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Jake Gardiner for a # 1 centre?

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Old
03-12-2013, 03:31 PM
  #126
morrielly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoLeafsGo96 View Post
You won't find a single Leafs fan that believes Jake shouldn't be up in the NHL right now. He's ready. Management has realized it, and so has the media (Dreger for example, keeps citing on the radio that he's ready. It's a waiver game now).

The issue for Jake right now is in order to come up, someone has to go down. There aren't any realistic options to go down other than maybe Kostka and Holzer. Both of which I believe need to pass through waivers. They just re-signed Holzer, and Kostka has been solid all year. Nothing special, but asset management wise, the team doesn't want to lose a potential asset, even if what they would bring back isn't exactly special.

It's a waiting game now. If the team was playing differently, Gardiner would be up. But right now, with the team playing really well considering what they have, there is no rush.


And with that all being said, Jake Gardiner will not be traded.

not to mention getting to play 25+ minutes a game getting coached by dallas eakins (great developmental coach). that definitely can't hurt

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Old
03-12-2013, 03:36 PM
  #127
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I know Leafs fans think Jake Gardiner is some hot commodity, but he's not. Young, potential stud d-men do have tons of value... but Jake Gardiner isn't one yet. not even close and cannot be valued as one

In fact, there are probably 30+ young d-man who are around his age and playing well in the NHL (not the AHL)...all of whom would fetch a much bigger return.

To gauge a player's trade value, you have to look at comparable guys at their position in their age range. Not a ton of dominant, all star, 28 year old power #1 centers out there. Hence, Ryan Getzlaf has tons of value.

There are a ton of young quality D in the league right now, and Gardiner isn't even close to the top 25. If a team really was willing to trade a top 6 forward for a young d-man, they would look to just about every other team in the league first, most of whom have better guys to target than Gardiner.


Here is a list compiled from a thread over the winter...there are probably even guys missing from this but these guys would all be valued higher than Gardiner for teams looking to trade a top forward for a young d man:

Erik Karlsson (22)
Kevin Shattenkirk (23)
Alex Petrangelo (22)
Victor Hedman (22)
Tyler Myers (22)
Michael Del Zotto (22)
Oliver Ekman-Larson (21)
Drew Doughty (23)
Cam Fowler (21)
Slava Voynov (22)
PK Subban (23)
Dimitri Kulikov (22)
Adam Larsson (20)
John Carlson (23)
Erik Gudbranson (22)
Justin Faulk (20)
John Moore (22)
Ryan Murray (19)
Dougie Hamilton (19)
Ryan McDonough (22)
Travis Hamonic (22)
Karl Alzner (24)
John Carlson (24)
Justin Schultz (22)
Zach Bogosian (22)
Roman Josi (22)
Ryan McDonagh (23)
Jared Spurgeon (23)
Slava Voynov (22)
Jonas Brodin (22)
Travis Hamonic (22)
Tim Erixon (22)
Cody Goloubef (23)

This is not to say Gardiner isn't good or won't develop into a great NHL player. He still can/will. But if you are talking about right now, I don't see how he has that much value when you look at the talent at the d position in his age group


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Old
03-12-2013, 03:40 PM
  #128
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STOP! Just stop.

Jake Gardiner isn't going anywhere. Capiche?

Any trade for a 1C would be a ridiculous overpayment from the Leafs, so much so that it simply isn't worth it, and everyone knows it. That's why Leafs fans offer up junk and everyone else underrates our prospects. The Leafs will not trade for a 1C unless there's some unusual circumstance on the other end (i.e. O'Reilly).

We have to draft a 1C -- end of story.

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Old
03-12-2013, 03:41 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
I know Leafs fans think Jake Gardiner is some hot commodity, but he's not. Young, potential stud d-men do have tons of value... but Jake Gardiner isn't one. not even close

In fact, there are probably 30+ young d-man who are around his age and playing well in the NHL (not the AHL)...all of whom would fetch a much bigger return.

To gauge a player's trade value, you have to look at comparable guys at their position in their age range. Not a ton of dominant, all star, 28 year old power #1 centers out there. Hence, Ryan Getzlaf has tons of value.

There are a ton of young quality D in the league right now, and Gardiner isn't even close to the top 25. If a team really was willing to trade a top 6 forward for a young d-man, they would look to just about every other team in the league first, most of whom have better guys to target than Gardiner.


Here is a list compiled from a thread over the winter...there are probably even guys missing from this but these guys would all be valued higher than Gardiner for teams looking to trade a top forward for a young d man:

Erik Karlsson (22)
Kevin Shattenkirk (23)
Alex Petrangelo (22)
Victor Hedman (22)
Tyler Myers (22)
Michael Del Zotto (22)
Oliver Ekman-Larson (21)
Drew Doughty (23)
Cam Fowler (21)
Slava Voynov (22)
PK Subban (23)
Dimitri Kulikov (22)
Adam Larsson (20)
John Carlson (23)
Erik Gudbranson (22)
Justin Faulk (20)
John Moore (22)
Ryan Murray (19)
Dougie Hamilton (19)
Ryan McDonough (22)
Travis Hamonic (22)
Karl Alzner (24)
John Carlson (24)
Justin Schultz (22)
Zach Bogosian (22)
Roman Josi (22)
Ryan McDonagh (23)
Jared Spurgeon (23)
Slava Voynov (22)
Jonas Brodin (22)
Travis Hamonic (22)
Good post. Point taken.

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Old
03-12-2013, 03:43 PM
  #130
morrielly
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Obviously Boston would add if it were Reilly for Spooner.

But for Gardiner? Im not so sure. Im just trying to get a feel for his current situation.

Spooner isnt ready for the NHL quite yet IMO. I think next season he will make the team out of camp, he's "on the cusp". I do see his trade value similar to that of Gardiners'. If Toronto needs centermen, I can't see why a guy like Spooner wouldnt interest them. He's highly skilled, put up points in junior, and continues to do so in the AHL. He has potential.
thats nice and all but you said you wouldn't consider trading spooner for rielly/gardiner . anyways, i'm not going to act like i watch him too much but how's his defensive game? where do you see him playing with the bruins?

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Old
03-12-2013, 03:50 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
I know Leafs fans think Jake Gardiner is some hot commodity, but he's not. Young, potential stud d-men do have tons of value... but Jake Gardiner isn't one yet. not even close and cannot be valued as one

In fact, there are probably 30+ young d-man who are around his age and playing well in the NHL (not the AHL)...all of whom would fetch a much bigger return.

To gauge a player's trade value, you have to look at comparable guys at their position in their age range. Not a ton of dominant, all star, 28 year old power #1 centers out there. Hence, Ryan Getzlaf has tons of value.

There are a ton of young quality D in the league right now, and Gardiner isn't even close to the top 25. If a team really was willing to trade a top 6 forward for a young d-man, they would look to just about every other team in the league first, most of whom have better guys to target than Gardiner.


Here is a list compiled from a thread over the winter...there are probably even guys missing from this but these guys would all be valued higher than Gardiner for teams looking to trade a top forward for a young d man:

Erik Karlsson (22)
Kevin Shattenkirk (23)
Alex Petrangelo (22)
Victor Hedman (22)
Tyler Myers (22)
Michael Del Zotto (22)
Oliver Ekman-Larson (21)
Drew Doughty (23)
Cam Fowler (21)
Slava Voynov (22)
PK Subban (23)
Dimitri Kulikov (22)
Adam Larsson (20)
John Carlson (23)
Erik Gudbranson (22)
Justin Faulk (20)
John Moore (22)
Ryan Murray (19)
Dougie Hamilton (19)
Ryan McDonough (22)
Travis Hamonic (22)
Karl Alzner (24)
John Carlson (24)
Justin Schultz (22)
Zach Bogosian (22)
Roman Josi (22)
Ryan McDonagh (23)
Jared Spurgeon (23)
Slava Voynov (22)
Jonas Brodin (22)
Travis Hamonic (22)
Tim Erixon (22)
Cody Goloubef (23)

This is not to say Gardiner isn't good or won't develop into a great NHL player. He still can/will. But if you are talking about right now, I don't see how he has that much value when you look at the talent at the d position in his age group
You did good kid. You did good

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Old
03-12-2013, 03:57 PM
  #132
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Dang that is an impressive list of high end young dmen.

What was happening 10 years ago that all these talented young players chose to be defensemen (rather than centres)?

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Old
03-12-2013, 04:00 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
No chance Gardiner, or even Gardiner+, gets a legit 1C, unless that + is a huge valued asset(s) . Gardiner is in the AHL with guys like Kostka chosen to play in the NHL over him. He doesn't have much value right now. The Leafs would be best served hanging onto him and see if he can get back into the NHL. Though I could see something around Gardiner for Gagner, or Gardiner+ for Ribeiro.
I always love when people like this try to give their expert opinion on the leaf players and whats going on in that organization.

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03-12-2013, 04:06 PM
  #134
Phion Keneuf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
I know Leafs fans think Jake Gardiner is some hot commodity, but he's not. Young, potential stud d-men do have tons of value... but Jake Gardiner isn't one yet. not even close and cannot be valued as one

In fact, there are probably 30+ young d-man who are around his age and playing well in the NHL (not the AHL)...all of whom would fetch a much bigger return.

To gauge a player's trade value, you have to look at comparable guys at their position in their age range. Not a ton of dominant, all star, 28 year old power #1 centers out there. Hence, Ryan Getzlaf has tons of value.

There are a ton of young quality D in the league right now, and Gardiner isn't even close to the top 25. If a team really was willing to trade a top 6 forward for a young d-man, they would look to just about every other team in the league first, most of whom have better guys to target than Gardiner.


Here is a list compiled from a thread over the winter...there are probably even guys missing from this but these guys would all be valued higher than Gardiner for teams looking to trade a top forward for a young d man:

Erik Karlsson (22)
Kevin Shattenkirk (23)
Alex Petrangelo (22)
Victor Hedman (22)
Tyler Myers (22)
Michael Del Zotto (22)
Oliver Ekman-Larson (21)
Drew Doughty (23)
Cam Fowler (21)
Slava Voynov (22)
PK Subban (23)
Dimitri Kulikov (22)
Adam Larsson (20)
John Carlson (23)
Erik Gudbranson (22)
Justin Faulk (20)
John Moore (22)
Ryan Murray (19)
Dougie Hamilton (19)
Ryan McDonough (22)
Travis Hamonic (22)
Karl Alzner (24)
John Carlson (24)
Justin Schultz (22)
Zach Bogosian (22)
Roman Josi (22)
Ryan McDonagh (23)
Jared Spurgeon (23)
Slava Voynov (22)
Jonas Brodin (22)
Travis Hamonic (22)
Tim Erixon (22)
Cody Goloubef (23)

This is not to say Gardiner isn't good or won't develop into a great NHL player. He still can/will. But if you are talking about right now, I don't see how he has that much value when you look at the talent at the d position in his age group
LOL at some of those names

3 Blue Jackets?

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Old
03-12-2013, 04:09 PM
  #135
Kulemon
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Obviously Boston would add if it were Reilly for Spooner.

But for Gardiner? Im not so sure. Im just trying to get a feel for his current situation.

Spooner isnt ready for the NHL quite yet IMO. I think next season he will make the team out of camp, he's "on the cusp". I do see his trade value similar to that of Gardiners'. If Toronto needs centermen, I can't see why a guy like Spooner wouldnt interest them. He's highly skilled, put up points in junior, and continues to do so in the AHL. He has potential.
Just stop. Oh god your posts are just.....

Just stop...

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03-12-2013, 04:14 PM
  #136
Kulemon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
I know Leafs fans think Jake Gardiner is some hot commodity, but he's not. Young, potential stud d-men do have tons of value... but Jake Gardiner isn't one yet. not even close and cannot be valued as one

In fact, there are probably 30+ young d-man who are around his age and playing well in the NHL (not the AHL)...all of whom would fetch a much bigger return.

To gauge a player's trade value, you have to look at comparable guys at their position in their age range. Not a ton of dominant, all star, 28 year old power #1 centers out there. Hence, Ryan Getzlaf has tons of value.

There are a ton of young quality D in the league right now, and Gardiner isn't even close to the top 25. If a team really was willing to trade a top 6 forward for a young d-man, they would look to just about every other team in the league first, most of whom have better guys to target than Gardiner.


Here is a list compiled from a thread over the winter...there are probably even guys missing from this but these guys would all be valued higher than Gardiner for teams looking to trade a top forward for a young d man:

Erik Karlsson (22)
Kevin Shattenkirk (23)
Alex Petrangelo (22)
Victor Hedman (22)
Tyler Myers (22)
Michael Del Zotto (22)
Oliver Ekman-Larson (21)
Drew Doughty (23)
Cam Fowler (21)
Slava Voynov (22)
PK Subban (23)
Dimitri Kulikov (22)
Adam Larsson (20)
John Carlson (23)
Erik Gudbranson (22)
Justin Faulk (20)
John Moore (22)
Ryan Murray (19)
Dougie Hamilton (19)
Ryan McDonough (22)
Travis Hamonic (22)
Karl Alzner (24)
John Carlson (24)
Justin Schultz (22)
Zach Bogosian (22)
Roman Josi (22)
Ryan McDonagh (23)
Jared Spurgeon (23)
Slava Voynov (22)
Jonas Brodin (22)
Travis Hamonic (22)
Tim Erixon (22)
Cody Goloubef (23)

This is not to say Gardiner isn't good or won't develop into a great NHL player. He still can/will. But if you are talking about right now, I don't see how he has that much value when you look at the talent at the d position in his age group
I wouldn't trade Gardiner for atleast half those guys.

I hate these threads with all my heart. It pisses me right off. Why the hell are people even considering trading Jake Gardiner? He's a stud and we should actually keep him and keep developing him into a star that he has the potential to be. Not only that but why at people still desperately searching for a number 1 centre when we already have a great young player with number 1 C potential (Kadri) which is the most Gardiner could even get back in a trade at this current point in time!

Some people

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Old
03-12-2013, 04:14 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Kulemon View Post
Just stop. Oh god your posts are just.....

Just stop...
At least he has an argument. So far the response has been this isn't true. Explain to me why it isn't true. The way it looks to me, at this point, his argument is far more persuasive

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kulemon
I wouldn't trade Gardiner for atleast half those guys.
Which ones and why not?

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03-12-2013, 04:15 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Kulemon View Post
Just stop. Oh god your posts are just.....

Just stop...
Lol this

Not sure if people slept through last season or something, but based on their opinions about Gardiner it seems so.

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Old
03-12-2013, 04:15 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
LOL at some of those names

3 Blue Jackets?

which names? and are the bluejackets not allowed to have good prospects?
and are you sure you should be throwing stones?

the leafs havent made the playoffs since 2004.
columbus was there in 2009.

In terms of points per season over the past 5 years the Leafs prevail 3 seasons to 2 for Columbus.
and you're laughing at Columbus why?

if it werent for 25 games this year, you ARE Columbus.

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03-12-2013, 04:15 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
LOL at some of those names

3 Blue Jackets?
4.

Murray, Erixon, Moore, and Goloubef.

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03-12-2013, 04:16 PM
  #141
Phion Keneuf
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
At least he has an argument. So far the response has been this isn't true. Explain to me why it isn't true. The way it looks to me, at this point, his argument is far more persuasive
Did you watch Gardiner last season? Of course you didn't, you as well as the rest of these people in this thread

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03-12-2013, 04:17 PM
  #142
Phion Keneuf
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which names? and are the bluejackets not allowed to have good prospects?
and are you sure you should be throwing stones?

the leafs havent made the playoffs since 2004.
columbus was there in 2009.

In terms of points per season over the past 5 years the Leafs prevail 3 seasons to 2 for Columbus.
and you're laughing at Columbus why?

if it werent for 25 games this year, you ARE Columbus.
Ya, I am Columbus. Great to hear.

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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
4.

Murray, Erixon, Moore, and Goloubef.
Only Murray should be on that list.

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Old
03-12-2013, 04:20 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
Erik Karlsson (22)
Kevin Shattenkirk (23)
Alex Petrangelo (22)
Victor Hedman (22)
Tyler Myers (22)
Michael Del Zotto (22)
Oliver Ekman-Larson (21)
Drew Doughty (23)
Cam Fowler (21)
Slava Voynov (22)
PK Subban (23)
Dimitri Kulikov (22)
Adam Larsson (20)
John Carlson (23)
Erik Gudbranson (22)
Justin Faulk (20)
John Moore (22)
Ryan Murray (19)
Dougie Hamilton (19)
Ryan McDonough (22)
Travis Hamonic (22)
Karl Alzner (24)
John Carlson (24)
Justin Schultz (22)
Zach Bogosian (22)
Roman Josi (22)
Ryan McDonagh (23)
Jared Spurgeon (23)
Slava Voynov (22)
Jonas Brodin (22)
Travis Hamonic (22)
Tim Erixon (22)
Cody Goloubef (23)
I kind of agree with the premise of your post but some problems with the list.

Spurgeon, Erixon, Golubef, Moore shouldn't be on this list and at the moment neither should Ryan Murray.

Voynov, Hamonic, and Carlson are on the list twice.

Some of the ages are off (e.g. Brodin).

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03-12-2013, 04:21 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
Did you watch Gardiner last season? Of course you didn't, you as well as the rest of these people in this thread
Did you watch Moore? Or Erixon? Or any of them? Yes I did watch Gardiner last year when he was with the Leafs. He looked good. But apparently he wasn't good enough to crack the lineup this year. Listen, if this is all asset management, and Gardiner could improve the team that much compared to Kostka or Holzer or whomever, why wouldn't the Leafs trade that defenseman to a team that needs a player and then improve their team and get something else?

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03-12-2013, 04:22 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
Only Murray should be on that list.
well you make a persuasive argument but im going to disagree, they all belong on that list.

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03-12-2013, 04:23 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Kulemon View Post
I wouldn't trade Gardiner for atleast half those guys.

I hate these threads with all my heart. It pisses me right off. Why the hell are people even considering trading Jake Gardiner? He's a stud and we should actually keep him and keep developing him into a star that he has the potential to be. Not only that but why at people still desperately searching for a number 1 centre when we already have a great young player with number 1 C potential (Kadri) which is the most Gardiner could even get back in a trade at this current point in time!

Some people
If you wouldn't trade Gardiner, that's fine. That's your opinion. There are certain CBJ guys I would never want traded either, it's part of being a fan. But - this thread was suggesting Jake Gardiner could fetch a number one center in a trade, or as part of a package for a number one center. That is ridiculous.

Let's say the Avs do decide to trade Ryan O'Reilly (a #1 center) next year and they want a young potential #1 dman in return.

Do you really think Gardiner or Gardiner + would be the best the Avs could do, or fair/top value?

Why would the Avs, or any other team willing to trade a top offensive piece, target a guy like Gardiner, when like I've shown, there are a ton of young D-guys out there that have already proven themselves at the NHL level.

Do you think the Pens would have actually accepted Jake Gardiner in return for Jordan Staal? That was the the most recent example of a young center being dealt, and he got Sutter, the #8 overall pick, AND a prospect. That's a package worth lot more than Jake Gardiner.

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03-12-2013, 04:25 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
Did you watch Moore? Or Erixon? Or any of them? Yes I did watch Gardiner last year when he was with the Leafs. He looked good. But apparently he wasn't good enough to crack the lineup this year. Listen, if this is all asset management, and Gardiner could improve the team that much compared to Kostka or Holzer or whomever, why wouldn't the Leafs trade that defenseman to a team that needs a player and then improve their team and get something else?
Moore and Erixon are good players but I don't believe they have the same value as Gardiner going forward. Moore is solid but doesn't have the same upside and IMO Erixon has always been a notch below as a prospect. Anyone acquiring Gardiner right now is still going to have to pay for his offensive upside that he showed last year even if he were to wind up turning into JM Liles part two.

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03-12-2013, 04:25 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
Did you watch Gardiner last season? Of course you didn't, you as well as the rest of these people in this thread
I did. He looked good.

What I'm saying is, there are many guys his age, or even younger, who have look just as good if not better at the NHL level and have stuck there. Thus, their value is higher than his.

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03-12-2013, 04:29 PM
  #149
Sterling31
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The main thing. Leaf fans are confident that Gardiner will make this team and walk around NHL calibre players with ease in the Offensive zone, his control with the puck draws players to him, and all of us cant wait for him to be working on the same sheet of ice as pros with similar IQ (similar to Rielly); Rather then the AHL lifers down at Ricoh.

Jake has said himself that the AHL is a harder game to play (he isn't the first to say it) and it is only a matter of time before he is awing Leaf Nation with his creativity and offensive instinct.

List players all day, he is ours, we are keeping him - and are well aware of his potential, no matter your lecturing.

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03-12-2013, 04:32 PM
  #150
Kulemon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
At least he has an argument. So far the response has been this isn't true. Explain to me why it isn't true. The way it looks to me, at this point, his argument is far more persuasive



Which ones and why not?
Leaf fans are just as confused as you all. He started off in the NHL right away but showed he wasnt what he was playing like before his concussion so they sent him down to the AHL. he played for awhile and Eakins (Marlies coach) has been praising him for awhile now saying he's 100%, been their best defenseman, dominant, etc.

He was arguably our best defenseman last year. Carlyle played him 23 minutes a night and he had 13 points in 18 games (I think?) under Carlyle. So you'd think he would be back up no? We are all confused and there are many theories. Carlyle's stubbornness to change anything is one. I mean hell, Liles, a very good D man is sitting in the press box regularly while Kostka and Holzer struggle nightly. Another theory is its just all numbers. The leafs have too many D men up right now and all of them would have to go through waivers to get sent down so until there is a trade, he can't come up. Apparently Nonis is working on it.

But yeah, we're all confused. Make no mistake though, it is NOT because of Gardiner struggling or anything like that.

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