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Interview Dave Feschuk talks about his last article in the Star. Burke wants credit

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Old
04-22-2013, 10:34 PM
  #426
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This isn't Burkes team , Burke was fired and Nonis moved around the pieces he inherited from Burke-Cliffy-JFJ to build a playoff team .

I don't see us making the playoffs without any of Reims-Kessel-Kadri or DP and I don't see us making the playoffs with TC-Steckel-Komi in the lineup taking up valuable roster spots .
Good thing Carlyle chooses the line-ups then.

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04-22-2013, 10:34 PM
  #427
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So what would have had to happen for you (and DO, should he feel so inclined to answer) to consider 1) the team a "legit contender", and 2) Burke to be a man of his word in regards to his opening day statement?
If Burke said at the beginning that the team needed a long rebuild, I would consider his job a success if we were still missing the playoffs and were full of elite teenage stars like Edmonton.

If Burke said at the beginning that he was against 5 year rebuilds and was doing a retool, I would consider his job a success if he pulled off a Montreal style one or two year turn around.

Again, it's his ******** in between that I believe will keep us in mediocrity.

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04-22-2013, 10:38 PM
  #428
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If Burke said at the beginning that the team needed a long rebuild, I would consider his job a success if we were still missing the playoffs and were full of elite teenage stars like Edmonton.

If Burke said at the beginning that he was against 5 year rebuilds and was doing a retool, I would consider his job a success if he pulled off a Montreal style one or two year turn around.

Again, it's his ******** in between that I believe will keep us in mediocrity.
So RNH, Hall, Yakupov and no Playoffs is success, while Kessel (I include him because he's the reason we don't have the elite teenagers you want), Kadri, Rielly and Playoffs is a failure. Got it.

Also, people do realize that the guy who built the Oilers was just fired as well, right?

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04-22-2013, 10:44 PM
  #429
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I wanted either a long slow proper rebuild, and then be full of utterly elite young players for a decade (ala Edmonton)...
or a successful "retool" in which we do a Montreal style turn around.

Burke did some ******** in between.
5 years of watching a pathetic team... and instead of looking utterly elite in the future (ala Edmonton), we look... well... not bad?
Not good enough.
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Originally Posted by IBeL13f View Post
So what would have had to happen for you (and DO, should he feel so inclined to answer) to consider 1) the team a "legit contender", and 2) Burke to be a man of his word in regards to his opening day statement?
I think this DO post answered what I wanted to see out of Burke .

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04-22-2013, 10:47 PM
  #430
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I think this DO post answered what I wanted to see out of Burke .
Then I'll ask you the same question. What, along with the Kessel deal, ever made you believe he wasn't going for that slow, long rebuild?

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04-22-2013, 10:50 PM
  #431
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Good thing Carlyle chooses the line-ups then.
Enough with this crap about how the coach chooses the line up . No coach who wants to keep his job goes against the wishes of his GM .

Nonis was in a good position because none of the players other than Lupul were tied to him contract wise and he probably got the go ahead from the board to do whatever moves he thought were necessary to improve the team .

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04-22-2013, 10:51 PM
  #432
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So RNH, Hall, Yakupov and no Playoffs is success, while Kessel (I include him because he's the reason we don't have the elite teenagers you want), Kadri, Rielly and Playoffs is a failure. Got it.

Also, people do realize that the guy who built the Oilers was just fired as well, right?
Both leafs owners and Oilers owners thought their GM's were failures and fired them.

But I think Edmonton is a future cup contending team for years to come. Their elite players are like 19, 20, 21, etc.
I can understand that their owners grew impatient... but they're a future freaking dynasty.

The leafs are a future... uh... decent team?
I think very very few people (other than leaf fans of course) look at the current leafs and see a future elite cup contending team.
Even with the highest paid GM, highest paid front office, ability to spend to the ceiling every season, highest paid scouting department, 5 top 10 picks over the past 5 years...
we're a future "not bad" team.
I don't consider that a success.
Or anything close to it.

Maybe they'll surprise me.
But similarly, maybe Columbus' team will surprise me.
It doesn't say much.

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04-22-2013, 11:01 PM
  #433
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Enough with this crap about how the coach chooses the line up . No coach who wants to keep his job goes against the wishes of his GM .

Nonis was in a good position because none of the players other than Lupul were tied to him contract wise and he probably got the go ahead from the board to do whatever moves he thought were necessary to improve the team .
And no GM who wants to keep his job goes against the wishes of his owners and tells their multi-billion dollar fan-base that they're going to intentionally suck for 5 years.

That second paragraph is far too hypothetical to hold any weight when trying to prove that Burke would not have allowed Carlyle to dress the line-up he, as coach, wanted.

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04-22-2013, 11:05 PM
  #434
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Then I'll ask you the same question. What, along with the Kessel deal, ever made you believe he wasn't going for that slow, long rebuild?
Burke did the Kessel trade at an attempt to "retool".
Didn't want to wait the time it would take to develop prospects, so he trades for the young proven player.

After 2 years, it's abundantly clear the retool failed, and our 2nd and 9th overall picks went to a divisional rival.

It put the "rebuild" behind by at least a few years... and that's why after 5 nhl seasons (minus 2 months) we're only NOW making the playoffs, and are still not a future elite team.

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04-22-2013, 11:10 PM
  #435
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Then I'll ask you the same question. What, along with the Kessel deal, ever made you believe he wasn't going for that slow, long rebuild?
Trading 2 first

Dealing Kubina for nothing so he could open up cap space

Signing Komi-Beau

Trading prospects for Steeg

Trading Poni for what he thought was a near ready prospect instead of the 2nd and 4th he said he was offered because he said he wasn't interested in waiting for the picks to develop

keeping Kabs for so long to try to win now when he could have gotten a similar if not better deal earlier

Signing TC

Trading for JML and then resigning him to a long term contract

Resigning Grabo instead of the taking the rumored pkg

It was a slow motion tear down , he'd tried to improve in the summer and when he couldn't he'd move the odd piece out . Basically the only time he made moves for the future was when the season was already lost .

Also I don't want to hear about this stop gap crap that was invented to defend his pitiful signings . We could have lost just as easily with the Brents and the Crabbs of the league at a fraction of the price and kept the cap space open in case a deal popped up .

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04-22-2013, 11:18 PM
  #436
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Both leafs owners and Oilers owners thought their GM's were failures and fired them.

But I think Edmonton is a future cup contending team for years to come. Their elite players are like 19, 20, 21, etc.
I can understand that their owners grew impatient... but they're a future freaking dynasty.

The leafs are a future... uh... decent team?
I think very very few people (other than leaf fans of course) look at the current leafs and see a future elite cup contending team.
Even with the highest paid GM, highest paid front office, ability to spend to the ceiling every season, highest paid scouting department, 5 top 10 picks over the past 5 years...
we're a future "not bad" team.
I don't consider that a success.
Or anything close to it.

Maybe they'll surprise me.
But similarly, maybe Columbus' team will surprise me.
It doesn't say much.
We're a current good team, and our elite players are 29, 28, 25, 25, 23, 22, 22, 19, (with a plethora of good B-prospects (Colborne, Biggs, Ashton, Finn, Percy, Ross, Sparks, etc.) in the pipe-line, what's wrong with that? Every single one of those are players brought in by that GM over the last 4 years, except for 1.

Columbus will probably have a great hockey team soon. I'm of the belief that the whole League is going to be 30 extremely good hockey teams within the next 6-8 years. That's not that long, if you think about it; every one of the players you or I have mentioned will still most likely be able to contribute in some capacity, the vast majority of them in their absolute peak years. They already have some very nice pieces in place with Gaborik, Johansen, Dubinsky, Anisimov, Johnson, and Bobrovsky, plus 3 1st-round picks in what is supposed to be a very deep draft this June.

Again, it seems to me like the two of you got exactly what you wanted, but just choose to complain for the sake of it.

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04-22-2013, 11:22 PM
  #437
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And no GM who wants to keep his job goes against the wishes of his owners and tells their multi-billion dollar fan-base that they're going to intentionally suck for 5 years.
That second paragraph is far too hypothetical to hold any weight when trying to prove that Burke would not have allowed Carlyle to dress the line-up he, as coach, wanted.
Why was that his only other choice? He could have just shut the **** up and did his job quietly like pretty much the majority of the other GM's in the league .

What's so hypothetical about a GM not wanting to cover up for his mistakes ? How many GM's do you think could survive telling there owner they're continually wasting millions of there dollars.

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04-22-2013, 11:31 PM
  #438
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
I support this team and can't wait to watch them in the playoffs.
Yes, the team is largely made by Burke.

But my point is a barnyard animal as GM could have made the playoffs after 5 nhl seasons minus 2 months, with 5th, 13th, 7th, 2nd, 9th, and 5th overall picks/prospects, and more financial advantages than any other GM.

If leaf fans would just stop trying to argue that he was a success , discussions like these would disappear and we could just cheer for our team.
Ok, how much weight does a better coach at present calculate into your theory? Do you see this as a better coached team? If yes, would the time frame have been shortened by the better coaching.

If you have decided Carlyle is not a higher performing coach, i don't see where we would go any further with your reply just on contention of percieved coaching standards.

Putting up the picks lost with the exclusion of the additions doesn't lend its way to a explaination of true process either i'm thinkin.

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04-22-2013, 11:41 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Enough with this crap about how the coach chooses the line up . No coach who wants to keep his job goes against the wishes of his GM .

Nonis was in a good position because none of the players other than Lupul were tied to him contract wise and he probably got the go ahead from the board to do whatever moves he thought were necessary to improve the team .
The coaches pick their team. Wilson did, and Carlyle did/does. It's their job. This 'crap' is reality whether it supports your narrative or not.

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04-22-2013, 11:41 PM
  #440
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Ok, how much weight does a better coach at present calculate into your theory? Do you see this as a better coached team? If yes, would the time frame have been shortened by the better coaching.

If you have decided Carlyle is not a higher performing coach, i don't see where we would go any further with your reply just on contention of percieved coaching standards.

Putting up the picks lost with the exclusion of the additions doesn't lend its way to a explaination of true process either i'm thinkin.
If you think Burke kept Wilson along for far too long... well... then that's Burkes fault.

And I'm saying Burke had all of those picks/prospects to work with.
5th, 13th, 7th, 2nd, 9th, 5th.
Whether he trades those picks/prospects for star players, or drafts/develops star players... he had a hell of a lot to work with since he arrived.
I fail to see how ANY gm wouldn't have a few star players here and there by now given all that Burke had to work with.

"Burke was able to get a few decent players out of 5th, 13th, 7th, 2nd, 9th, and 5th overall picks/prospects. HE'S A GENIUS!!!!"
Unacceptably low expectations.

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04-22-2013, 11:45 PM
  #441
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The coaches pick their team. Wilson did, and Carlyle did/does. It's their job. This 'crap' is reality whether it supports your narrative or not.
So if Wilson made a bunch of terrible choices, IT'S BURKES ****ING FAULT FOR KEEPING HIM AROUND SO LONG.

My overall point is that... sure... Burke eventually get's to where he needs to be.
It just takes WAY TOO ****ING LONG!!!

Way too long to fire Wilson.
Way too long to make the playoffs.
Way too long to get fired.

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04-22-2013, 11:54 PM
  #442
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
So if Wilson made a bunch of terrible choices, IT'S BURKES ****ING FAULT FOR KEEPING HIM AROUND SO LONG.

My overall point is that... sure... Burke eventually get's to where he needs to be.
It just takes WAY TOO ****ING LONG!!!

Way too long to fire Wilson.
Way too long to make the playoffs.
Way too long to get fired.
Your impatience is irrelevant.

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04-22-2013, 11:56 PM
  #443
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The coaches pick their team. Wilson did, and Carlyle did/does. It's their job. This 'crap' is reality whether it supports your narrative or not.
It's actually sad people believe this .

How long do you think a coach would last if he started cutting his GM's big money players without his permission and why do you think a GM would allow his coach to make him look like an idiot instead of replacing him .

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04-23-2013, 12:02 AM
  #444
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Your impatience is irrelevant.
Ha.
Richest team in the league is the team with the longest Stanley Cup drought (up until last week).
And you call me "impatient".

If you wait in line for something for 5 minutes and then freak out... you're impatient.
If you wait in line for an entire day, and then criticize the process... it's not 'impatience'... it's showing the adequate amount of frustration given the situation.
I'd say the people standing in line all day complacently claiming that everything is being handled properly are the ones that have something seriously wrong with them.

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04-23-2013, 12:02 AM
  #445
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It's actually sad people believe this .

How long do you think a coach would last if he started cutting his GM's big money players without his permission and why do you think a GM would allow his coach to make him look like an idiot instead of replacing him .
It's not sad, nor is it a matter of belief. It just is.

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04-23-2013, 12:03 AM
  #446
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Your impatience is irrelevant.
None of our opinions are relevant .

The only person that is relevant is Mr. Cope and he decided Burkes services were no longer required .

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04-23-2013, 12:05 AM
  #447
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Will we ever stop talking about Brian friggin Burke?

The guy's history, let's move on.

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04-23-2013, 12:18 AM
  #448
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If you think Burke kept Wilson along for far too long... well... then that's Burkes fault.

And I'm saying Burke had all of those picks/prospects to work with.
5th, 13th, 7th, 2nd, 9th, 5th.
Whether he trades those picks/prospects for star players, or drafts/develops star players... he had a hell of a lot to work with since he arrived.
I fail to see how ANY gm wouldn't have a few star players here and there by now given all that Burke had to work with.

"Burke was able to get a few decent players out of 5th, 13th, 7th, 2nd, 9th, and 5th overall picks/prospects. HE'S A GENIUS!!!!"
Unacceptably low expectations.
I absolutely believe Burke kept Wilson to long and that is his fault. He also fired Wilson and thats his fault too. I will ask you again,do you think the coaching present is better than the past coach?

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04-23-2013, 12:38 AM
  #449
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Trading 2 first - I can appreciate both sides of the Kessel deal argument, so I won't get into that conversation here. But at the time, we were acquiring a 22-year-old, 5th-Overall, 36-goal sniper. He's developed into one of the elite offensive threats in the NHL and is only just entering his prime.

Dealing Kubina for nothing so he could open up cap space - Actually, oddly enough, the Kubina deal, through a chain of transactions, is partially responsible for the Kessel deal being possible. Kubina was dealt for Exelby and Stuart. Exelby went became a UFA, but Stuart was later dealt in a move to Calgary, which brought in Wayne Primeau and a 2nd-round pick. Once again, Primeau hit free-agency, while the 2nd-rounder was eventually shipped out. It went to Chicago, so that we could get our own 2nd-round pick back. That was done in order for Burke to apply the pressure of an offer-sheet during negotiations with Chiarelli. Beyond that fun fact, Kubina's cap-space was then used to sign Mike Komisarek, who, at the time, was expected to be able to a strong, stabilizing force on our blue-line.

Signing Komi-Beau - At no point did anyone say that a long, slow rebuild meant you couldn't try to improve your team at the cost of nothing but cap space. In fact, it plays a key role in the rebuilding process, as part of doing it properly is giving your prospects the necessary time to develop. Not all elite players dominate the NHL at the age of 19, there's usually a learning curve that includes time spent in the minors. One of the things that makes it easier to do that is by having veteran guys on short-term contracts (Komisarek was 5, but none of Beauchemin, Armstrong, Connolly, or Lebda ran longer than 3), so that you don't have to feel pressured to throw them into the NHL before they're ready. Komisarek and Connolly straight up haven't worked out in regards to adding to our competitiveness, and that does suck. But Beauchemin and Lebda were later used in deals that brought in Lupul (All-Star, 3rd in points-per-game when he's been healthy this year, alternate captain) and Gardiner (30-point rookie season) and Franson (8th in scoring for Defensemen), pieces that are becoming a huge part of our rebuild.

Trading prospects for Steeg - Versteeg was 24, and a Stanley Cup Champion. And when he didn't work out, he was dealt for even younger prospects (Stuart Percy and Josh Leivo)

Trading Poni for what he thought was a near ready prospect instead of the 2nd and 4th he said he was offered because he said he wasn't interested in waiting for the picks to develop - Who in the 2nd Round from the 2010 draft are you upset that we don't have over Kevin Marshall?

keeping Kabs for so long to try to win now when he could have gotten a similar if not better deal earlier - Seriously? The return we got was his replacement (Liles), Colborne and Biggs. That's a great haul for a defensemen who wasn't retained by his acquiring team, traded by his new team only months after signing a contract, and then waived by that acquiring team, before he left to play in Europe. Liles alone has played far more games for Toronto than Kaberle ever did for Boston, Colborne looks about ready to jump onto our 3rd-line in the next year, and Biggs has the potential to become a Ryane Clowe type of power-forward, something we've been lacking for a decade. Your argument for this being against a proper rebuild is that he waited too long and maybe, possibly missed out on something better than that, without anything to back it up with?

Signing TC - See free-agent signings above.

Trading for JML and then resigning him to a long term contract - I can see how losing Mike Winther could potentially throw a wrench in our rebuild, but beyond the fact that Liles has played great for us when fully healthy, he also brought an element that we were lacking on our blue-line since dealing Kaberle, and gave us a PMD while Gardiner develops his game.

Resigning Grabo instead of the taking the rumored pkg - Not sure what the rumoured package was, so it's hard to comment much on that aspect, but re-signing a guy who was unquestionably your #2-Centre coming off of a career year made a lot of sense when you didn't know that Kadri was going to explode this season, or that Grabo would regress to the extent he has this year. That situation's been a mess this year, but that doesn't mean that the move was against a re-build back when Burke had anything to do with decision-making.

It was a slow motion tear down , he'd tried to improve in the summer and when he couldn't he'd move the odd piece out . Basically the only time he made moves for the future was when the season was already lost . - You mean around the trade deadline, when most teams make most of their transactions?

Also I don't want to hear about this stop gap crap that was invented to defend his pitiful signings . We could have lost just as easily with the Brents and the Crabbs of the league at a fraction of the price and kept the cap space open in case a deal popped up . - The benefit of those "stop-gap" signings is two-fold, as mentioned above. The intention upon signing them was to try and help the team win. They were the best pieces available, that could be acquired by means that would make sense for the future of the organization. It allowed Burke to stay true to his word that he would try and be competitive at the present. But it also did allow for an important part of the kind of rebuild he wanted to do, one that goes beyond the players that you draft, and focuses more on how you develop your prospects, regardless of how high they were drafted.
My responses are in bold. He took the long, slow rebuild approach that you guys wanted, gave it some integrity, and then improved on it, so that in a few years, you could have the kind of team you could be proud to say were your Toronto Maple Leafs, one that would churn out mean, gritty, defensive, Canadian-style hockey players and breed it into the organization like it should be. It may still take a couple of years to fully get into gear, but we're starting to see the beginnings of it now, and rest assured, by the time we have a team you are proud to stand behind, it will still be 90% Burke's doing.

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04-23-2013, 12:44 AM
  #450
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As someone who lived in Montreal and watched a lot of habs games, why not look at the three seasons before last? Montreal was a much better team then their record last year. Montreal did not have a miraculous one year rebuild, no matter how hard anyone tries to spin it.
Montreal made great rebuild. Bergevin looked in the back of the warehouse and founded. One franchise goaltender, two great two-way dman who are great PP QBs, 3rd overall which can fix one big hole in your roster and average NHL offence corps. Montreal has to retool but they have had some pieces in place for a long time. Price, Subban, Markov, Pacioretty, Plekanec, Emelin and Gorges. That's ok core for NHL team, then they have good prospects that seems to be contributing in the league.

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Burke deserves credit, no denying that. Same way that Howson and Gauthier do.
You are disguising your praise as insult. Terrible comparisons. Those persons made much more damage than Burke ever. As saying that Burke was okay, it's your opinion and it's good as mine.

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