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Jets - General Rumour, Trade, Free Agent and Waiver Speculation (12-13 Part XII)

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Old
03-18-2013, 01:24 PM
  #326
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[QUOTE=Stej;61884767]I totally agree with the point you are making and I would not advocate just being a pure seller at the deadline. Trading away Hainsey, Clitsome, Antro and Wellwood and bringing nothing back would send a terrible message. My thought is that Chevy needs to gauge the market on these guys and if the return is good enough on any of them, he moves them and brings in someone else that fits in better long-term with the direction of the club. Sell high (and when there is a chance to sell) is all I'm sayin'. Again, this is all on the premise that these guys want to test free agency (because generally when a player says he wants to test free agency, he ain't coming back).

I actually think we are pretty close to alignment Stej, I assumed you wanted to dump our pending UFA's for draft picks. I would love to maximize asset value if we can swap but if we can't find any trading partners I would be really leery about doing the Johnny Oduya two step again when we are looking like we have real shot at the playoffs. 14 days away from the deadline so I guess we shall see.

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03-18-2013, 01:27 PM
  #327
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Agreed. One way to do that is to move some current assets that don't quite fit into the mix such as Postma, Burmi, excess picks, etc.
I don't think it is a matter of Burmi not fitting in, I think it is a matter of him not playing to his potential. With his skills Burmi could be a solid second line performer adding some much needed scoring punch. He already has the defensive end of the game figured out which makes him more than reliable on the third of fourth lines. Noel's greatest frustration is that his beautiful dangles and puck control don't need to nearly enough scoring opportunities. He wants him to simplify his game, open up a bit of room then find an open man in better scoring position. Noel doesn't want Burmi to be satisfied with what he is accomplishing on the ice and to complacent in a third line role because he knows there is potential for so much more.

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03-18-2013, 01:27 PM
  #328
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Wayyyyyy too much focus on Burmistrov's weight and "lack of size". He is one of the most solid guys on his skates on the entire roster not too mention he plays quite a bit more physical than some of our "big" guys.

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03-18-2013, 01:28 PM
  #329
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And Bogosian was billed as having no hockey IQ by Thrasher fans. I watched the 2010-2011 season and they weren't wrong. Bogosian was ****ing awful, anything that could go wrong would go wrong when Bogosian stepped on the ice. It was almost comical.

Also the size component is something I don't buy. Burmistrov is way too physical a player to throw that around as an actual reason.

Also how is a center (possibly the highest valued position in hockey) who already plays solid defensively, plays physically, and shows offensive upside and a puck control skill set not analogous to an athletic d-man? Witnessing what happened with Bogosian and being in the same offseason following the 2010-2011 season I would actually value the center higher. Especially given that he's proven at least capable of already being a 3rd line center at 21 in the NHL. Bogosian was barely capable of being anything on the blue line during that time.

In conclusion I think whatever asset we could parlay Burmistrov into now would look like a massive mistake 2-3 years down the road. Which is really the time frame we need to worry about. The only time those trades are made and don't look like mistakes are when the team wins the stanley cup (otherwise the Peverley for Stuart+Wheeler trade would look like robbery from Boston right now for instance) and sad to say, but I don't really see us as cup contenders this year.

We really have nothing to lose holding onto Burmistrov for another year or two. He's already an established 3rd line center IMO. At 23 if he doesn't improve one iota I don't think his trade stock is that far from where it is currently. It looks like we have little to gain by trading Burmistrov and a whole lot to lose.
Nicely said, Sweech.

As for trading Burmistrov, I would only do so if the net return was a good top 2 center or RW. So, by saying that, perhaps we could get a player who is on a poor team going nowhere, on contract, is still young'ish, more proven, but not in the long term plans of such a team. Maybe our trading partner values a young Burmistrov much in the way many here do. It's possible. We'll see though.

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03-18-2013, 01:31 PM
  #330
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Nicely said, Sweech.

As for trading Burmistrov, I would only do so if the net return was a good top 2 center or RW. So, by saying that, perhaps we could get a player who is on a poor team going nowhere, on contract, is still young'ish, more proven, but not in the long term plans of such a team. Maybe our trading partner values a young Burmistrov much in the way many here do. It's possible. We'll see though.
Exactly and I don't see many opportunities around the league for such a deal.

Maybe Paul Stastny...but that contract really worries me. Expensive + UFA soon.

Plus I don't really see why Colorado would make that trade.

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03-18-2013, 01:36 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Sweech View Post
And Bogosian was billed as having no hockey IQ by Thrasher fans. I watched the 2010-2011 season and they weren't wrong. Bogosian was ****ing awful, anything that could go wrong would go wrong when Bogosian stepped on the ice. It was almost comical.

Also the size component is something I don't buy. Burmistrov is way too physical a player to throw that around as an actual reason.

Also how is a center (possibly the highest valued position in hockey) who already plays solid defensively, plays physically, and shows offensive upside and a puck control skill set not analogous to an athletic d-man? Witnessing what happened with Bogosian and being in the same offseason following the 2010-2011 season I would actually value the center higher. Especially given that he's proven at least capable of already being a 3rd line center at 21 in the NHL. Bogosian was barely capable of being anything on the blue line during that time.

In conclusion I think whatever asset we could parlay Burmistrov into now would look like a massive mistake 2-3 years down the road. The only time those trades are made and don't look like mistakes are when the team wins the stanley cup (otherwise the Peverley for Stuart+Wheeler trade would look like robbery from Boston right now for instance) and sad to say, but I don't really see us as cup contenders this year.
My own views are diametrically opposed.

The Jets probably don't view his value as a center akin to the way do you, given that they intentionally went with huge players at that position in both the recent draft and at free agency as well. They've given him every opportunity to take the position here over the past season and one half... yet he keeps playing his way onto the wing. Not many 175 pound wingers in the league.

If they trade him and he winds up "getting it" elsewhere in a few year, then good for him. Those results would be achieved under entirely different circumstances and as such would not necessarily reflect poorly upon the Jets organization. He may just flourish in a deeper organization that as such is afforded the ability to be patient for example. All that should matter is that the Jets garner a return in trade that satisfies their own needs at the time, things such as depth, and top 6/9 scoring and physical/sizable forwards. Anything else is extraneous noise. If he does well elsewhere, great! If he does well here, great!

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03-18-2013, 01:38 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by Sweech View Post
And Bogosian was billed as having no hockey IQ by Thrasher fans. I watched the 2010-2011 season and they weren't wrong. Bogosian was ****ing awful, anything that could go wrong would go wrong when Bogosian stepped on the ice. It was almost comical. His nickname was "Oh No-sian".

Also the size component is something I don't buy. Burmistrov is way too physical a player to throw that around as an actual reason.

Also how is a center (possibly the highest valued position in hockey) who already plays solid defensively, plays physically, and shows offensive upside and a puck control skill set not analogous to an athletic d-man? Witnessing what happened with Bogosian and being in the same offseason following the 2010-2011 season I would actually value the center higher. Especially given that he's proven at least capable of already being a 3rd line center at 21 in the NHL. Bogosian was barely capable of being anything on the blue line during that time.

In conclusion I think whatever asset we could parlay Burmistrov into now would look like a massive mistake 2-3 years down the road. Which is really the time frame we need to worry about. The only time those trades are made and don't look like mistakes are when the team wins the stanley cup (otherwise the Peverley for Stuart+Wheeler trade would look like robbery from Boston right now for instance) and sad to say, but I don't really see us as cup contenders this year.

We really have nothing to lose holding onto Burmistrov for another year or two. He's already an established 3rd line center IMO. At 23 if he doesn't improve one iota I don't think his trade stock is that far from where it is currently. It looks like we have little to gain by trading Burmistrov and a whole lot to lose.
Totally agree sweech. I too see it as 175 games, not necessarily 175 NHL games. I give him another season at least. That being said, i would not be opposed to moving him as long the value is good, i just wouldn't sell him for the value of a 30 point defensive forward- thats all he is right now, but that ain't worth much, and theres potential for so much more.

though, i'd be ok with it as long as we were getting a similar piece/youth back. Not picks. not "depth" or anything, unless it was a piece like Simmonds when he was with LA( a player stuck on the third line that our GM is very certain could do more).

not saying thats exactly what i'd want but an analogous situation. i don't want to trade him for a 26+ yearold career third liner or equivelent player.

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03-18-2013, 01:41 PM
  #333
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Exactly and I don't see many opportunities around the league for such a deal.

Maybe Paul Stastny...but that contract really worries me. Expensive + UFA soon.

Plus I don't really see why Colorado would make that trade.
Yep. Could have maybe seen a swap for a player like Versteeg, who is proven and on contract for 3-4 more seasons. But he got injured for the remainder of the season.

Stastny I do like, could fit very well here, but like you say, he's a UFA in a years time so that's concerning.

I could see Buffalo trading a forward like Drew Stafford. Just not sure of Stafford as he seems very inconsistent. He had a good 20 goal, 30 assist season last year where his sh% was a bit low but at least not unrealistic. His consistency does concern me though.

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03-18-2013, 01:46 PM
  #334
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Yep. Could have maybe seen a swap for a player like Versteeg, who is proven and on contract for 3-4 more seasons. But he got injured for the remainder of the season.

Stastny I do like, could fit very well here, but like you say, he's a UFA in a years time so that's concerning.

I could see Buffalo trading a forward like Drew Stafford. Just not sure of Stafford as he seems very inconsistent. He had a good 20 goal, 30 assist season last year where his sh% was a bit low but at least not unrealistic. His consistency does concern me though.
I love the idea of getting Stafford. The tough part is I think Buffalo would be the one to add in that situation (if it was Stafford for Burmistrov) which really makes it awkward as they're giving the more "proven player" even if Stafford can be enigmatic at times.

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03-18-2013, 01:46 PM
  #335
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Nicely said, Sweech.

As for trading Burmistrov, I would only do so if the net return was a good top 2 center or RW. So, by saying that, perhaps we could get a player who is on a poor team going nowhere, on contract, is still young'ish, more proven, but not in the long term plans of such a team. Maybe our trading partner values a young Burmistrov much in the way many here do. It's possible. We'll see though.
I also don't understand the need to want an immediate apples/apples return.

He isn't really a top 2 center or wing right now, he may never be one, so it is perhaps a tad unrealistic to expect such a return. Sometimes making a change simply for the sake of a change proves beneficial.

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03-18-2013, 01:50 PM
  #336
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My own views are diametrically opposed.

The Jets probably don't view his value as a center akin to the way do you, given that they intentionally went with huge players at that position in both the recent draft and at free agency as well. They've given him every opportunity to take the position here over the past season and one half... yet he keeps playing his way onto the wing. Not many 175 pound wingers in the league.

If they trade him and he winds up "getting it" elsewhere in a few year, then good for him. Those results would be achieved under entirely different circumstances and as such would not necessarily reflect poorly upon the Jets organization. He may just flourish in a deeper organization that as such is afforded the ability to be patient for example. All that should matter is that the Jets garner a return in trade that satisfies their own needs at the time, things such as depth, and top 6/9 scoring and physical/sizable forwards. Anything else is extraneous noise. If he does well elsewhere, great! If he does well here, great!
He is listed at 180. There are 58 players that are 5 or less pounds heavier than him (which is nothing) and almost 75 that weigh less, including some guys on our team. Not to mention he just turned 21 in the fall.

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03-18-2013, 01:55 PM
  #337
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I also don't understand the need to want an immediate apples/apples return.

He isn't really a top 2 center or wing right now, he may never be one, so it is perhaps a tad unrealistic to expect such a return. Sometimes making a change simply for the sake of a change proves beneficial.
Because in my opinion it's trading him for a player who is more established and can help us and fulfill our team needs both now and in the coming years, as Chevy always alludes to. That is generally why a team will make a trade. These trades happen every single season, youth/potential/not as proven to a team for a more proven piece who perhaps doesn't fit the bill going forward. It all depends on team needs for each trading partner, forget about "apples/apples", it boils down to what each GM/team covets. Chevy has said or indicated he'd like to add a top 2 or 2nd line RW, so therefore trading Burmistrov for that piece becomes a potential possibility.

Perhaps we see Chevy trade Burmistrov for another young player in a similar stage. I am just throwing out ideas here as I see potentially possible.


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03-18-2013, 01:55 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
I also don't understand the need to want an immediate apples/apples return.

He isn't really a top 2 center or wing right now, he may never be one, so it is perhaps a tad unrealistic to expect such a return. Sometimes making a change simply for the sake of a change proves beneficial.
For the other team in this instance.

We have no need for improving the roster right now. Realistically we need pieces with upside that help us contend in a few years. Burmistrov is currently an NHL player at 21. That holds value, especially given his upside.

Really makes no sense to trade laterally when we're talking about a 21 year old.

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03-18-2013, 01:56 PM
  #339
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He is listed at 180. There are 58 players that are 5 or less pounds heavier than him (which is nothing) and almost 75 that weigh less, including some guys on our team. Not to mention he just turned 21 in the fall.
He also weighed in with the IceCaps this season at... 175 pounds.

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03-18-2013, 02:02 PM
  #340
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For the other team in this instance.

We have no need for improving the roster right now. Realistically we need pieces with upside that help us contend in a few years. Burmistrov is currently an NHL player at 21. That holds value, especially given his upside.

Really makes no sense to trade laterally when we're talking about a 21 year old.
It does make sense if the team viewed him as having no future here due where he sits on their own current internal depth chart for example, or due other circumstances.

Again, an apples/apples trade return per the board's views of his upside is probably not a realistic expectation. I actually hope if he is ever traded that it comes as a part of a package so the trade isn't hind-sighted forever. The fact of the matter is that any trade return needs to fill the organization's needs at that time, not our own.

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03-18-2013, 02:11 PM
  #341
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It does make sense if the team viewed him as having no future here due where he sits on their own current internal depth chart for example, or due other circumstances.

Again, an apples/apples trade return per the board's views of his upside is probably not a realistic expectation. I actually hope if he is ever traded that it comes as a part of a package so the trade isn't hind-sighted forever. The fact of the matter is that any trade return needs to fill the organization's needs at that time, not our own.
I agree. I think the only realistic expectation is he would be a part of some package.

I still think holding onto him for 1-2 more years is the smartest route. His trade value wouldn't decline much in those 2 years and we could possibly stand to benefit greater from it.

Acquiring a new player or players brings about the same risks of whether or not they fit.

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03-18-2013, 02:15 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Sweech View Post
And Bogosian was billed as having no hockey IQ by Thrasher fans. I watched the 2010-2011 season and they weren't wrong. Bogosian was ****ing awful, anything that could go wrong would go wrong when Bogosian stepped on the ice. It was almost comical. His nickname was "Oh No-sian".

Also the size component is something I don't buy. Burmistrov is way too physical a player to throw that around as an actual reason.

Also how is a center (possibly the highest valued position in hockey) who already plays solid defensively, plays physically, and shows offensive upside and a puck control skill set not analogous to an athletic d-man? Witnessing what happened with Bogosian and being in the same offseason following the 2010-2011 season I would actually value the center higher. Especially given that he's proven at least capable of already being a 3rd line center at 21 in the NHL. Bogosian was barely capable of being anything on the blue line during that time.

In conclusion I think whatever asset we could parlay Burmistrov into now would look like a massive mistake 2-3 years down the road. Which is really the time frame we need to worry about. The only time those trades are made and don't look like mistakes are when the team wins the stanley cup (otherwise the Peverley for Stuart+Wheeler trade would look like robbery from Boston right now for instance) and sad to say, but I don't really see us as cup contenders this year.

We really have nothing to lose holding onto Burmistrov for another year or two. He's already an established 3rd line center IMO. At 23 if he doesn't improve one iota I don't think his trade stock is that far from where it is currently. It looks like we have little to gain by trading Burmistrov and a whole lot to lose.
Mhmm...

The thing is he's still young and you have to treat him like that.

At 21 he is still far under the age where majority of players (not just top6 players) maximize their offensive potential. Usually it ends up being between 24-26ish and then plateaus for a few years. While there are always exceptions to the rule, it is unwise to bank on it, especially when the player has improved consistently at even strength scoring per minute at rates similar to players like O`Reilly, the Sedins (prior to them getting the crazy OZS they have now) and others... and this seems to be irregardless of what year they enter the NHL.

One of the main reasons why players offensively develop in age and not experience pattern is because a lot of it is physical development. Again, just like the offensive output there is the possibility it could stagnant, but, again just like the offensive output, it would be unwise to place any bets on it, as Burmistrov has developed in that area (26 lbs heavier than his combine weight, which is now 180lbs according to NHL Jets, not 175) and is uncommon for peoples weight to freeze forever.

I think Burmistrov size is a tad over exaggerated here. (According to eliteprospects.com) He measure at 5cm shorter and 18lbs lighter than team average of one of the biggest and heaviest teams in the league.

EDIT:
None of this means he gets a free ride or is untouchable... but it is things you have to bring into perspective to create an appropriate opinion.


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03-18-2013, 02:26 PM
  #343
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One name that crossed my mind was Dustin Penner. He is eternally lazy on many a night, but he has always stepped up to the plate in the post-season when it counts the most.

Skates well when he wants to, crashes the net and screens well, has the shot to finish.

If LA is looking to add someone at the deadline and wanted to shed salary we could probably get him cheap.

If the price was too high of abandon ship quickly, but I figured he'd have as good a chance to resign as anybody being from Winkler.

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03-18-2013, 02:29 PM
  #344
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Right, because one game, their third played in four nights, for a team on the heels of a 10-3-1 run (IIRC) defines a third line/4th line being destroyed by the opposition. We should instead break that down to the four games that Burmistrov has missed to be fair and the 3-1 results.

[sarcasm] Obviously a 175 pound 3rd/4th line forward forward was the clear difference between winning and losing today. [/sarcasm]
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I was responding to your comment about Burmistrov. This discussion is not about the third or fourth line but rather is about Burmistrov specifically, yet for some reason on this board, on twitter, etc, some wish to frame any Burmistrov discussion as really somehow being conversely about poor third or fourth line performance of late without him in the lineup, as if the intent is to deflect the discussion away from that the team is clearly currently unhappy with Burmistrov himself.

This team has lacked depth since day one this season. They they've a weak bottom six group is nothing new nor does it deflect from Burmistrov's own erratic play. On a day when they could have obviously used a set of fresh legs in the lineup they still chose to sit him; that says something right there about his current value in the eyes of the team.

They may or may not choose to trade him; he might stay and may not improve whatever it is they find lacking and then they are left with a 175 pound enigma. They certainly could also trade him and find that over the long haul he plays better on another NHL team and perhaps might regret that result, at least in the eyes of some. He could also perhaps bolt to the KHL at the end of the season and then they are left with nothing but his RFA rights.

I'm fairly ambivalent about the guy but feel there are likely better options out there and as such am now leaning toward they should package him with other pieces and beef up the lacking depth; better that than to risk losing him in exchange for nothing at all aside from his RFA rights.
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They sat a top 6/9 player on a day when when they clearly could have used a fresh one. They are reportedly also seeking top 6/9 help in the trade market according to both Dreger and to Chevy himself as per his interview on 1290 on Friday. Those two factors could arguably be linked, or perhaps not.

They specifically however addressed a team want for size down the middle at both the draft and in free agency (Jokinen). That probably speaks to their views regarding Burmistrov in that position. Yet at wing there are also likely preferable options to rolling out a 175 pound winger in a league comprised mainly of behemoth opposition wingers. Wouldn't surprise me if he is eventually moved elsewhere.
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I'm happy with the results of the team as it is currently constructed. I also prefer the heavy game they generally played without Burmistrov in the lineup aside from their clearly exhausted/tired performance of yesterday.

Teams are comprised of different sorts of players. Burmistrov probably has top 6 skills but can't find his niche in that role here despite having already played 175 NHL games. I'd rather see guys that play a heavier role in the bottom six, guys that bring a consistent and physical game every shift. One can seek upgrades over some of the current bottom six and still feel that Burmistrov doesn't fit within that vision. Those are not mutually exclusive points.
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The difference being that one player offered huge physical stud D potential, while the other is an undersized but skilled forward. Not really an analogous comparison there. Burmistrov's options are more limited as he doesn't offer the size component. I'm not saying Burmistrov won't prove a fantastic player going forward, simply that he perhaps isn't fitting in here yet and they could perhaps consider parlaying that into a different asset for the franchise - given the lack of organizational depth.
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My own views are diametrically opposed.

The Jets probably don't view his value as a center akin to the way do you, given that they intentionally went with huge players at that position in both the recent draft and at free agency as well. They've given him every opportunity to take the position here over the past season and one half... yet he keeps playing his way onto the wing. Not many 175 pound wingers in the league.

If they trade him and he winds up "getting it" elsewhere in a few year, then good for him. Those results would be achieved under entirely different circumstances and as such would not necessarily reflect poorly upon the Jets organization. He may just flourish in a deeper organization that as such is afforded the ability to be patient for example. All that should matter is that the Jets garner a return in trade that satisfies their own needs at the time, things such as depth, and top 6/9 scoring and physical/sizable forwards. Anything else is extraneous noise. If he does well elsewhere, great! If he does well here, great!
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He also weighed in with the IceCaps this season at... 175 pounds.
Gump you're going to give the girl a complex if you keep talking about her weight

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03-18-2013, 02:32 PM
  #345
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175 Pounds!!!

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03-18-2013, 02:34 PM
  #346
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175 Pounds!!!

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03-18-2013, 02:35 PM
  #347
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175 pounds!!!
180*

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03-18-2013, 02:39 PM
  #348
allan5oh
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Im not worried about burmis weight, he plays bigger than guys like wellwood and antropov.

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Old
03-18-2013, 02:39 PM
  #349
veganhunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
He also weighed in with the IceCaps this season at... 175 pounds.
Fair enough, my point still stands though. I would guess 99% of the numbers on NHL.com are fudged to make guys appear heavier and taller that doesn't make him any smaller in the grand scheme of things because almost everyone gets pushed back a couple pounds and inches.

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03-18-2013, 02:42 PM
  #350
garret9
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Originally Posted by veganhunter View Post
Fair enough, my point still stands though. I would guess 99% of the numbers on NHL.com are fudged to make guys appear heavier and taller that doesn't make him any smaller in the grand scheme of things because almost everyone gets pushed back a couple pounds and inches.
Exactly can't push back one without pushing the rest.
Plus add in the fact that he's actually been putting on weight since drafted decently I have no concerns there.
My only concerns are that he needs to start playing the system to improve his game. Either it will happen or it won't.

Besides, you can be undersized and still be better than others. It is only one variable of many that makes a player work. Jets' aren't afraid to have someone undersized if the player makes them better. Case in point, Tobias Enstrom. Chevy loves Enstrom and I bet his dimensions are more over exaggerated than any player on our team.
I've heard people say Burmistrov looks bit taller in person than he does on the ice. Probably looks small because we have the second tallest team in the NHL (I think, I know it was in the top 3).

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