What does Malkin have to do from here to move ahead of Beliveau all-time?
Two of the best big, graceful centermen in the game's history. Le Gros Bill is in the conversation (in another thread) for fifth best player of all-time, but what would Malkin have to do here on out to move ahead of Beliveau? Could it happen?
And note: if your contribution is going to be your stunning insight into how today's players are vastly superior in conditioning/ability/level of competition. . . please, do us all a favour, and don't bother.
Two of the best big, graceful centermen in the game's history. Le Gros Bill is in the conversation (in another thread) for fifth best player of all-time, but what would Malkin have to do here on out to move ahead of Beliveau? Could it happen?
And note: if your contribution is going to be your stunning insight into how today's players are vastly superior in conditioning/ability/level of competition. . . please, do us all a favour, and don't bother.
As long as the Pens are Sids team, Malkin has very little chance of passing Jean, no matter what he does.
About 6 more hundred point pace seasons would be what it would take for me to start asking (start asking, not answer) that question, and I'm a Pens fan.
I'd say X more cups (not going to look up JB's hardware just now), but, realistically, the number of cups Malkin has in his future career, if any, from here on out, is going to be perceived to be dictated by Crosby's play more than Malkin's unless something changes radically.
It would probably be better to look at him in comparison to a guy like Sundin at this particular point in his career, instead of shooting as high as Beliveau.
As long as the Pens are Sids team, Malkin has very little chance of passing Jean, no matter what he does.
I'm not quite clear on what you mean here; are you saying that because Malkin won't get the opportunities he needs to succeed with Crosby around, he won't exceed Beliveau; or are you saying that he simply wouldn't be able to overcome the perception of Jean Beliveau as a leader and franchise centerpiece?
About 6 more hundred point pace seasons would be what it would take for me to start asking (start asking, not answer) that question, and I'm a Pens fan.
I'd say X more cups (not going to look up JB's hardware just now), but, realistically, the number of cups Malkin has in his future career, if any, from here on out, is going to be perceived to be dictated by Crosby's play more than Malkin's unless something changes radically.
It would probably be better to look at him in comparison to a guy like Sundin at this particular point in his career, instead of shooting as high as Beliveau.
Hey, just to be clear: I'm not saying that Malkin is anywhere close to Beliveau at this point. . . I just think the projection of what he would have to do makes for an interesting conversation.
In particular, its kind of interesting to note that Malkin already has two Art Ross's to Beliveau's one. . . I always have to go back and remind myself that Jean only has the one scoring title. Always seems wrong.
. . . And I'd also suggest that Malkin is well past Sundin already. Malkin was a Calder, a Conn Smythe, two Harts, and two Art Ross's. Sundin was never even in the conversation for as much as a single piece of hardware.
Last edited by DisgruntledGoat: 03-11-2013 at 09:57 PM.
I don't know if Malkin-Beliveau is a good comparison. I don't see Malkin enough to comment on his defensive game but the consensus on Beliveau was that he was the whole package. So is that achievable for Malkin? I'm thinking Mikita or Espo at this point in his career. However, Malkin is as responsible for the Pens winning as Crosby is, even if it is Crosby's team. The Pens record is far better with Crosby out than with Malkin out. However, that may be because of opportunity. And I don't think we should get into cup counting. They both played in much different eras so it would be unfair to say Malkin has to win 10 cups in order to be on the same plain as Beliveau.
Two of the best big, graceful centermen in the game's history. Le Gros Bill is in the conversation (in another thread) for fifth best player of all-time, but what would Malkin have to do here on out to move ahead of Beliveau? Could it happen?
And note: if your contribution is going to be your stunning insight into how today's players are vastly superior in conditioning/ability/level of competition. . . please, do us all a favour, and don't bother.
Evgeni Malkin would have to improve his faceoff and defensive skills to a level where is viable in the last minute protecting a one goal lead.He would have tp mature to an on ice leadership level where he could generate production not only from solid or great wingers but also rookies and journeymen players like Beliveau did.Then there are the various leadership qualities that Beliveau had that few others did.
Point about Beliveau and Art Ross Trophies. Beliveau shared playing time with the likes of Henri Richard, Ralph Backstrom, Phil Goyette, Jacques Lemaire. This reduced his TOI which impacts scoring. Helps the team come playoff time.
And that's before getting into his stellar playoff record - 176 points in 162 playoff games is ridiculous for a player who played the majority of his career before expansion.
And that's before getting into his stellar playoff record - 176 points in 162 playoff games is ridiculous for a player who played the majority of his career before expansion.
This 10 elite season in the nhl and 4-5 other great playoff (Malkin already have 3 elite season and one very elite playoff run).
After that if he do not do much more offensively than Beliveau he will need to up is intangible and defensive hockey.
I'm not quite clear on what you mean here; are you saying that because Malkin won't get the opportunities he needs to succeed with Crosby around, he won't exceed Beliveau; or are you saying that he simply wouldn't be able to overcome the perception of Jean Beliveau as a leader and franchise centerpiece?
I think what he's saying is that as long as Crosby is healthy he'll always be ahead of Malkin. Crosby has a much better chance of moving into 5th than Malkin does.
Malkin
3x 1st AS, 1 Hart, 1 Pearson, 1 Smythe, 2 Art Ross
Beliveau had arguably 8 seasons of being a top 5 forward. He also had 12 seasons of being a top 10 forward. Couple that with the extremely impressive playoff resume and the massive reputation as a stoic and courageous individual. Basically, imagine a guy with a reputation like Toews, but magnify it, put him on a dynasty and give 10 years of being top 5.
Malkin is great. If everyone retired today I'd have him ahead of Crosby and right around Ovi's level (though likely still behind). For him to reach Beliveau's level he would need another 5-8 seasons of being a top 5 guys in the league. He'll never approach Beliveau on a respect level or on a playoff success level. To beat him he'd need to consistently be a top guy for the next decade.
Conversely, he would need to win 2 more Harts/Art Rosses. He would crush Beliveau on peak if he managed that.
It's hard to say what Malkin will do for the rest of his career. He had the best post-Jagr year last year, but looked really unimpressive in 2010-11 and has looked only good this year. I think it's equally likely that he wins the Art Ross in 2013-14 as it his he hovers around 0.9 PPG. But as far as my money is he's the second best in the world after Sid.
I would also like to say that the best Malkin comparison is a Mikita or Esposito or Jagr. The best Beliveau comparison is Zetterberg, Toews or Alffy.
Just a general point about the Crosby issue: Beliveau wasn't necessarily the best player on his team every single year, either. Geoffrion and Plante both won Harts during #4's era.
Hey, just to be clear: I'm not saying that Malkin is anywhere close to Beliveau at this point. . . I just think the projection of what he would have to do makes for an interesting conversation.
In particular, its kind of interesting to note that Malkin already has two Art Ross's to Beliveau's one. . . I always have to go back and remind myself that Jean only has the one scoring title. Always seems wrong.
. . . And I'd also suggest that Malkin is well past Sundin already. Malkin was a Calder, a Conn Smythe, two Harts, and two Art Ross's. Sundin was never even in the conversation for as much as a single piece of hardware.
Beliveau sort of had Forsberg syndrome, where he rarely put together a complete season due to injury (edit: just before someone jumps down my throat, what I'm saying is he missed at least some games many years, not that he was constantly injured), but personally, I don't tend to hold that against players as long as they produce a lot in the games they do play, which Beliveau certainly did. Malkin's got more rosses than Crosby too, but if the gap between those two wasn't obvious already, it's quickly becoming that way.
And yeah, Malkin's best accomplishments are better than Sundins, but Sundin's the first big center who came to mind that comparing Malkin to wasn't either woefully premature or insulting.
Beliveau sort of had Forsberg syndrome, where he rarely put together a complete season due to injury, but personally, I don't tend to hold that against players as long as they produce a lot in the games they do play, which Beliveau certainly did. Malkin's got more rosses than Crosby too, but if the gap between those two wasn't obvious already, it's quickly becoming that way.
And yeah, Malkin's best accomplishments are better than Sundins, but Sundin's the first big center who came to mind that comparing Malkin too wasn't either woefully premature or insulting.
While he had lots of injuries, his top 10 finishes are incredibly impressive. He finises top 5 in points 8 times and top 3 7 times.
I'm not quite clear on what you mean here; are you saying that because Malkin won't get the opportunities he needs to succeed with Crosby around, he won't exceed Beliveau; or are you saying that he simply wouldn't be able to overcome the perception of Jean Beliveau as a leader and franchise centerpiece?
Jean was the undisputed #1 center and player IMO for that Habs franchise, Rockets playoff heroics aside.
It's going to be very hard for Malkin to get out from under Sid's shadow.
That being said the increase in hitting and overall contact is so much more prevalent today and will work against guys like Malkin and even Sid in their quest for top 5,10 ect status IMO.
Malkin is also 1 year older and started his NHL career 1 year after Sids 102 point rookie season which hurts his case as well in the long run.
I give some consideration to none NHL stuff but not to sure how many others will do the same.
Beliveau sort of had Forsberg syndrome, where he rarely put together a complete season due to injury (edit: just before someone jumps down my throat, what I'm saying is he missed at least some games many years, not that he was constantly injured), but personally, I don't tend to hold that against players as long as they produce a lot in the games they do play, which Beliveau certainly did. Malkin's got more rosses than Crosby too, but if the gap between those two wasn't obvious already, it's quickly becoming that way.
And yeah, Malkin's best accomplishments are better than Sundins, but Sundin's the first big center who came to mind that comparing Malkin to wasn't either woefully premature or insulting.
Regularly missing about 10 regular season games per year was a Messier thing more than a Forsberg thing. Forsberg had a few complete seasons and a few where he missed far more than 10 games. Good overall point though.
And that's before getting into his stellar playoff record - 176 points in 162 playoff games is ridiculous for a player who played the majority of his career before expansion.
It's a minor point but his last 3 SC came after expansion when the winner in the east was almost guaranteed the SC as they played a Western team (which in 68 and 69 were only limited to expansion teams and in 71 The Blacks Hawks after realignment).
Maybe he reaches those heights (but not in raw numbers and counting stats due to less games) in a 06 league if expansion never occurs it's hard to say because his down years when he got older where also his injured years, in full years his decline is much less than one would expect for his era.
Evgeni Malkin would have to improve his faceoff and defensive skills to a level....
and on and on.... signing deals to be a spokesperson for Guaranteed Pure Pak Milk Cartons & ScotiaBank Travellers Checks. All kinds of miles does young Evgeni have to travel yet, and when if ever he arrives? Stations boarded up, torn down, building moved. So in other words? Never. There was/is only one Jean Beliveau on or off the ice, and Mr. Malkin sure aint it. Great player, yes, but hardly a valid nor fair comparison surely.
It's a minor point but his last 3 SC came after expansion when the winner in the east was almost guaranteed the SC as they played a Western team (which in 68 and 69 were only limited to expansion teams and in 71 The Blacks Hawks after realignment).
Maybe he reaches those heights (but not in raw numbers and counting stats due to less games) in a 06 league if expansion never occurs it's hard to say because his down years when he got older where also his injured years, in full years his decline is much less than one would expect for his era.
Good points.
His pre-expansion playoff numbers are 128 points in 118 games. 1.08 PPG.
His post-expansions stats are 48 points in 44 games. 1.09 PPG.
Granted, he was declining by expansion so although those numbers look the same, they may be inflated a little.
Those are insane numbers, though, any way you slice it. Wow. He was over a PPG in the playoffs fourteen times in a low-scoring era.
Jean was the undisputed #1 center and player IMO for that Habs franchise, Rockets playoff heroics aside.
It's going to be very hard for Malkin to get out from under Sid's shadow.
That being said the increase in hitting and overall contact is so much more prevalent today and will work against guys like Malkin and even Sid in their quest for top 5,10 ect status IMO.
Malkin is also 1 year older and started his NHL career 1 year after Sids 102 point rookie season which hurts his case as well in the long run.
I give some consideration to none NHL stuff but not to sure how many others will do the same.
I don't know, Malkin will never have to play against anyone like Terrible Ted. His lack of discipline might have have been an even bigger concern than durability, though he's already had problems with a knee and shoulder, not to mention the recent almost-concussion so I see your point.
To answer the op's question, a minimum of 7 more top 5 finishes in scoring and a few more Harts. Winning another few Smythes and Stanley Cups too. I wouldn't hold your breath, even if it does happen he won't do the things Cs58 laid out. He's always been weak in the dot and while his defense is underrated if you think he's putrid, it's still nothing to write home about unless you equate a variable real-time stat like takeaways with defensive ability, which thankfully no one on this board does.
His pre-expansion playoff numbers are 128 points in 118 games. 1.08 PPG.
His post-expansions stats are 48 points in 44 games. 1.09 PPG.
Granted, he was declining by expansion so although those numbers look the same, they may be inflated a little.
Those are insane numbers, though, any way you slice it. Wow. He was over a PPG in the playoffs fourteen times in a low-scoring era.
Yes his playoff numbers are insane and while I did bring up expansion I'm not positive that it really extended Jeans career as he was aging really well already.
Jean is my pick for #5 guy of all time, assuming one agrees on the top 4, but I have days where I think he deserves a spot in the top 3 really but I'm a huge career guy, probably more so than most here.
Jean didn't just hang around he did so in Temmu like fashion.
