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Interview Dave Feschuk talks about his last article in the Star. Burke wants credit

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Old
04-23-2013, 01:55 AM
  #451
Duke Silver
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It humours me how people are still harping on this, from both sides.

For a team that just made the playoffs the negativity is off the charts. Burke deserves the lion's share of the credit for this team turning the corner. I think most would find it hard to discredit that statement, try as they may.

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04-23-2013, 02:05 AM
  #452
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Will we ever stop talking about Brian friggin Burke?

The guy's history, let's move on.
A lot of people feel utterly humiliated that they supported a pathetic GM for a very long time who got fired for his incompetency.

It's generally part of human nature to try and save face in the event of such humiliation.

So whenever the leafs FINALLY made the playoffs (whether 5 nhl seasons since Burke was hired, 8 nhl seasons, 15 nhl seasons, doesn'tmatter) his supporters would still remember the need to save face and try and rid themselves of the utter humiliation they felt when he was fired for his incompetence.

If the leafs made the playoffs for the first time 10 years from now, I have no doubt that the Burke supporters would chime in claiming that it was the foundation Burke set up that allowed us to make the playoffs. Not a single doubt in my mind.

I'm almost at the point where I think we should help these poor souls alleviate their humiliation. Then they won't have to keep talking about how they think Burke did a good job.
Maybe if we created a thread entitled "you were right" and we'll all simply pretend that we think Burke did a great job and their is no need to feel humiliated any longer for defending him...
maybe then these types of arguments will disappear.

Until then... we're probably often going to hear that making the playoffs after 5 nhl seasons (minus 2 months) as the richest team in the league with the highest paid GM who had 5th, 13th, 2nd, 9th, 7th, and 5th overall picks/prospects to work with was a GREAT JOB!!!

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04-23-2013, 02:08 AM
  #453
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Originally Posted by Duke Silver View Post
It humours me how people are still harping on this, from both sides.

For a team that just made the playoffs the negativity is off the charts. Burke deserves the lion's share of the credit for this team turning the corner. I think most would find it hard to discredit that statement, try as they may.
It's true.
Burke deserves the lions share of the credit.

But if Burke was the GM for another 5 years and then finally made the playoffs, couldn't his supporters still say that?
That after 10 years, the leafs are finally in the playoffs and Burke deserves the lions share of the credit? After all, he inherited a team that was abysmal, and our team now has depth top to bottom.
Took a little longer than expected, but GOOD JOB BURKIE!!!!

Again, there's not a doubt in my mind that Burke supporters would say that. Even if it took 15 years. 20 years. No years would matter.
They 'like' Burke, so he did a good job. The end.

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04-23-2013, 02:22 AM
  #454
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
A lot of people feel utterly humiliated that they supported a pathetic GM for a very long time who got fired for his incompetency.

It's generally part of human nature to try and save face in the event of such humiliation.

So whenever the leafs FINALLY made the playoffs (whether 5 nhl seasons since Burke was hired, 8 nhl seasons, 15 nhl seasons, doesn'tmatter) his supporters would still remember the need to save face and try and rid themselves of the utter humiliation they felt when he was fired for his incompetence.

If the leafs made the playoffs for the first time 10 years from now, I have no doubt that the Burke supporters would chime in claiming that it was the foundation Burke set up that allowed us to make the playoffs. Not a single doubt in my mind.

I'm almost at the point where I think we should help these poor souls alleviate their humiliation. Then they won't have to keep talking about how they think Burke did a good job.
Maybe if we created a thread entitled "you were right" and we'll all simply pretend that we think Burke did a great job and their is no need to feel humiliated any longer for defending him...
maybe then these types of arguments will disappear.

Until then... we're probably often going to hear that making the playoffs after 5 nhl seasons (minus 2 months) as the richest team in the league with the highest paid GM who had 5th, 13th, 2nd, 9th, 7th, and 5th overall picks/prospects to work with was a GREAT JOB!!!
If Edmonton becomes the powerhouse you think they can become in the next 5 years with Hall, RNH, Yakupov, Eberle and Schultz leading the way, will Steve Tambellini get credit for it? Absolutely. And they still haven't made the Playoffs. So if the point is to suck, then get better, then be really good, what part of the current procession of the Leafs angers you so much? Hell, it wasn't even all that gradual, once it actually kicked in, we jumped from 5th last to 9th, that's 15 spots. The only additions to the roster after Burke's release are McLaren and O'Byrne, who most will agree, while fine guys for their roles, aren't exactly every-night game-breakers. Also, for someone accusing others of trying to save face, I would like to point out one more time that you wanted us to suck, so that we could get better, and then be good, and now that we're getting good, you continue to put down the guy who did exactly what you wanted, as well as those who supported him all along, just so that you don't have to admit that you were wrong about what he was doing.

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04-23-2013, 02:26 AM
  #455
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
It's true.
Burke deserves the lions share of the credit.

But if Burke was the GM for another 5 years and then finally made the playoffs, couldn't his supporters still say that?
That after 10 years, the leafs are finally in the playoffs and Burke deserves the lions share of the credit? After all, he inherited a team that was abysmal, and our team now has depth top to bottom.
Took a little longer than expected, but GOOD JOB BURKIE!!!!

Again, there's not a doubt in my mind that Burke supporters would say that. Even if it took 15 years. 20 years. No years would matter.
They 'like' Burke, so he did a good job. The end.
Truth is, the Leafs became a playoff team, the Marlies became championship contenders, and the entire farm system has been substantially upgraded. Not in 20,15, or 10 years, but within the duration of the 5 year contract he signed.

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04-23-2013, 02:30 AM
  #456
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My responses are in bold. He took the long, slow rebuild approach that you guys wanted, gave it some integrity, and then improved on it, so that in a few years, you could have the kind of team you could be proud to say were your Toronto Maple Leafs, one that would churn out mean, gritty, defensive, Canadian-style hockey players and breed it into the organization like it should be. It may still take a couple of years to fully get into gear, but we're starting to see the beginnings of it now, and rest assured, by the time we have a team you are proud to stand behind, it will still be 90% Burke's doing.
You asked me for a list of moves Burke made to show he intended to win much sooner than this team did and I supplied them . Just because his moves failed doesn't mean he intended to do a long slow rebuild .

What I wanted was for him to gut the team quickly and acquire as many picks and quality prospects as he could while keeping our picks . What I got was a half assed quickie retool followed by spinning to defend his failure .

Making the playoffs isn't a great accomplishment and being a perennial lower seed or bubble team isn't what I would call a successful rebuild after all this time .

The team now isn't close to being 90% Burke and it won't be in the coming seasons . Also any GM that had the 7th-2nd-9th and 5th overall picks while selling off the assets he inherited would have acquired quality assets so it's not like Burke accomplish something spectacular with the path he choose .

The goal was to build a cup contender and the problem I have with Burke isn't that he didn't improve the team it's that he could have laid the foundation for long run of success and missed that opportunity . We're now a decent team but outside of Reilly we have zero projectable impact prospects .

I don't understand this love affair with Burke . He was an employee who failed at his assigned task and was let go . It's now Nonis' job to pick up where he left off and get us to where we want to be or he'll be replaced . The show is on the ice not in the GM's box and that's what the people pay for .

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04-23-2013, 02:30 AM
  #457
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If Edmonton becomes the powerhouse you think they can become in the next 5 years with Hall, RNH, Yakupov, Eberle and Schultz leading the way, will Steve Tambellini get credit for it? Absolutely. And they still haven't made the Playoffs. So if the point is to suck, then get better, then be really good, what part of the current procession of the Leafs angers you so much? Hell, it wasn't even all that gradual, once it actually kicked in, we jumped from 5th last to 9th, that's 15 spots. The only additions to the roster after Burke's release are McLaren and O'Byrne, who most will agree, while fine guys for their roles, aren't exactly every-night game-breakers. Also, for someone accusing others of trying to save face, I would like to point out one more time that you wanted us to suck, so that we could get better, and then be good, and now that we're getting good, you continue to put down the guy who did exactly what you wanted, as well as those who supported him all along, just so that you don't have to admit that you were wrong about what he was doing.
Edmonton (doing a proper rebuild) will be ELITE down the road.

I simply don't think the leafs will. Very few people (other than leaf fans) think the leafs are a future elite team.
Nowhere even close, really.

I know that you "like" the leafs, so you think they'll be elite later... the end.
But things don't really work that way.

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04-23-2013, 02:30 AM
  #458
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
A lot of people feel utterly humiliated that they supported a pathetic GM for a very long time who got fired for his incompetency.

It's generally part of human nature to try and save face in the event of such humiliation.

So whenever the leafs FINALLY made the playoffs (whether 5 nhl seasons since Burke was hired, 8 nhl seasons, 15 nhl seasons, doesn'tmatter) his supporters would still remember the need to save face and try and rid themselves of the utter humiliation they felt when he was fired for his incompetence.

If the leafs made the playoffs for the first time 10 years from now, I have no doubt that the Burke supporters would chime in claiming that it was the foundation Burke set up that allowed us to make the playoffs. Not a single doubt in my mind.

I'm almost at the point where I think we should help these poor souls alleviate their humiliation. Then they won't have to keep talking about how they think Burke did a good job.
Maybe if we created a thread entitled "you were right" and we'll all simply pretend that we think Burke did a great job and their is no need to feel humiliated any longer for defending him...
maybe then these types of arguments will disappear.

Until then... we're probably often going to hear that making the playoffs after 5 nhl seasons (minus 2 months) as the richest team in the league with the highest paid GM who had 5th, 13th, 2nd, 9th, 7th, and 5th overall picks/prospects to work with was a GREAT JOB!!!
Giving him credit for the club making the playoffs this season isn't necessarily saying he did a good job as a GM. It just means that the steps that he took to build the club eventually had the result he was hoping for. It wasn`t supposed to take this long, and it cost him his job, but the club finally appears to be just a number 1 center away from being a contender.

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04-23-2013, 02:37 AM
  #459
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Giving him credit for the club making the playoffs this season isn't necessarily saying he did a good job as a GM. It just means that the steps that he took to build the club eventually had the result he was hoping for. It wasn`t supposed to take this long, and it cost him his job, but the club finally appears to be just a number 1 center away from being a contender.
That's very close to an argument that I would agree with.

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04-23-2013, 02:41 AM
  #460
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Edmonton (doing a proper rebuild) will be ELITE down the road.

I simply don't think the leafs will. Very few people (other than leaf fans) think the leafs are a future elite team.
Nowhere even close, really.

I know that you "like" the leafs, so you think they'll be elite later... the end.
But things don't really work that way.
The supporters keep missing the " elite " part of this discussion .

Making the playoffs is great but we'll have to go through teams like the Pens- Hawks to win the cup and we're no where close to beating them a 7 game series .

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04-23-2013, 02:41 AM
  #461
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Truth is, the Leafs became a playoff team, the Marlies became championship contenders, and the entire farm system has been substantially upgraded. Not in 20,15, or 10 years, but within the duration of the 5 year contract he signed.
First off, the Marlies team that Burke inherited had a MUCH better season than the current Marlies team.

2nd... My point is... if you consider 5 nhl seasons (minus 2 months) to be "successful" for the highest paid nhl gm in the league with the most financial advantages, than what would you consider "average" for the highest paid nhl gm in the league with the most financial advantages?

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04-23-2013, 02:43 AM
  #462
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The supporters keep missing the " elite " part of this discussion .

Making the playoffs is great but we'll have to go through teams like the Pens- Hawks to win the cup and we're no where close to beating them a 7 game series .
Edmonton is much closer.

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04-23-2013, 02:44 AM
  #463
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Giving him credit for the club making the playoffs this season isn't necessarily saying he did a good job as a GM. It just means that the steps that he took to build the club eventually had the result he was hoping for. It wasn`t supposed to take this long, and it cost him his job, but the club finally appears to be just a number 1 center away from being a contender.
A number 1 or 2 C a couple of solid D and more grit in our top 9 forwards .

What he built was team that could win a round or maybe two if things went our way but it won't challenge for a cup and that's the goal .

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04-23-2013, 02:46 AM
  #464
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Maybe when you guys learn that there's more to an organization than how high the players were selected in the Entry Draft you'll have more fun watching this team.

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04-23-2013, 02:54 AM
  #465
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Edmonton is much closer.
Leafs became a playoff team faster (well... actually remains to be seen)
But the oilers will become cup contenders faster.
They have utterly elite young players that will grow into their primes together.

By the time the leafs young core hit their primes, their veteran elite players (phaneuf, lupul) will be well past their primes.

Edmonton just did a PROPER rebuild, and will reap the benefits later.
Even I agree... it's taking too long. But at least they'll be rewarded with an ELITE team for their patience. Not merely making the playoffs.

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04-23-2013, 02:57 AM
  #466
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Edmonton is much closer.
Edm is much closer to winning the cup . They have the majority of the main pieces and will be adding another blue chip prospect this summer .

Tambo's an idiot and there team could have been much better if concentrated on adding a few gritty support pieces instead of wasting cap money on useless vets . He needed to add a couple of players like Mcclement and Prust which aren't that hard to find . He also had assets to trade for a couple of D and the team would have been a serious contender for a playoff spot this year .

Instead he need very little and it cost him his job .

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04-23-2013, 02:57 AM
  #467
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First off, the Marlies team that Burke inherited had a MUCH better season than the current Marlies team.

2nd... My point is... if you consider 5 nhl seasons (minus 2 months) to be "successful" for the highest paid nhl gm in the league with the most financial advantages, than what would you consider "average" for the highest paid nhl gm in the league with the most financial advantages?
1. I'll take this Marlies roster over that one, wouldn't you?

2. Again, we became a playoff team, the Marlies are Calder Finalists, and our farm is in significantly better shape. All within the term of his contract. If using our wealth was an advantage, great, that doesn't diminish that he accomplished it. You say any monkey could, I've seen too many monkeys fail to believe you.

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04-23-2013, 03:03 AM
  #468
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Maybe when you guys learn that there's more to an organization than how high the players were selected in the Entry Draft you'll have more fun watching this team.
Maybe when you learn the easiest way to add elite talent is through the draft you'll understand why most fans outside of Tor covet high picks .

I enjoy watching the team . The problem is some fans can't separate employees both past and present from the actual product on the ice .

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04-23-2013, 03:08 AM
  #469
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1. I'll take this Marlies roster over that one, wouldn't you?

2. Again, we became a playoff team, the Marlies are Calder Finalists, and our farm is in significantly better shape. All within the term of his contract. If using our wealth was an advantage, great, that doesn't diminish that he accomplished it. You say any monkey could, I've seen too many monkeys fail to believe you.
Burke inherited a team that recently selected a 5th and 13th overall pick. Since then he's drafted/traded 7th, 2nd, 9th, and 5th overall picks.
ANY monkey could improve his team (both ahl and nhl) over this amount of time with those assets.
Add in that he's the highest paid gm in the league, and has more financial advantages in the league than any other team, and it just gets embarrassing.

You say that you've seen too many other monkeys fail in that situation.
Well... I'm going to guess that you're talking about poor teams that can barely stay afloat merely spending to the cap basement.

Burke has so many financial advantages that it's just ridiculous.
If you're the general of an army that substantially outnumbers the enemy, should you be proud that on your 5th try, you finally defeated them? Should we say "Sure, he had an advantage, but that doesn't diminish the accomplishment".

I call ******** on that.
Burke's financial advantages DO diminish his accomplishment. Because given his financial advantages, it shouldn't have taken NEARLY so long.

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04-23-2013, 03:15 AM
  #470
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Burke inherited a team that recently selected a 5th and 13th overall pick. Since then he's drafted/traded 7th, 2nd, 9th, and 5th overall picks.
ANY monkey could improve his team (both ahl and nhl) over this amount of time with those assets.
Add in that he's the highest paid gm in the league, and has more financial advantages in the league than any other team, and it just gets embarrassing.

You say that you've seen too many other monkeys fail in that situation.
Well... I'm going to guess that you're talking about poor teams that can barely stay afloat merely spending to the cap basement.

Burke has so many financial advantages that it's just ridiculous.
If you're the general of an army that substantially outnumbers the enemy, should you be proud that on your 5th try, you finally defeated them? Should we say "Sure, he had an advantage, but that doesn't diminish the accomplishment".

I call ******** on that.
Burke's financial advantages DO diminish his accomplishment. Because given his financial advantages, it shouldn't have taken NEARLY so long.
You're not good with 5 years. Got it.

I am.

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04-23-2013, 03:20 AM
  #471
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You're not good with 5 years. Got it.

I am.
The problem is I don't think there was a number you wouldn't be good with .

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04-23-2013, 03:21 AM
  #472
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You're not good with 5 years. Got it.

I am.
I'm good with 5 years... if our young core looked as elite as Edmontons.
(I know that they aren't doing as good in the standings, while their elite players are 18, 19, 20, 21, etc... so no need to point it out).

I would also be ok with a 5 year rebuild if we were one of the poor teams in the league hurdled with financial disadvantages.

But the highest paid GM with the most financial advantages? 5 years to simply make the playoffs is unacceptable.
Your standards are too low and you should take some time for self reflection to evaluate them.

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04-23-2013, 03:23 AM
  #473
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Leafs became a playoff team faster (well... actually remains to be seen)
But the oilers will become cup contenders faster.
They have utterly elite young players that will grow into their primes together.

By the time the leafs young core hit their primes, their veteran elite players (phaneuf, lupul) will be well past their primes.

Edmonton just did a PROPER rebuild, and will reap the benefits later.
Even I agree... it's taking too long. But at least they'll be rewarded with an ELITE team for their patience. Not merely making the playoffs.
Their rebuild was more reactive than proactive. Three of four of their young assets are scoring wingers. One is potential franchise center that was rushed in the league and is suffering for it. Edmonton rebuild is one of the worst in the league, almost Columbus esque. Eberle was brought in properly and he played himself a big contract. Hall came in first season and is cashing in after ELC. They will pay their young core north to 15million after their ELCs(almost 20mil with Yakupov). Not a great way to build contender. They have no defense and not that great goaltending prospects. They have young ELITE assets, which are paid market value.

It's true that you can get great assets with picks, but not everytime it's three good centers(2 franchise) and franchise goalie like it was with Penguins. Even with those assets Shero had to do lot of trades to build a contender. Part of their core was playing with cheap contracts back then.

Drafting your young talent is one way. Burke took other road and build this team that way. Even though you get 13th, 5th, 7th, 2nd, 9th and 5th pick doesn't mean you get 6 good assets. Some of them might contribute now, some in future and some never. Phaneuf is 1 dman, Kessel is franchise scorer, Lupul is PPG winger, JVR is young PWF, Gardiner is young PMD and then we got good 2way dman prospect in Percy. Then our own drafted players Kadri and Rielly. Then there are Biggs, Liles, Colborne and Franson.

Give me more names beside Eberle, Hall, RNH, Yakupov and Schultz that Tambellini acquired during his tenure. In my opinion Burke made more of his assets than Tambellini made out of his and Tambellini had 3 1st overalls. Burke was proactive and Tambellini reactive.

This team isn't perfect and was sometimes very painful to watch. Still Burke brought in lot of talent without tanking and you can argue would we be in better situation if he had gutted this team. Drafted always BPA and rushed them in the league without any stop gaps. Burke was great dealer. Kaberle trade was an piece of art. Kaberle said he wanted to go to Boston and Burke still brought in Colborne, 1st and 2nd. Then traded that second for Liles and replaced Kaberle with him. Kaberle was no Iginla, but in similar situation he got more for him than CGY for Iginla.

I have no problem defending him. He made mistakes and that's why his now scouting for Anaheim. Still he made lots of good moves and rebuild/retooled our team.

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04-23-2013, 03:23 AM
  #474
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I'm good with 5 years... if our young core looked as elite as Edmontons.
(I know that they aren't doing as good in the standings, while their elite players are 18, 19, 20, 21, etc... so no need to point it out).

I would also be ok with a 5 year rebuild if we were one of the poor teams in the league hurdled with financial disadvantages.

But the highest paid GM with the most financial advantages? 5 years to simply make the playoffs is unacceptable.
Your standards are too low and you should take some time for self reflection to evaluate them.
How do you expect a proper rebuild of that magnitude in less then 5 years? Especially with zero assets and only so much cap money to spend? Maybe pre-lock out it was possible, but not today.

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04-23-2013, 03:24 AM
  #475
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The problem is I don't think there was a number you wouldn't be good with .
Well said.

I'd ask him "if you're good with 5 years, what number of years would you not be good with?"
but there's no point.
Nobody answers that question.
They just spin around it in an endless loop.

I don't blame them.
Answering that question would take them admitting just how low their expecations are/were. I think even they are embarrassed to show just how low their expectations are.

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