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2013: Finally putting to bed the idea that the Pens draft poorly.

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Old
03-12-2013, 05:09 PM
  #101
turd
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Originally Posted by Nietzsche Zone Play View Post
secondly, are you advocating taking cross checking penalties to put that fearsome PK on the ice even more? refs just do not allow the physicality in front that we grew up watching - even as recently as the Cup run.
Where did you even get that implication? I'm implying that the team should be harder to play against and that the other team should have to work for their space in front of the net.

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03-12-2013, 05:40 PM
  #102
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Honestly the biggest thing the team is missing is a consistent 3rd line that can forecheck hard and occasionally produce. Sutter is fine and will most likely only get better but yes we are still feeling the sting of Staal being gone.

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03-12-2013, 05:51 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Nietzsche Zone Play View Post
first off, St Louis has made a nice career for himself being fearless in close. size has nothing do with it.

secondly, are you advocating taking cross checking penalties to put that fearsome PK on the ice even more? refs just do not allow the physicality in front that we grew up watching - even as recently as the Cup run.
Not at all. You can be effective in front of the net just through sound positioning. Right now, guys who get in front of the net go virtually untouched. Tie up their sticks, get in close and battle, try to move them out of the way. Refs will let that stuff go, they view it as part of the game. As long as you don't go overboard or start working the stick, you're fine.

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Originally Posted by Nietzsche Zone Play View Post
I do agree the Pens need one more solid defensive defenseman. I would love for a Hejda/Smid-type acquisition.

also, keep in mind Scuderi/Gill were 3rd pairing who played relatively low minutes until that playoff run. obviously they were a HUGE part of that run but I think some things get forgotten now that they have achieved "legendary" status.
They don't necessarily have to go get a marquee defensemen or anything like that. Bottom 2 or 3 guys (#4-#6) could work just fine in the meantime. It's about getting guys in the lineup that can be trusted to play smart, sound defensive hockey at key stages of a game. I just don't know that the Pens have anyone that fits that bill right now.

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03-12-2013, 05:58 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by plaidchuck View Post
Honestly the biggest thing the team is missing is a consistent 3rd line that can forecheck hard and occasionally produce. Sutter is fine and will most likely only get better but yes we are still feeling the sting of Staal being gone.
I agree with this. But I'm also not sure if Adams/Glass are really what we want to be bringing to the table either, even on the 4th line. It's obviously not as big of a concern, but in the playoffs you have to scratch out victories, and your depth guys have to play big if you want to win. Not sure ours can right now, but I'd love for them to prove me wrong.

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03-12-2013, 08:11 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by turd View Post
I looked at about 20 mock drafts from 2009 and I'd say 80% of them had Despres going top-25. Several had him as high as 12th or 14th. So I'd say general consensus was that he wouldn't be around at the Pens slot. He fit a need, he was available, he fell to us, and Shero took him. Credit to Shero, but sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. I just think there was an incredible stroke of luck involved, and there's nothing wrong with that at all.
So ****ing what?

Mock drafts are completely inconsequential, and have no bearing on anything. Luck has no more to do with the Pens drafting Despres than any other draft pick in any organization's history.

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Being informed isn't a very valued commodity in general these days, I know.

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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
RRP has been the MVP of optimism. It's nice for a change to get some positive stuff going on. I actually fully agree with you, too.
I try. The amount of negativity on this board lately seems totally disproportionate with the state of the organization. Minor quibbles are being magnified into all-consuming, catastrophic problems.

Reading this place some days you'd think we were the Blue Jackets.

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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
Because I'm bored and have some free time ... From the 2006 draft to 2010, players who have played at least 80 career games or are close to full time NHLers this season;

Caps:
2006 - Backstrom, Varlamov, Neuvirth, Perreault
2007 - Alzner
2008 - Carlson, Holtby
2009 - Johannson, Orlov, Eakin
2010 - Kuznetsov (widely considered the best prospect outside the NHL)
Tons of extra picks, and higher picks, because when we were trading futures for Cup runs they were selling off assets for picks. And look at 'em now.

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Bruins:
2006 - Kessel, Lucic, Marchand
2007 - None
2008 - None
2009 - Caron
2010 - Seguin
Our high-end guys have come at the latter end of that run, and I wouldn't trade our picks for theirs, discounting the extra lotto pick used for Seguin.

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Hawks:
2006 - Toews
2007 - Kane
2008 - None
2009 - Kruger
2010 - None
Again, discounting the extra lotto pick, I don't think they've done any better than the Pens.

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Sens:
2006 - Foligno, Daugavins, Condra
2007 - O'Brien
2008 - Karlsson, Wiercioch, Smith
2009 - Cowen, Silfverberg, Lehner
2010 - None
Sens have drafted well for their position over that span. Kind of apples to oranges though, considering they had more mid-round picks.

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Devils:
2006 - Zharkov
2007 - Palmeiri, Halischuk
2008 - Tedenby, Henrique
2009 - Josefson
2010 - None
I'd take the Pens over the Devils during that span every day of the week.

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Flyers:
2006 - Giroux, Nodl
2007 - VanRiemsdyk
2008 - Sbisa, Rinaldo
2009 - None
2010 - None
Giroux was a fantastic pick. Outside of that, pretty underwhelming (JVR fits into our Staal category of "tough to **** up a 2nd overall").

Sbisa's pretty solid, but nothing Muzzin and Bortuzzo don't reasonably project to become.

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Originally Posted by turd View Post
edit...I see Sidney the Kidney did a very similar list. And look, we still have several prospects that haven't even touched NHL ice yet in the regular season. So it's not like there's no hope, and that certainly wasn't what I was trying to imply. The other teams I listed, though, have some very impressive players that they've drafted since '06.
And all things considered, I don't think any of them have done any/much better than we have.

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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I'm with you DD.

Too many people can't enjoy that for the first time in years, the Pens finally have two rookies making a big impact. It's early, but if Shero just landed a top four blueliner and a top six winger with late round picks, how the hell can people complain? Seriously?


Bort has the look of a solid bottom pairing guy, Morrow and Harrington I'm pretty sold on their chances of having an impact. DP and Maatta have a high pedigree and are being brought along by two of the finest org in jr hockey. Uher and Archibald have the look of high energy third liners. A lot of people I have talked to really like Blueger and think he has top six skills (haven't seen him play).

The only thing missing is more top end fwd prospects, but I'm still convinced Shero will rectify that this draft and moving fwd.

Shero has created a hell of a farm without the benefit of high picks and the team is just beginning to reap the benefits. He has built the best blueline farm in the league, bar none. He has accumulated a lot of potential solid depth players and his only legit top six fwd prospect is looking promising...

What is there to complain about?
Exactly. To get two of those types of players at the tail end of the 1st is pretty impressive.

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Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
Not sure if we should give ourselves any credit for drafting Muzzin since we ended up not even signing him? If anything, that should count as a negative pick for us in this analysis. Same thing but to a slightly lesser degree with Strait. Drafting and developing pro-level players for other teams isn't something to really brag out.
This thread is strictly about the draft. Given that context, Muzzin's success absolutely applies.

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Originally Posted by No Wingers View Post
Shero's done a great job drafting dmen, you can't dispute that. But I just wish we had more balance, maybe instead of 6 or 7 very promising dmen we should have 4 and maybe 3 or 4 promising forwards who are on the verge of being nhl ready instead of in 2 or 3 years some of these forwards will be ready for the AHL!

How can anyone not think we should be more balanced? If he would have drafted a guy like Forsberg who instantly becomes our best forward prospect. Whereas a guy like pouliot is probably behind morrow, Despres, etc.
If you know anything about drafting, you know you draft BPA.

Thinking like you do, we'd have Landon Ferraro instead of Simon Despres right now.

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03-12-2013, 09:20 PM
  #106
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I'm not even sure what the obsession with young wingers is at this point. Neal and Bennett have 2 of the spots locked down for a long time. They'll need wingers for sure, but it's not like the organization is as bereft of wing talent as people want to act.
For me it's getting a top 6 winger on the team for under 1M for 1-3 years. With the names we have on this team, getting a top 6er that doesn't cost 3M+ is huge.

That and the possibility of filling a spot next to Sid or Geno for the next decade w/o having to out bid other teams in FA or trade a bunch of assets for.

We could have very seen this top 6 to start 2014-2015 (or even next year if Fors comes over):

Bennett (.9M) - Crosby (8.7M) - Kunitz (~3M)
Forsberg (1.5M) - Malkin (~9)M - Neal (5M)

But hey, Shero knows more about drafting than I do so I'm not allowed to question the DP pick.

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03-12-2013, 09:32 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by czwalga View Post
Yes people were losing their mind at the time, similar to this year when we passed on forsberg.


Ferraro hasn't even played a game in the NHL yet.
Taking a guy who projected to go ~20 that dropped to you @ 30 is not the same as taking a guy who was projected to go ~15 at the 8th spot with guys who were projected to got in the top 5 still on the board, who also filled a great need for the Pens.

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03-12-2013, 11:50 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
So ****ing what?
So ****ing what? So there were numerous scouting agencies and mock drafts projecting Despres to go long before the Pens were up. By a sheer stroke of luck, he didn't. That's not some shrewd Shero scouting that landed us a good defenseman, that was luck and being in the right place at the right time.

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03-13-2013, 12:08 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turd View Post
So ****ing what? So there were numerous scouting agencies and mock drafts projecting Despres to go long before the Pens were up. By a sheer stroke of luck, he didn't. That's not some shrewd Shero scouting that landed us a good defenseman, that was luck and being in the right place at the right time.
You aren't getting it. Virtually every GM in the league was aware of the rankings of the scouting services and chose not to select Despres. What matters is that Shero did when he just as easily could've followed suit.

The Pens scouting staff saw something that the other GMs didn't, so they picked him. A GM doesn't deserve any less credit for selecting a player generally ranked higher pre-draft who pans out than he does for reaching on a player generally ranked lower (as he did with Bennett).

A pick is a pick, man.

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03-13-2013, 06:45 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Taking a guy who projected to go ~20 that dropped to you @ 30 is not the same as taking a guy who was projected to go ~15 at the 8th spot with guys who were projected to got in the top 5 still on the board, who also filled a great need for the Pens.


The fact that you're even using 'projected to go' numbers as your argument proves how ignorant you really are to the process.

The pens don't look on the website and go OHH thats the draft list! They have their own and their own scouts, this isn't fantasy hockey! Looks like a lot of other teams must have saw something in forsberg they didn't like either.


Only time will tell, but i'm not the one here blasting shero on a 'sure' top winger when the guy hasn't even come close to proving himself yet.


Last edited by Shwag33: 03-13-2013 at 07:49 AM.
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Old
03-13-2013, 07:22 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by turd View Post
So ****ing what? So there were numerous scouting agencies and mock drafts projecting Despres to go long before the Pens were up. By a sheer stroke of luck, he didn't. That's not some shrewd Shero scouting that landed us a good defenseman, that was luck and being in the right place at the right time.
Take a look back at any mock draft in any given draft year, and see how it looks today. They are silly.

And being in the right place at the right time sums up hockey about 90% of the time. It sounds to me you're trying to knock Shero for taking a guy who dropped past where he was supposed to go.

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03-13-2013, 09:47 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by czwalga View Post
The fact that you're even using 'projected to go' numbers as your argument proves how ignorant you really are to the process.

The pens don't look on the website and go OHH thats the draft list! They have their own and their own scouts, this isn't fantasy hockey! Looks like a lot of other teams must have saw something in forsberg they didn't like either.


Only time will tell, but i'm not the one here blasting shero on a 'sure' top winger when the guy hasn't even come close to proving himself yet.
Did you even read the post I quoted?

And defending the pick just because Shero thought he was the right guy doesn't make Shero right and everyone else wrong.

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03-13-2013, 10:09 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Did you even read the post I quoted?

And defending the pick just because Shero thought he was the right guy doesn't make Shero right and everyone else wrong.


I did read, you're saying he's top 5 on the board and you're mad we took somebody at 15 on the board.

Incase you missed it, the "Board" is different for every team. Maybe the pens scouts dont like something they saw in forsberg.



I'm not defending the pick, i'm not judging the pick.... i'm judging the people who basically state forsberg is going to be the greatest. In 4 years I can look back and say yeah shero screwed that one up, or I can say wow what great insight...

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03-13-2013, 02:45 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by czwalga View Post
I did read, you're saying he's top 5 on the board and you're mad we took somebody at 15 on the board.

Incase you missed it, the "Board" is different for every team. Maybe the pens scouts dont like something they saw in forsberg.



I'm not defending the pick, i'm not judging the pick.... i'm judging the people who basically state forsberg is going to be the greatest. In 4 years I can look back and say yeah shero screwed that one up, or I can say wow what great insight...
Man it seems Washington is making us look silly that we chose Pouliot instead of the Swedish guy. DP is only playing a more aggressive, physical game in the WHL averaging a point per game.

Philip Forsberg on the other hand is absolutely crushing the Allsvenskan with 33 points in 38 games, because he can't crack the SEL, the same SEL that several 2013 draft prospects are crushing. Fortunately, our 2012 Swedish 3rd rounder Sundqvist has got Forsberg's back playing his first 14 SEL games, just to show everyone how hard it is to make the big-time.

Seems kinda strange that folks are still moaning about Forsberg....


Last edited by Gallatin: 03-13-2013 at 03:18 PM.
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Old
03-13-2013, 06:59 PM
  #115
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Allow me to translate the bulk of this thread:

"The Pens draft poorly!" = "The Pens don't do things the way I want them to!"

Not that there isn't room for criticism, but poorly? You saps need to re-famliarize yourselves with the wondrous draft years of 1996-2003. Yeesh.

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03-14-2013, 09:50 AM
  #116
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Probably doesn't mean anythign outside of being a conversation piece:

http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...NHL-draft.html

A re-ranking as of today of the 2012 picks by NHL scouts versus their actual drafted order. Of interest are:

Forsberg ranked at 8th (picked 11th by WSH)
Maatta ranked 14th (picked 22nd)
Pouliot ranked 15th (picked 8th)

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03-14-2013, 12:04 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by EatonBabies View Post
I feel like this myth needs called out some. Sure Shero loves his defensemen. But it took him up to his fourth draft to finally use his first pick on one, which was Despres and even then everyone still flipped out while Lovejoy was our best defensive prospect. And the next draft he used his first four picks on forwards. If Shero loved defensemen as much as you seem to imply, he definitely would have went with Tinordi or Pysyk. But he saw the value in Bennett's skills and vision, and then everyone on here still flipped out because he rolled the dice with him because he was a smallish player coming out of the BCHL. There's definitely something Shero sees with his early picks.

If Shero was striking out with some of his picks on defense in the first round, then maybe I'd be a little concerned. But he's been striking gold there and then some. He won't but he can spend all of his first round picks on defense and I won't care.

And everyone needs to stop bringing up Forsberg for crying out loud. Even Winnipeg and Tampa decided to go with defense over him. And is he even playing in the SEL? Let me know when he starts tearing up the NHL, and then we can discuss what a mistake it was not to pick him.
Thanks for posting this, it's exactly how I feel.

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03-14-2013, 12:48 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
Sens:
2006 - Foligno, Daugavins, Condra
2007 - O'Brien
2008 - Karlsson, Wiercioch, Smith
2009 - Cowen, Silfverberg, Lehner
2010 - None
You left out Mika Zibanejad (2011 pick-up)

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03-14-2013, 01:26 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by plaidchuck View Post
Probably doesn't mean anythign outside of being a conversation piece:

http://www.thehockeynews.com/article...NHL-draft.html

A re-ranking as of today of the 2012 picks by NHL scouts versus their actual drafted order. Of interest are:

Mikhail Grigorenko ranked 6th (taken 12th by Buffalo)
Forsberg ranked at 8th (picked 11th by WSH)
Maatta ranked 14th (picked 22nd)
Pouliot ranked 15th (picked 8th)
Ya but Shero had DP as the BPA at 8th so he's automatically better than Fors and Grigs.

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03-14-2013, 01:30 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Ya but Shero had DP as the BPA at 8th so he's automatically better than Fors and Grigs.
What's the difference in the validity of Shero's list (or any other GM's list) and of the list of some scouting service?


Hint: The answer is nothing, actually.

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03-14-2013, 01:35 PM
  #121
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DP has been injured right? No doubt that would automatically lower his stock in the short term.

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03-14-2013, 01:40 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Tasty Biscuits View Post
What's the difference in the validity of Shero's list (or any other GM's list) and of the list of some scouting service?


Hint: The answer is nothing, actually.
That's basically my point.

I get crucified for not liking the pick by the "In Shero We Trust" crowd because literally every scouting service had Grigs and Fors ranked higher that DP (not to mention the other NHL GMs that were laughing at the pick after the draft). Just because Shero liked DP doesn't mean everyone else is wrong.

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03-14-2013, 01:53 PM
  #123
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Pierre McGuire had an orgasm when they made the pick that counts for something right?

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03-14-2013, 02:12 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
That's basically my point.

I get crucified for not liking the pick by the "In Shero We Trust" crowd because literally every scouting service had Grigs and Fors ranked higher that DP (not to mention the other NHL GMs that were laughing at the pick after the draft). Just because Shero liked DP doesn't mean everyone else is wrong.
And just because some lists had Forsberg higher doesn't mean you and them are right either.

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03-14-2013, 02:30 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Tasty Biscuits View Post
And just because some lists had Forsberg higher doesn't mean you and them are right either.
Which is why I don't belittle people who support the pick, unlike some here (not a shot at you).

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