

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04-21-2013, 11:36 AM
  #309
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I think there are many GM's who could have done what Burke accomplished.

Getting into the playoffs isn't a big deal.
To the whole, I'd agree...The sum of the parts however, indicate we might have a team that's designed for more than simply getting into the playoffs, which is if I recall, the point Burke repeated ad nauseum as his comprehensive goal.

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04-21-2013, 11:50 AM
  #310
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grabo is a 4th line centre right now making 5 mil. TC and Komi are a ten million dollar black hole in the minors.

those are handcuffs.
Amnesty buyouts? We will buyout Komi this summer and if we can't trade Grabo. W'll see one more year of Grabovski and Nonis will decide if his a keeper, traded or bought out. Problem somewhere? Burkes cap manament was way better than average in this league. One bad RFA contract that is Grabovski. Back in the day we needed another centerman and Connolly was best stop gap in that UFA period. Few months and his gone, Richards would have been better acquisition?

With Grabovski we have to consider if his play in KHL during lockout is part of the problem. In one fantasy league I took lot of players that played in europe and some of them had big problems adjusting back to NA game. I think Malkin suffered too a bit. It's different game in KHL. Then Kadri took Grabos place and things got complicated. Mikhail is still a warrior and I we might be able to trade him. There isn't that many Cs available in free agency

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04-21-2013, 11:59 AM
  #311
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To the whole, I'd agree...The sum of the parts however, indicate we might have a team that's designed for more than simply getting into the playoffs, which is if I recall, the point Burke repeated ad nauseum as his comprehensive goal.
That's why they play the games.

16 out of 46 Conn Smythe winners have been goaltenders.

Usually, a center or a goaltender.

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04-21-2013, 12:24 PM
  #312
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Burke can take solace in recognizing the team is playing its best hockey now, when he is no longer around making any of the decisions..

Living vicariously through the success of others that he was unable to obtain, while left soul searching among his numerous failures for reasons that led to his dismissal.

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04-21-2013, 12:36 PM
  #313
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Burke can take solace in recognizing the team is playing its best hockey now, when he is no longer around making any of the decisions..

Living vicariously through the success of others that he was unable to obtain, while left soul searching among his numerous failures for reasons that led to his dismissal.
I don't think Burke is going to be taking solace in any such scenario. He's been (rightly) proud of those but for Burke moves that have defined the club's success. Carlyle and Nonis included.

Personality conflict seems to be the best guess as to why Burke was dismissed. And I should think that everyone who was brought in by Burke, knows full well, that he should be proud of those parts he assembled.

If you can point out a verifiable reason he was dismissed in the context of numerous failures and like rationale as to how those he brought in live under the delusion that he isn't primarily instrumental for this club's success, I'd be very, very interested.

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04-21-2013, 12:44 PM
  #314
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I contend that it doesn't matter if he was instrumental towards this season's success. That doesn't matter. He had to go.

Why are the Leafs spending more than $12 million on non-roster assets? Lombardi, Connolly, Armstrong, and Komisarek have all been either bought out, traded away with salary retained, or buried in the AHL. These are all Burke acquisitions. If you want to give him credit for his successes, you also have to give him credit for his spectacular failures as well.

Why did Burke send Orr to the minors and lament the death of the enforcer and the rising prominence of the rat? He conducted a press conference specifically to make that announcement. But today, three Leafs enforcers are playing a vital role in ensuring our team is tough and that no one messes with our youngsters and skilled players: McLaren, Orr, and Fraser.

Burke's fatal move was sticking with Wilson for far too long. The enforcer was never dead. Wilson just didn't want to play him. In comes Carlyle, and all of a sudden enforcers are playing a crucial role on a Toronto hockey team. If there was ever a single reason for Burke's legitimate dismissal, it was his insistence to cling to his old buddy Ron Wilson. Wilson routinely iced a soft-as-butter, defensively weak, lackadaisical, run-and-gun, and PK-poor team. On one hand Burke preaches truculence, and on the other he secures a contract extension for a buddy of his that completely disagrees with that philosophy.

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04-21-2013, 03:18 PM
  #315
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Burke can take solace in recognizing the team is playing its best hockey now, when he is no longer around making any of the decisions..

Living vicariously through the success of others that he was unable to obtain, while left soul searching among his numerous failures for reasons that led to his dismissal.
Yes I am sure Brian Burke is really upset about his numerous failures. Every time he sees them score I'm sure he is upset because he couldn't be the one to bring frazer mclaren the glue to the team.

Some people are so ridiculous

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04-21-2013, 04:07 PM
  #316
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Yes I am sure Brian Burke is really upset about his numerous failures. Every time he sees them score I'm sure he is upset because he couldn't be the one to bring frazer mclaren the glue to the team.

Some people are so ridiculous
You're right. Burke must be sitting at home, pondering how Nonis is able to have this much success, when he with the same personnel produced so much failure.

Burke directed his players "like an 18-wheeler off a cliff", so I'm sure he is learning from the error of his ways, watching Nonis' example on how to succeed.

I'm sure Burke will soon realize that if the players are the same, but the results are vastly different that he himself was the problem as the factor that is different in the personnel equation that and management has changed.

Afterall, if you give two different GM's the same players to work with, and one fails, while the other one succeeds its fairly obvious, using basic logic to determine the reason.

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04-21-2013, 04:14 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
You're right. Burke must be sitting at home, pondering how Nonis is able to have this much success, when he with the same personnel produced so much failure.

Burke directed his players "like an 18-wheeler off a cliff", so I'm sure he is learning from the error of his ways, watching Nonis' example on how to succeed.

I'm sure Burke will soon realize that if the players are the same, but the results are vastly different that he himself was the problem as the factor that is different in the personnel equation that and management has changed.

Afterall, if you give two different GM's the same players to work with, and one fails, while the other one succeeds its fairly obvious, using basic logic to determine the reason.
When will you acknowledge that RON WILSON no longer coaches this team?

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04-21-2013, 06:01 PM
  #318
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And of the seven cited, were any of those clubs GMs presented with the same scope of address required? Factoring in pre-existing cores, sequence of top 5 picks, etc..
Burke inherited teenage players drafted 5th overall and 13th overall.
He then had 4 straight bottom 10 finishes in a row (7th overall, 2nd overall, 9th overall, 5th overall)
And that doesn't even include other players such as Grabo, Kulemin, and Reimer.

Do you really think it would be hard to get some good players trading/drafting with those picks?

Once again... 5 nhl seasons (minus 2 months) would be the bare minimum of expectations for making the playoffs.
You seem to think that 5 seasons minus 2 months was spectacular.
So, under that line of reasoning, would you be saying that Burke did a "pretty good job" if it took him 9 years to make the playoffs?
Would you be saying the same things as you are now? "Given the poor players he inherited, Burke still did a pretty good job."

And none of this even takes into account Burkes dramatic financial advantages over the majority of other teams that struggled to make the playoffs the past few seasons.
At what point are your expectations just too low for the highest paid gm in the league.

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04-21-2013, 07:32 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Burke inherited teenage players drafted 5th overall and 13th overall.
He then had 4 straight bottom 10 finishes in a row (7th overall, 2nd overall, 9th overall, 5th overall)
And that doesn't even include other players such as Grabo, Kulemin, and Reimer.

Do you really think it would be hard to get some good players trading/drafting with those picks?

Once again... 5 nhl seasons (minus 2 months) would be the bare minimum of expectations for making the playoffs.
You seem to think that 5 seasons minus 2 months was spectacular.
So, under that line of reasoning, would you be saying that Burke did a "pretty good job" if it took him 9 years to make the playoffs?
Would you be saying the same things as you are now? "Given the poor players he inherited, Burke still did a pretty good job."

And none of this even takes into account Burkes dramatic financial advantages over the majority of other teams that struggled to make the playoffs the past few seasons.
At what point are your expectations just too low for the highest paid gm in the league.
Three years ten months. Why do you continually change the facts????

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04-21-2013, 07:39 PM
  #320
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You're right. Burke must be sitting at home, pondering how Nonis is able to have this much success, when he with the same personnel produced so much failure.

Burke directed his players "like an 18-wheeler off a cliff", so I'm sure he is learning from the error of his ways, watching Nonis' example on how to succeed.

I'm sure Burke will soon realize that if the players are the same, but the results are vastly different that he himself was the problem as the factor that is different in the personnel equation that and management has changed.

Afterall, if you give two different GM's the same players to work with, and one fails, while the other one succeeds its fairly obvious, using basic logic to determine the reason.
Do you really believe this. Aren't you the same person who went on a continual tirade about how tlusty had to go because he took a picture of his gear and now whine about Burke trading him???

It's simple. Teams go on streaks teams go bad. The coach is the difference. Anaheim has the same team this year. No new gm. Who deserves the credit? No one?

Wilson lost the team. Carlyle has them for now. That's the difference. Do you believe the difference between 7th and 25 is frazer mclaren and Ryan o Byrne ??

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04-21-2013, 07:48 PM
  #321
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It could be that the core players are older, and better. Sometimes that is the case. Or so I hear

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04-21-2013, 07:51 PM
  #322
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Three years ten months. Why do you continually change the facts????
Since Burke first arrived as GM of the leafs, it's took 5 nhl seasons (minus 2 months) for the leafs to play a post season game.

No lies, no spin.
Just truth.

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04-21-2013, 08:46 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Since Burke first arrived as GM of the leafs, it's took 5 nhl seasons (minus 2 months) for the leafs to play a post season game.

No lies, no spin.
Just truth.
So, from a team-building perspective, you really believe the NHL season begins in October and not July 1, when GMs really start to make the moves to shape the team for that season? Sounds like spin to me.

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04-21-2013, 08:58 PM
  #324
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You're right. Burke must be sitting at home, pondering how Nonis is able to have this much success, when he with the same personnel produced so much failure.

Burke directed his players "like an 18-wheeler off a cliff", so I'm sure he is learning from the error of his ways, watching Nonis' example on how to succeed.

I'm sure Burke will soon realize that if the players are the same, but the results are vastly different that he himself was the problem as the factor that is different in the personnel equation that and management has changed.

Afterall, if you give two different GM's the same players to work with, and one fails, while the other one succeeds its fairly obvious, using basic logic to determine the reason.
He knows exactly how, Randy, the guy he hired. Plain and simple.

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04-21-2013, 09:00 PM
  #325
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Since Burke first arrived as GM of the leafs, it's took 5 nhl seasons (minus 2 months) for the leafs to play a post season game.

No lies, no spin.
Just truth.
Burke has not been the GM of the leafs while they made the playoffs... That's ok. He was the GM of the leafs for 3 years and 10 months. He never made the playoffs here. But in less than 4 years he added the main pieces of the playoff team.

Again show me a GM who in 3 years and 10 months acquired more talent?

2 top 5 scoring Defensemen. A back to back top 10 scorer who is the 4th leading scorer in the NHL over 2 years. An all star winger. An NHL all rookie defenseman, a 2nd overall pick on pace for 30 goals, a solid college ufa 2nd line center, a .5ppg defenseman. Never mind all of the picks.

Show me a team that acquired more in 3 years and 10 months. I have been waiting for a while. You keep telling us that burke should have done more quicker. Show me a team that has..... 3 years 10 months...... Go....

PS we are still waiting for your Seguin point projections at 24-25. Do you think he will be a top 4 scorer? who will he beat?

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