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2013: Finally putting to bed the idea that the Pens draft poorly.

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Old
03-12-2013, 02:49 PM
  #76
Shwag33
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WE NEED WINGERS!!! Except we've scored 12 more goals than the 2nd most team in the league.


97, next closest team has 85. We've scored 43 more goals this year than nashville.

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03-12-2013, 02:56 PM
  #77
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Weren't people flipping out because they selected Despres over Ray Ferraro's kid?

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03-12-2013, 02:57 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by czwalga View Post
WE NEED WINGERS!!! Except we've scored 12 more goals than the 2nd most team in the league.


97, next closest team has 85. We've scored 43 more goals this year than nashville.
You all say this but when we play against a top team in the playoffs and Crosby is contained you are going to wish we had more than Bennett and Dupuis to pickup the slack.

I love our great defense that Shero built but yet we had to bring back Mart Eaton, Despres has been a healthy scratch every other night and bourtuzzo is often a healthy scratch.

Orpik, letang, Martin, Niskanen, engelland and eaton would probably start if the playoffs began tomorrow. None our future great dmen.

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03-12-2013, 02:59 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by No Wingers View Post
You all say this but when we play against a top team in the playoffs and Crosby is contained you are going to wish we had more than Bennett and Dupuis to pickup the slack.

I love our great defense that Shero built but yet we had to bring back Mart Eaton, Despres has been a healthy scratch every other night and bourtuzzo is often a healthy scratch.

Orpik, letang, Martin, Niskanen, engelland and eaton would probably start if the playoffs began tomorrow. None our future great dmen.
Where do you get this. We have beaten every top team in the east. We play boston twice this week and we'll learn a lot more then.

We are sitting Engo for depres right now.

I guess the pens should hang it up right now. No wingers says so

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03-12-2013, 03:02 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by No Wingers View Post
You all say this but when we play against a top team in the playoffs and Crosby is contained you are going to wish we had more than Bennett and Dupuis to pickup the slack.

I love our great defense that Shero built but yet we had to bring back Mart Eaton, Despres has been a healthy scratch every other night and bourtuzzo is often a healthy scratch.

Orpik, letang, Martin, Niskanen, engelland and eaton would probably start if the playoffs began tomorrow. None our future great dmen.


No we need to be able to grind it out and win a 2-1 game against a quality opponent. Forsberg won't help us do that.

I'm more than confident our wingers are good enough to win the cup. Defense and especially goaltending i'm not so sure about.

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03-12-2013, 03:06 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Don'tcry4mejanhrdina View Post
Weren't people flipping out because they selected Despres over Ray Ferraro's kid?



Yes people were losing their mind at the time, similar to this year when we passed on forsberg.


Ferraro hasn't even played a game in the NHL yet.

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Old
03-12-2013, 03:10 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by No Wingers View Post
You all say this but when we play against a top team in the playoffs and Crosby is contained you are going to wish we had more than Bennett and Dupuis to pickup the slack.

I love our great defense that Shero built but yet we had to bring back Mart Eaton, Despres has been a healthy scratch every other night and bourtuzzo is often a healthy scratch.

Orpik, letang, Martin, Niskanen, engelland and eaton would probably start if the playoffs began tomorrow. None our future great dmen.
The key word there being, uh, "future."

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03-12-2013, 03:21 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by czwalga View Post
No we need to be able to grind it out and win a 2-1 game against a quality opponent. Forsberg won't help us do that.

I'm more than confident our wingers are good enough to win the cup. Defense and especially goaltending i'm not so sure about.
Goaltending is more than adequate to win the cup, it's the strong defensive presence of guys like Scuderi and Gill that the Pens are severly lacking in. Just look at the photo of Fleury's save to secure the cup and see how well Scuderi is boxing Holmstrom out.




Compare that to now, where guys like JVR are allowed to spend all day in Fleury's face because nobody moves them... except for the special occasions where Orpik pushes the onto Fleury (or Vokoun).

The team has shifted away from tough, gritty players to softer, less physical puck movers because that's what Bylsma's system calls for. Needless to say, I'm not looking forward to seeing Lucic camp out on Fleury's lap tonight. GMRS needs to make a statement by acquiring a couple of shutdown/defensive defensemen at (or before) the deadline if he's planning on being a cup contender, otherwise it'll be riding almost entire on Fleury just like it did last year.

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03-12-2013, 03:25 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by No Wingers View Post
How can anyone not think we should be more balanced? If he would have drafted a guy like Forsberg who instantly becomes our best forward prospect. Whereas a guy like pouliot is probably behind morrow, Despres, etc.

I'm not being a troll, but this thread is false. I'm sure those praising Zero Shero were the same fans praising Boychuk, Tangradi, Caputi and Bourque.
It's too early to tell on last year's draft. But if you're saying that Despres, Morrow & Harrington were bad choices because "we need wingers," then you're 100% wrong/misguided. Those are shaping up to be excellent selections given when we took them. If he'd selected a winger with any of those picks, he almost certainly would have gotten less value.

I'm more skeptical about Pouliot being the right pick, but hey, it's early and we won't begin to know who was right/wrong for another 2 years or so.

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03-12-2013, 03:29 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by radapex View Post
Goaltending is more than adequate to win the cup, it's the strong defensive presence of guys like Scuderi and Gill that the Pens are severly lacking in. Just look at the photo of Fleury's save to secure the cup and see how well Scuderi is boxing Holmstrom out.




Compare that to now, where guys like JVR are allowed to spend all day in Fleury's face because nobody moves them... except for the special occasions where Orpik pushes the onto Fleury (or Vokoun).

The team has shifted away from tough, gritty players to softer, less physical puck movers because that's what Bylsma's system calls for. Needless to say, I'm not looking forward to seeing Lucic camp out on Fleury's lap tonight. GMRS needs to make a statement by acquiring a couple of shutdown/defensive defensemen at (or before) the deadline if he's planning on being a cup contender, otherwise it'll be riding almost entire on Fleury just like it did last year.


I remember that save, I was about 60 feet away


Fleury is capable of winning a cup, but he's going to have to show me after the last 3 dreadful playoff performances. Yeah, i'm not putting all the blame on him, but you can't let softies in every game and he's been struggling in the playoffs regardless of how bad the D has has been.

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Old
03-12-2013, 03:39 PM
  #86
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the drafting has been ok, but at the end of the day, crosby is still playing with mediocre wingers and that should be unacceptable.

most of the draft picks have been reasonable, as have shero's free agent attempted signings. but eventually that stuff ceases to matter, when crosby continues to play with pascal effing dupuis.

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03-12-2013, 03:41 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by czwalga View Post
I remember that save, I was about 60 feet away


Fleury is capable of winning a cup, but he's going to have to show me after the last 3 dreadful playoff performances. Yeah, i'm not putting all the blame on him, but you can't let softies in every game and he's been struggling in the playoffs regardless of how bad the D has has been.
He's definitely going to have to be better than he was in the last few playoffs, but the team defense needs to be better than it has been over the past 13-14 months too. If it isn't, it won't matter who's in net for the Pens.

Semi back on topic, that's a major reason why I feel like Harrington and, to a lesser extent, Dumoulin are critical pieces in the organization. They are defensive defensemen who show a top-4, if not top-2, potential. They are a much-needed break in the PMD trend within the organization.

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03-12-2013, 03:42 PM
  #88
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People need to get it through their heads that with Letang, Crosby, Malkin, and Fleury signed they will never be able to afford an "elite" winger.

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Old
03-12-2013, 03:48 PM
  #89
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People need to get it through their heads that with Letang, Crosby, Malkin, and Fleury signed they will never be able to afford an "elite" winger.
Yeah. Neal at 5 million is the most elite we can hope for, on a consistent basis. If we could lure quality veterans interested in cup-hunting on the cheap a-la Iginla, that would be nice though. So far we haven't had success outside of Guerin.

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03-12-2013, 03:57 PM
  #90
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Yea that one mediocre winger who is 3rd in the league in scoring / 2nd in the league in goals is really bringing him down.

There are very few teams in the league that have 6 100% top 6 caliber players. Add on to the fact that we are paying our top two centers over 15 mil per year and it's not surprising we don't have an all star lineup for our top 6. Leading the league in goals isn't a bad consolation prize.

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03-12-2013, 04:01 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by radapex View Post
Goaltending is more than adequate to win the cup, it's the strong defensive presence of guys like Scuderi and Gill that the Pens are severly lacking in. Just look at the photo of Fleury's save to secure the cup and see how well Scuderi is boxing Holmstrom out.

Compare that to now, where guys like JVR are allowed to spend all day in Fleury's face because nobody moves them... except for the special occasions where Orpik pushes the onto Fleury (or Vokoun).

The team has shifted away from tough, gritty players to softer, less physical puck movers because that's what Bylsma's system calls for. Needless to say, I'm not looking forward to seeing Lucic camp out on Fleury's lap tonight. GMRS needs to make a statement by acquiring a couple of shutdown/defensive defensemen at (or before) the deadline if he's planning on being a cup contender, otherwise it'll be riding almost entire on Fleury just like it did last year.
I don't totally agree with this, and neither does Friedman. (EDIT: obviously they need to be more consistent there, because I noticed JVR camped out on the PP for far too long as well). From this week's 30 Thoughts:

23. Bylsma has also spent a lot of practice time on "fronting" drills in the defensive end. Martin St. Louis really praised their work in that area following Pittsburgh's 4-3 win over Tampa on March 4. "I saw him after the game," Brooks Orpik said. "He said it was impossible to get to the net against us." Now they've got to be more consistent at it.

I'm also not seeing a huge shift to less physical puck movers. Pouliot is the only one I can really think of that meets that criteria, and he has more of a mean streak than people think. Harrington might be less physical but he owns the front of the net thanks to superior positioning and stick work.

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03-12-2013, 04:05 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by plaidchuck View Post
People need to get it through their heads that with Letang, Crosby, Malkin, and Fleury signed they will never be able to afford an "elite" winger.
Why do you keep insisting on this, when even Shero himself by his actions this past summer, suggest otherwise?

He was trying to land Zach Parise on a long-term deal. Is Parise not an "elite" winger? Had Shero been successful, the Pens would have had Parise plus those guys you mentioned.

Yet you keep insisting they will "never" be able to afford an elite winger with the core we have.

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03-12-2013, 04:15 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Nietzsche Zone Play View Post
I don't totally agree with this, and neither does Friedman. (EDIT: obviously they need to be more consistent there, because I noticed JVR camped out on the PP for far too long as well). From this week's 30 Thoughts:

23. Bylsma has also spent a lot of practice time on "fronting" drills in the defensive end. Martin St. Louis really praised their work in that area following Pittsburgh's 4-3 win over Tampa on March 4. "I saw him after the game," Brooks Orpik said. "He said it was impossible to get to the net against us." Now they've got to be more consistent at it.

I'm also not seeing a huge shift to less physical puck movers. Pouliot is the only one I can really think of that meets that criteria, and he has more of a mean streak than people think. Harrington might be less physical but he owns the front of the net thanks to superior positioning and stick work.
Since losing Scuderi & Gill to free agency after winning the cup, Michalek has been the closest thing to a defensive or shutdown defenseman the team has seen. He didn't work in the system and was shipped back to Phoenix, where's he playing on their top pairing with Oliver Ekman-Larsson.

Now, Martin is the most defensive defenseman on the team - and he's more of a PMD than he is a defensive defenseman. Letang, Niskanen, and Despres are PMDs; Orpik and Engelland are physical but don't confuse that with defensive. You could argue that Eaton or Bortuzzo fit the bill, but ideally neither of them (nor Engelland) would be in the lineup.

Scuderi isn't a big, physical guy himself - he makes himself effective through sound positioning of both the body and the stick... which makes it all the more annoying that physical defensemen like Orpik and Engelland don't utilize their size to clear the crease.

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03-12-2013, 04:34 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Nietzsche Zone Play View Post
23. Bylsma has also spent a lot of practice time on "fronting" drills in the defensive end. Martin St. Louis really praised their work in that area following Pittsburgh's 4-3 win over Tampa on March 4. "I saw him after the game," Brooks Orpik said. "He said it was impossible to get to the net against us." Now they've got to be more consistent at it.
Well that makes me feel better. The smallest midget in the league couldn't get to the front of the net. We'll see just how good it is against Lucic in about 90 minutes. I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict it's harder to move him than 5'2" St. Louis.

to add to this...I think the poster that posted the idea originally of being too soft defensively definitely has a point. And I'm not talking about along the boards, but right in front of the net specifically. They get burned there. Simmonds, Hartnell, Lucic, etc. have no problem camping out there, and often times the defense themselves do a nice job of screening the goalie.

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03-12-2013, 04:34 PM
  #95
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Dont talk to "glass half empty" No Wingers about that
Ha. W/ him, there is no glass...

I'm 1st gen Swedish so I wanted forsberg as much as anyone could when we traded staal. After talking to people about it and really paying more attention to both players, I love the pouliot pick.

This org knows what they're doing. Sometimes things don't work out despite best process, but it happens to everyone.

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03-12-2013, 04:35 PM
  #96
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Because I'm bored and have some free time ... From the 2006 draft to 2010, players who have played at least 80 career games or are close to full time NHLers this season;

Caps:
2006 - Backstrom, Varlamov, Neuvirth, Perreault
2007 - Alzner
2008 - Carlson, Holtby
2009 - Johannson, Orlov, Eakin
2010 - Kuznetsov (widely considered the best prospect outside the NHL)

Bruins:
2006 - Kessel, Lucic, Marchand
2007 - None
2008 - None
2009 - Caron
2010 - Seguin

(of note, 2011 pick Hamilton is a regular this year)

Hawks:
2006 - Toews
2007 - Kane
2008 - None
2009 - Kruger
2010 - None

(of note, 2011 picks Saad and Shaw are regulars this year)

Sens:
2006 - Foligno, Daugavins, Condra
2007 - O'Brien
2008 - Karlsson, Wiercioch, Smith
2009 - Cowen, Silfverberg, Lehner
2010 - None

Devils:
2006 - Zharkov
2007 - Palmeiri, Halischuk
2008 - Tedenby, Henrique
2009 - Josefson
2010 - None

(Of note, 2011 pick Larsson is a NHL regular)

Flyers:
2006 - Giroux, Nodl
2007 - VanRiemsdyk
2008 - Sbisa, Rinaldo
2009 - None
2010 - None

(Of note, 2011 pick Couturier is a NHL regular)

That's six teams that drafted around where the Pens have drafted since 2006, and their drafting track record.
The Caps had a couple of 1st round picks in a couple of those years. One year when they took the amazing Anton Gustafsson the pick before Eberle.

Senguin was picked 2nd overall & Bennett went 20th. Not sure how that's drafted "around" where the Pens drafted not to mention that pick came from Kessell who they used to get that pick.

Patrick Kane was picked 1st overall when we picked 20th. Once again not sure how that's "around".

All these teams you've mentioned have had high picks and/or multiple 1st rounders. How is that similar to us picking low?

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03-12-2013, 04:41 PM
  #97
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The Caps had a couple of 1st round picks in a couple of those years. One year when they took the amazing Anton Gustafsson the pick before Eberle.

Senguin was picked 2nd overall & Bennett went 20th. Not sure how that's drafted "around" where the Pens drafted not to mention that pick came from Kessell who they used to get that pick.

Patrick Kane was picked 1st overall when we picked 20th. Once again not sure how that's "around".

All these teams you've mentioned have had high picks and/or multiple 1st rounders. How is that similar to us picking low?
Yea it's a terrible list.

And for the record, I still think Gustafson was a good pick. Pretty sure he's actively trying to make a comeback right now.

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03-12-2013, 04:49 PM
  #98
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Well that makes me feel better. The smallest midget in the league couldn't get to the front of the net. We'll see just how good it is against Lucic in about 90 minutes. I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict it's harder to move him than 5'2" St. Louis.

to add to this...I think the poster that posted the idea originally of being too soft defensively definitely has a point. And I'm not talking about along the boards, but right in front of the net specifically. They get burned there. Simmonds, Hartnell, Lucic, etc. have no problem camping out there, and often times the defense themselves do a nice job of screening the goalie.
first off, St Louis has made a nice career for himself being fearless in close. size has nothing do with it.

secondly, are you advocating taking cross checking penalties to put that fearsome PK on the ice even more? refs just do not allow the physicality in front that we grew up watching - even as recently as the Cup run.

I do agree the Pens need one more solid defensive defenseman. I would love for a Hejda/Smid-type acquisition.

also, keep in mind Scuderi/Gill were 3rd pairing who played relatively low minutes until that playoff run. obviously they were a HUGE part of that run but I think some things get forgotten now that they have achieved "legendary" status.

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03-12-2013, 04:55 PM
  #99
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Yeah people act like the Pens had Samuelsson and Scott Stevens running around hitting everything during the cup run.

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03-12-2013, 05:06 PM
  #100
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The Caps had a couple of 1st round picks in a couple of those years. One year when they took the amazing Anton Gustafsson the pick before Eberle.

Senguin was picked 2nd overall & Bennett went 20th. Not sure how that's drafted "around" where the Pens drafted not to mention that pick came from Kessell who they used to get that pick.

Patrick Kane was picked 1st overall when we picked 20th. Once again not sure how that's "around".

All these teams you've mentioned have had high picks and/or multiple 1st rounders. How is that similar to us picking low?
Tender Rip asked for a list of who those teams drafted during the same time frame (2006 to 2010), so I listed them.

It wasn't my intent with that post to make any sort of statement about their drafting compared to ours. I was merely providing the list of draft picks for the teams that TR asked about.

My use of the term "around" was meant more in terms of those teams have had similar success to ours over the last half dozen seasons, not that every single pick of theirs was around the exact same pick we made. I worded that final sentence confusingly.

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