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What does Malkin have to do from here to move ahead of Beliveau all-time?

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Old
03-11-2013, 11:51 PM
  #26
BenchBrawl
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3-4 other art rosses , at least 2 other very glorious playoff run including one that ends with a cup , other great seasons without trophy but finishing close , 1 or 2 hart would be good.

frankly i think beliveau is already out of reach for him unless he steps up on another higher level

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03-11-2013, 11:52 PM
  #27
DisgruntledGoat
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Jean is my pick for #5 guy of all time, assuming one agrees on the top 4, but I have days where I think he deserves a spot in the top 3 really but I'm a huge career guy, probably more so than most here.
So who would you drop out of the top four for Beliveau? Going by the career mark, I'd assuming Lemieux or Orr?

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03-12-2013, 12:05 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
So who would you drop out of the top four for Beliveau? Going by the career mark, I'd assuming Lemieux or Orr?
I would drop out Mario before Bobby but would think about putting him ahead of even Bobby on my most "career" days.

I actually prefer to keep forwards, Dmen and goalies separate in all time lists.

The case over Mario is much greater than for Orr though.

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03-12-2013, 12:21 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
Two of the best big, graceful centermen in the game's history. Le Gros Bill is in the conversation (in another thread) for fifth best player of all-time, but what would Malkin have to do here on out to move ahead of Beliveau? Could it happen?

And note: if your contribution is going to be your stunning insight into how today's players are vastly superior in conditioning/ability/level of competition. . . please, do us all a favour, and don't bother.
Please stop overating Malkin. Right now I rather have Stamkos

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03-12-2013, 12:28 AM
  #30
DisgruntledGoat
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Originally Posted by BROOKLYnKNIGHTS View Post
Please stop overating Malkin. Right now I rather have Stamkos
Not saying Malkin is as good as Beliveau or even on pass for that.

The question is: what would he HAVE to do to get there? Is it even possible?

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03-12-2013, 12:50 AM
  #31
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
Not saying Malkin is as good as Beliveau or even on pass for that.

The question is: what would he HAVE to do to get there? Is it even possible?
It's possible but he is already 26.

I'm wondering what has more worth Jean's time with the Aces in Quebec city or Malkin's in Russia and WC

Leaning towards Malkin but it's not even close enough to even bother considering it into the equation yet.

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03-12-2013, 11:36 AM
  #32
Fred Taylor
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The real question is what does Crosby have to do to catch Beliveau. He's the only one who has a realistic shot at it, he's dominating right now and if he keeps it up could be in the conversation of 5 best with Beliveau, Malkin I don't think even has a chance at the top 10 to be honest.

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03-12-2013, 12:20 PM
  #33
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The real question is what does Crosby have to do to catch Beliveau. He's the only one who has a realistic shot at it, he's dominating right now and if he keeps it up could be in the conversation of 5 best with Beliveau, Malkin I don't think even has a chance at the top 10 to be honest.
If he wins this year that'll be two Art Rosses and two Harts. Elite, but similar trophy wise to an Ovi or Malkin. It's if he wins next year that he moves into all-time territory. 3 Art Rosses is good for 7th all-time. 3 Harts is as many as Orr or Lemieux had.

Here is his point finishes right now.

Goals: 1
Assists: 2, 2, 7, 8
Points: 1, 2, 3, 6

Impressive, but not nearly all time. This year he'll likely add a top 10 goal finish, and a first for both points and assists. If he can repeat next year then remain ~PPG for the rest of his career while playing 1100+ games he might push into top 10. That would make him a ~1350 point player. Now, he could win 3 Art Rosses in a row and net 1700+ points/1200+ assists. Or he could fizzle out as another Lindros.

If any player post-Jagr has the ability to crack top 10, its Crosby.

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03-12-2013, 08:06 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
If he wins this year that'll be two Art Rosses and two Harts. Elite, but similar trophy wise to an Ovi or Malkin. It's if he wins next year that he moves into all-time territory. 3 Art Rosses is good for 7th all-time. 3 Harts is as many as Orr or Lemieux had.

Here is his point finishes right now.

Goals: 1
Assists: 2, 2, 7, 8
Points: 1, 2, 3, 6

Impressive, but not nearly all time. This year he'll likely add a top 10 goal finish, and a first for both points and assists. If he can repeat next year then remain ~PPG for the rest of his career while playing 1100+ games he might push into top 10. That would make him a ~1350 point player. Now, he could win 3 Art Rosses in a row and net 1700+ points/1200+ assists. Or he could fizzle out as another Lindros.

If any player post-Jagr has the ability to crack top 10, its Crosby.
3 art rosses is good for 7th all time? Based on what? Jagr has 5 and barely anyone puts him in the top 10. Or, do you mean 7th all-time in art ross trophies?

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03-12-2013, 09:07 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by habsfanatics View Post
3 art rosses is good for 7th all time? Based on what? Jagr has 5 and barely anyone puts him in the top 10. Or, do you mean 7th all-time in art ross trophies?
In trophies.

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03-13-2013, 01:30 AM
  #36
Big Phil
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He'll have to do a lot. I will admit Beliveau is my #5 all-time guy. Start with the postseason. Look, 10 Cups is virtually impossible for the main reason that it was virtually impossible in the Original 6 era as well. Henri Richard has 11, Beliveau and Cournoyer have 10. That's it. So don't count on that happening since the 1980s the highest Cup counters have been Trottier, Messier, Anderson and Lowe at 6. Even going more modern you'd say Roy, Lidstrom and Niedermayer with 4. It's hard, so don't bother assuming he reaches close to 10.

However, Beliveau won a Conn Smythe in 1965 which ties him with Malkin. But Beliveau has at least one other year (1956) where he is a retro Smythe winner. You also saw Beliveau as (arguably) the best player in two different dynasties which will never happen again. He was a playoff warrior and in my opinion is very similar to Richard when it comes to this.

I think one thing Malkin can somewhat compare to Beliveau is how their offense is spread. Both players are a threat to score as much as pass. You wouldn't want to let either of them have that option because they can burn you either way. Beliveau led the NHL in goals twice while Malkin hasn't once. However, Malkin has two Art Rosses in comparison to Beliveau's 1.

Malkin could be a better leader, maybe more consistent at times and could improve his defensive side of things without taking away from his offense. That was Beliveau for pretty much his whole career.

Lastly, his longevity. Beliveau didn't need to retire in 1971. He had 76 points that year and 22 playoff points helping the Habs to another Cup. Dryden won the Conn Smythe and Frank Mahovlich scored 14 goals but you probably pick Beliveau as the next important player on that great team, and he was 39 and in his last year. That's some serious longevity and Beliveau hardly slowed down in his 30s so Malkin will need to age well.

It will be a very tall order for Malkin, or even Crosby, to overtake Beliveau.

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Old
03-13-2013, 10:13 AM
  #37
tony d
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I think for Malkin to pass Beliveau he has to:

- Score 100 points each season until 2020-2021
- Develop a defensive game
- Get traded out of Pittsburgh
- Go on a few good playoff runs

Then and only then can be start comparing Malkin to Beliveau.

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Old
03-13-2013, 11:10 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Beliveau's Hart record: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 7, 8

And that's before getting into his stellar playoff record - 176 points in 162 playoff games is ridiculous for a player who played the majority of his career before expansion.
This!

I believe this puts an end to any Malkin- Beliveau discussion. Is there hope? Of course but he has a long long long way to go. Remember, Beliveau did this in the O6 era, so to me Malkin is not anywhere close yet.

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Old
03-13-2013, 04:31 PM
  #39
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Simple answer: Jean's out of reach.

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03-14-2013, 07:13 AM
  #40
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Beliveau is interesting, as I really think he’s the first player in an All-Time list where intangibles really come into the conversation (not that the top-4, or others vying for the Top 5 don’t have them). Makes it a little more difficult to get a consensus IMO.

As an aside, I really feel that the NHL needs to name something after Le Gros Bill, and before he passes. They screwed the pooch IMO with the “Mark Messier” Leadership Award (as obvious way to honour Jean as anything), and I don’t like the idea of renaming awards after the fact (except the Pearson/Lindsay…that one I don’t mind, since it is an NHLPA award). Perhaps the Lifetime achievement award can be named in his honour. It’s not really attached to anyone right now.

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Old
03-14-2013, 09:10 PM
  #41
DisgruntledGoat
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Originally Posted by JaymzB View Post
Beliveau is interesting, as I really think he’s the first player in an All-Time list where intangibles really come into the conversation (not that the top-4, or others vying for the Top 5 don’t have them). Makes it a little more difficult to get a consensus IMO.
Richard?

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Old
03-14-2013, 11:38 PM
  #42
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It's damn near impossible to match Beliveau's intangibles. That's what seperated him from other great players. Even if Malkin put up 100 point seasons for the next 4-5 seasons, he's not even the alpha dog on his own team.

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