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Will a Team Score 375+ Goals in a Season Again?

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Old
03-13-2013, 12:30 AM
  #26
Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
It's very ironic that the size of the goalie pads increased so dramatically and any mention of increasing the size of the nets (to get back to some kind of consistent proportion or ratio of net/goalie coverage) is treated by almost everyone as a joke or gimmick.
Because it is simply common sense to leave the nets alone. The nets aren't the problem. The nets have been that size for 100 years. The size of the pads are the problem. That changed, the nets didn't. There is your problem/solution.

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03-13-2013, 03:05 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Mark my words..
NHL sooner or later makes rinks bigger. At least a little bit. It will help creativity a lot, but it will be just side effect of fight against concussions. Don't want to go to neverending discussions why NHL will never ever do it. I rather firlmy believe: yes, it will. It's my firm opinion.
And honestly it's better idea than enlarging the nets.

Then maybe we will see 376 goals
That isnt a solution. For example, lets look to KHL. How many players in top 10 are above point per game?

3!

And one of them is Malkin.

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03-13-2013, 08:24 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Because it is simply common sense to leave the nets alone. The nets aren't the problem. The nets have been that size for 100 years. The size of the pads are the problem. That changed, the nets didn't. There is your problem/solution.
I agree but the NHL has known about the equipment problem for a while and still not much has been done.

Something about "safety".

Look hockey only had forward passing and no red line and that is more drastic than a small change in the size of the net don't you think?

The point is that the landscape is vastly different and much harder to score goals today.

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03-13-2013, 08:31 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
The facts do not support your position.

2005 NHL Entry draft produced Sidney Crosby and saw a total of 230 drafted players including players from all the areas and countries you list:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/draf...005_entry.html

Of the draftees taken after #150, 21 made the NHL within 8 seasons of being drafted. From the 21 only 6 have more than 10 NHL goals as of today. Most prolific being Patric Hornqvist and Sergei Kostitsyn. Rather obvious that the other 15 never averaged 10 goals per NHL season.

1981 NHL Entry Draft - Dale Hawerchuk, saw a total of 211 drafted players with minor representation from outside Canada:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/draf...981_entry.html

Of the draftees taken after #150, 22 made the NHL from a pool that was 19 players smaller into a league that was 9 teams smaller. Of the 22, 9 scored more than 10 NHL goals. Most prolific being Gaetan Duchesne - known defensive specialist and Petri Skriko, known defensive liability.

Regardless of the country or region of origin of the modern player, the depth talent and skills are not present in the NHL. Some choose to play elsewhere, some are held back by inadequate offensive coaching, while a significant number, upwards of 5 per team, are simply not good enough.
Why are we looking at picks after 150?

Wouldn't the top skilled guys be going in the 1st round most likely?

You really haven't showed anything here.

Look at the makeup and composition of all NHL players or players over 40 games in any season in the 80's compared to post 95 and you might start to understand the difference.

Throw in goalies and it's a whole other matter.

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03-13-2013, 08:35 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
I think it depends on the era and what parts of the game are being emphasized in that era...of hockey that is. You cannot compare soccer to hockey. Canada Cups have not been low scoring overall despite the highest concentration of talent on ice outside of the Olympics since 1998. The 87 CC final, arguably the most exciting in CC history, were all 6-5 games. And the 72 Summit series was not low scoring.
Your 2 examples also took place in pretty high scoring eras.

the soccer analogy was a pretty good one I thought, better defenders, less mistakes for the opposition to capitalize and score.

Systems and goalies are making it much harder to score on most every level from top Jr and up, scoring levels for all leagues has been trending downwards from the 80's plain and simple.

I go to a lot of WHL games, no lack of talent in that league I can assure you.

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03-13-2013, 09:34 AM
  #31
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Depth Players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Why are we looking at picks after 150?

Wouldn't the top skilled guys be going in the 1st round most likely?

You really haven't showed anything here.

Look at the makeup and composition of all NHL players or players over 40 games in any season in the 80's compared to post 95 and you might start to understand the difference.

Throw in goalies and it's a whole other matter.
Depth is the issue and is defined by the players chosen deep in the draft after the 150th pick.

Total the number of QMJHL/OHA/WHA/USHL plus NCAA plus High School/Prep Schools plus European Club teams that provide NHL Draft Entry eligible players and you have a number greater than 150.

If you have depth at the feeder level you will have depth at the NHL level since quality players are developed by playing against other quality players at the pre NHL level.Look at the number of major junior teams or teams from the leagues above that do not have players drafted during a specific draft.

Regardless of the provenance of the players today you do not have talent or quality once you go beyond the top 15 or 16 on an NHL roster. Just filler or sideshow players.

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03-13-2013, 09:50 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Enlarge the nets, might as well just rip up the Record Books altogether, and I for one would be done with hockey for good. Your second suggestion as well, that the goalies turn back the clock by about 25yrs in terms of equipment .
Just wanted to confirm that I don't want changes like enlarging the net, but that outside of something radical like that, I don't see how the game can generate the type of action where a team is able to top 375 goals occasionally. But I'm not in favor of enlarging the net.

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03-13-2013, 09:55 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Most of us here quite enjoy a 1-1 game, great defensive displays & so on. Sure we miss the days of 9-5 or 7-3 scores, .
Also want to clarify that I prefer the 1-1 games to the free-wheeling offense of the 80's. I pretty much tuned out hockey that decade, for several reasons - (a) losing my team to root for, (b) sick of the Islanders' success and (c) high scoring.

My post is not a pining for the "good old days" of 80's hockey, just wondering if it's at all possible that things would swing back in that direction.

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03-13-2013, 05:01 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Your 2 examples also took place in pretty high scoring eras.

the soccer analogy was a pretty good one I thought, better defenders, less mistakes for the opposition to capitalize and score.

Systems and goalies are making it much harder to score on most every level from top Jr and up, scoring levels for all leagues has been trending downwards from the 80's plain and simple.

I go to a lot of WHL games, no lack of talent in that league I can assure you.
I cited more than two examples. 72 Summit Series, CC's of 76, 81, 84, 87, 91 and World Cup of 96. Even the Olympics of 98 had its high scoring games. I agree that systems and goalies have made it more difficult to score. However, not when there is a high concentration of offensive talent on the ice. This is what we had in the 80's with only 21 teams. And in today's NHL with so many teams, there is just not enough elite offensive talent to go around.

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03-13-2013, 05:19 PM
  #35
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Todays problems in the NHL isn't about scoring. Hockey has only been high scoring twice, once when the forward pass rule was made and the second time during the eighties for various reasons. The problem with todays NHL (or hockey in general) is

A) Lack of creativity and thinking on your own. Players are told what to do and do it.

B) Lack of emotion. How often do we see true emotion in todays hockey? I'm not just talking about brawls and fights but positive ones. As soon as anyone celebrates too much (sometimes they can go overboard) they get shot down by an old man on TV.

C) Gear. Make the padding soft instead of the adamantium hard plastic they use now.

D) Back in the day, the people who pioneered hockey were players and people who cared for the sport. Today its engineered by suits who has never played nor been involved with hockey in their whole life.

E) Refs. They get worse and worse. The fact that a bone head like Dave Jackson is still allowed to officiate is proof enough.

F) Embellishment and diving. They help take the physical and emotion out of the game.

G) The anti-violence propaganda that gets stuffed down our throats. Hockey comes with a risk. I'm all for taking pure head shot out of the game but sometimes the victim has to keep his head up or in some cases recently, not bait a penalty.

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03-13-2013, 06:19 PM
  #36
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I think it is possible. When Lemieux came back in '01, Lemieux-Jagr over 82 games might have been able to do it if transplanted to todays environment...

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03-13-2013, 07:44 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Why are we looking at picks after 150?

Wouldn't the top skilled guys be going in the 1st round most likely?

You really haven't showed anything here.

Look at the makeup and composition of all NHL players or players over 40 games in any season in the 80's compared to post 95 and you might start to understand the difference.

Throw in goalies and it's a whole other matter.
saw this thread and thought I would throw in the goalies

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1371823

Compare to 1980's NHL

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03-13-2013, 07:47 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
saw this thread and thought I would throw in the goalies

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1371823

Compare to 1980's NHL
Nothing that shrinking the pads back down won't cure.

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03-13-2013, 07:55 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
I cited more than two examples. 72 Summit Series, CC's of 76, 81, 84, 87, 91 and World Cup of 96. Even the Olympics of 98 had its high scoring games. I agree that systems and goalies have made it more difficult to score. However, not when there is a high concentration of offensive talent on the ice. This is what we had in the 80's with only 21 teams. And in today's NHL with so many teams, there is just not enough elite offensive talent to go around.
I ran the numbers in another thread and the actual total numbers of Canadian players playing in more than 40 games in the season was like 29 more, spread over the 9 teams.

The rest of the increase in players came from non traditional, ie non Canadian sources.

I didn't even account for the increase of players from BC and the Maritime s.

In 85 there were 298 Canadian players who played more than 40 games in the NHL.

298/21=14 Canadians per team


http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1371823

In 2006 there were 303 Canadians on 9 more teams.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...sc=&offset=300

303/30 = 10 Canadians per team

If we look at the top 200 in scoring, there are more than enough non Canadians to make up for the 4 less Canadians per team and quite easily as close to 50% of the top 20 in G,A,P each post lockout year are non Canadian players.


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 03-13-2013 at 08:02 PM.
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03-13-2013, 08:05 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Nothing that shrinking the pads back down won't cure.
It would be interesting to see which goalies don't do as well for sure.

In a perfect world goalie pads would have remained the same size but we all know that didn't happen.

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03-13-2013, 08:07 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
It would be interesting to see which goalies don't do as well for sure.

In a perfect world goalie pads would have remained the same size but we all know that didn't happen.
Watch what happens when they get rid of the risers that block the 5 hole.

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03-13-2013, 08:26 PM
  #42
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It could happen but you would need the right GM, right coach and right players.
It would most likely be ‘10 Chicago like situation where said team would be able to stay together for a couple seasons at most before the Cap rips ‘em apart.

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03-13-2013, 09:12 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
saw this thread and thought I would throw in the goalies

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1371823

Compare to 1980's NHL
I don't know how he sorted those names, but due to availability of play index stats, I used <sigh> point share totals from 1980-89.

Canada
Rk Player GP W L T/O SV% GAA SO
1 Mike Liut 571 252 232 68 0.881 3.53 20
2 Pete Peeters 434 235 133 44 0.880 3.06 19
3 Greg Millen 514 179 245 80 0.876 3.91 14
4 Billy Smith* 381 182 131 45 0.882 3.34 11
5 Grant Fuhr* 389 211 106 48 0.882 3.70 7

Greg Millen's only there because of my crappy methodology. Patrick Roy, Tony Esposito, Ron Hextall, Andy Moog, Mike Vernon, Bill Ranford, Kirk McLean, Sean Burke, Kelly Hrudey, Bob Sauve, Reggie Lemelin, and Bob Froese are among those who could have made it instead if they had more GP.

USA
Rk Player GP W L T/O SV% GAA SO
1 Tom Barrasso 310 142 117 35 0.885 3.38 13
2 John Vanbiesbrouck 269 119 109 24 0.884 3.60 6
3 Bob Mason 123 49 52 15 0.881 3.73 1
4 Jon Casey 97 31 35 17 0.893 3.39 1
5 Bob Janecyk 110 43 47 13 0.867 4.15 2

The top two are legitimately good goalies. Casey was for a time. Mason was a journeyman who looked good in Washington and nowhere else. Janecyk was a journeyman.

Sweden
Rk Player GP W L T/O SV% GAA SO
1 Pelle Lindbergh 157 87 49 15 0.886 3.30 7
2 Hardy Astrom 79 15 42 12 3.76 0
3 Goran Hogosta 21 5 12 3 4.15 1

Presumably these guys were the best Sweden had to offer, as all played for their Canada Cup teams. Lindbergh was a Vezina-winner. The other two were marginal.

Finland
Rk Player GP W L T/O SV% GAA SO
1 Kari Takko 108 29 53 14 0.884 3.80 1
2 Markus Mattsson 92 21 46 14 0.851 4.11 6
3 Hannu Kamppuri 13 1 10 1 0.846 5.02 0
4 Jarmo Myllys 6 1 4 0 0.841 5.55 0
5 Jari Kaarela 5 2 2 0 6.00 0

Takko, Mattsson and Myllys were all Canada Cup goalies for Team Finland. Kamppuri played at World Championships. Kaarela never did but someone tried him out with little success in the NHL.

Czechoslovakia
Rk Player GP W L T/O SV% GAA SO
1 Jiri Crha 69 28 27 11 3.97 0

A Canada Cup goalie who was given a chance by the Leafs, but never seen again after posting a 6.77 playoff GAA in 186 minutes. Dominik Hasek was drafted and came over later, but he wasn't at the calibre we think of until 1993-94 anyways.

The USSR had no one play before 1989. They had great players, but after Tretiak, apparently had a goalie drought. 1987 Canada Cup and 1988 Olympic goalie Sergei Mylnikov went to the Nordiques in 1989 and posted a 1-7-2 record with an .858 save %.




So other countries did send their best goalies to the NHL in the 1980s. Aside from Lindbergh and Takko, everyone else didn't pan out. It's not that NHL teams weren't willing to go to the well because it was too far away. It's because the well didn't give them the results they wanted. Why go to a country's 4th best goalie if #2 is replacement level?

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03-13-2013, 09:13 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I ran the numbers in another thread and the actual total numbers of Canadian players playing in more than 40 games in the season was like 29 more, spread over the 9 teams.

The rest of the increase in players came from non traditional, ie non Canadian sources.

I didn't even account for the increase of players from BC and the Maritime s.

In 85 there were 298 Canadian players who played more than 40 games in the NHL.

298/21=14 Canadians per team


http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1371823

In 2006 there were 303 Canadians on 9 more teams.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...sc=&offset=300

303/30 = 10 Canadians per team

If we look at the top 200 in scoring, there are more than enough non Canadians to make up for the 4 less Canadians per team and quite easily as close to 50% of the top 20 in G,A,P each post lockout year are non Canadian players.
Ok fair enough. But for me this is not about how many Canadians, Russians, Swedes or anyone else is in the NHL. It is about the concentration of elite talent in the NHL. Despite more countries playing the sport and contributing to the NHL, it doesn't mean that the NHL is better. Because I believe they are all being trained in the same systematically structured way. Either that or, as you and Killion pointed out I believe, the talent is there and is just being harnessed. I don't know for sure. All I know is I would like to see less robots skating 100 mph and see more creativity. Remember when Lemieux would skate into the offensive zone at about 3 mph and make a brilliant play? I miss that and its ok if you don't. It may be a matter of preference.

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03-13-2013, 09:29 PM
  #45
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1987-88 Calgary Flames

Let's look at a team that actually scored more than 375 goals, the 1987-88 Calgary Flames scored 397 doals:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/CGY/1988.html

Team featured players from Canada including non traditional hockey provinces - Nova Scotia, the USA and Europe. The top two scorers were Hakan Loob and Mike Bullard with 106 and 103 points respectively. The team had great depth at the all five skater positions.

The 2012-13 team most likely to have a similar offensive season would be the Pittsburgh Penguins. They have two great offensive players, Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin. The team has scored 100 goals in 27 games, projecting to app. 304 over an 82 game season. Top two scorers Sidney Crosby and Chris Kunitz project to 135-140 and 110-115 points respectively so their contribution would be greater than Loob and Bullard:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/PIT/2013.html

Furthermore Sidney Crosby just ended an 8 game segment where he scored 5G and 15A, projecting to a Gretzky like 200-205 point season. The team features, Canadian, USA and European players including those from non traditional hockey areas.

The 2012-13 Pittsburgh Penguins play against skaters and goalies from various areas of the hockey playing world. Like every team they face Michelin Men goalies, the same referees, the same rules.

Two key points.

Even if Sidney Crosby sustained a Wayne Gretzky like pace of 200 points, his contribution alone would allow the Penguins to approach/challenge 375 goals for without guarantee of surpassing the treshold.

The biggest lag on the teams ability to score 375 goals is the lack of talented depth players. The filler players regardless of provenance do not have the talent to contribute the required goal per game required.

The elite offensive talent is in the league. Crosby and others have shown they can generate offensive production approaching Gretzky and Lemieux levels. The elite players can score at a high rate on inflatable goalies while playing under loosely enforced rules. The depth players today cannot match the offensive numbers of the depth players from previous generations..

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03-13-2013, 10:11 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
Ok fair enough. But for me this is not about how many Canadians, Russians, Swedes or anyone else is in the NHL. It is about the concentration of elite talent in the NHL. Despite more countries playing the sport and contributing to the NHL, it doesn't mean that the NHL is better. Because I believe they are all being trained in the same systematically structured way. Either that or, as you and Killion pointed out I believe, the talent is there and is just being harnessed. I don't know for sure. All I know is I would like to see less robots skating 100 mph and see more creativity. Remember when Lemieux would skate into the offensive zone at about 3 mph and make a brilliant play? I miss that and its ok if you don't. It may be a matter of preference.
Hey I miss the way Mario would do that too, but part of it wasn't just his talent but also the lack of talent, especially in being able to prevent goals for much of his career as well.

My bottom line is there is less time and space to do anything creative in today's NHL, we see flashes of it when mistakes happen, which are alot less common than when a guy like Dana Murzyn was a legit top 4 defender in the NHL.

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03-13-2013, 10:48 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Let's look at a team that actually scored more than 375 goals, the 1987-88 Calgary Flames scored 397 doals:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/CGY/1988.html

Team featured players from Canada including non traditional hockey provinces - Nova Scotia, the USA and Europe. The top two scorers were Hakan Loob and Mike Bullard with 106 and 103 points respectively. The team had great depth at the all five skater positions.

The 2012-13 team most likely to have a similar offensive season would be the Pittsburgh Penguins. They have two great offensive players, Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin. The team has scored 100 goals in 27 games, projecting to app. 304 over an 82 game season. Top two scorers Sidney Crosby and Chris Kunitz project to 135-140 and 110-115 points respectively so their contribution would be greater than Loob and Bullard:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/PIT/2013.html

Furthermore Sidney Crosby just ended an 8 game segment where he scored 5G and 15A, projecting to a Gretzky like 200-205 point season. The team features, Canadian, USA and European players including those from non traditional hockey areas.

The 2012-13 Pittsburgh Penguins play against skaters and goalies from various areas of the hockey playing world. Like every team they face Michelin Men goalies, the same referees, the same rules.

Two key points.

Even if Sidney Crosby sustained a Wayne Gretzky like pace of 200 points, his contribution alone would allow the Penguins to approach/challenge 375 goals for without guarantee of surpassing the treshold.

The biggest lag on the teams ability to score 375 goals is the lack of talented depth players. The filler players regardless of provenance do not have the talent to contribute the required goal per game required.

The elite offensive talent is in the league. Crosby and others have shown they can generate offensive production approaching Gretzky and Lemieux levels. The elite players can score at a high rate on inflatable goalies while playing under loosely enforced rules. The depth players today cannot match the offensive numbers of the depth players from previous generations..
For the Calgary example the Dmen of that team scored 70 goals on their own, including a young Dana Murzyn who had 6 in 41 games.

they ahd 12 players with double digit goals so the obvious answer without looking deeply into it, is that they had more scoring depth.

It's equally possible that it was also much easier to score in 88 than 13 which there is a ton of evidence for at all levels of hockey, NHL, AHL and all 3 major junior leagues.

It's not as simple as saying that one team scored more goals therefore they had more talent, as that assumes that other factors haven't changed and we know there have been significant changes to the NHL from 88-today.

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03-13-2013, 11:08 PM
  #48
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Because it is simply common sense to leave the nets alone. The nets aren't the problem. The nets have been that size for 100 years. The size of the pads are the problem. That changed, the nets didn't. There is your problem/solution.
I would tend to agree with this.

I mean, take an inch off either side of the pad and you have an extra 4 inches of space for the shooter to look at. Don't tell me that doesn't make the goalies any less safe. That part of the pad isn't even on their leg so what is it protecting other than the goalie's stats?

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Watch what happens when they get rid of the risers that block the 5 hole.
Are they actually doing this in the near future?

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03-13-2013, 11:18 PM
  #49
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Are they actually doing this in the near future?
Apparently the GMs and the competition committee are having discussions over possibly reducing goalie pad size. We'll see.

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03-14-2013, 12:52 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Apparently the GMs and the competition committee are having discussions over possibly reducing goalie pad size. We'll see.
It is going to be a game of chicken. No GM wants to look at his goalie and tell him that he voted to make the goalie's job harder.

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