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Jake Gardiner for a # 1 centre?

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Old
03-12-2013, 04:35 PM
  #151
IHeartZherdev
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Originally Posted by dannyboy8920 View Post
The main thing. Leaf fans are confident that Gardiner will make this team and walk around NHL calibre players with ease in the Offensive zone, his control with the puck draws players to him, and all of us cant wait for him to be working on the same sheet of ice as pros with similar IQ; Rather then the AHL lifers down at Ricoh.

Jake has said himself that the AHL is a harder game to play (he isn't the first to say it) and it is only a matter of time before he is awing Leaf Nation with his creativity and offensive instinct.

List players all day, he is ours, we are keeping him - we all are well aware of his potential, no matter your lecturing.
I don't get why you and Leafs fans are so defensive. I never suggested the Leafs should trade him. This is a thread about what his value would be, if he was traded. The title of the thread is "Value of: Jake Gardiner for a # 1 centre?" and I was just responding that is NOT his current value.

All I did was put him in context with other players at his position in his age group. That is how value is determined. When Montreal is negotiating with Subban, they didn't say "well fans love him he is a future #1 OMG" they compare him to Del Zotto and other guys his age and their contracts to determine his market value.

If Leafs fans want to be high on their prospects, I have no problem with that. But you can't realistically act like Gardiner is currently at the level of the guys I listed (or at least most) when he is playing in the AHL and those guys are established contributors at the NHL level.

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03-12-2013, 04:35 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by dannyboy8920 View Post
The main thing. Leaf fans are confident that Gardiner will make this team and walk around NHL calibre players with ease in the Offensive zone, his control with the puck draws players to him, and all of us cant wait for him to be working on the same sheet of ice as pros with similar IQ (similar to Rielly); Rather then the AHL lifers down at Ricoh.

Jake has said himself that the AHL is a harder game to play (he isn't the first to say it) and it is only a matter of time before he is awing Leaf Nation with his creativity and offensive instinct.

List players all day, he is ours, we are keeping him - and are well aware of his potential, no matter your lecturing.
Pretty much this. Gardiner's skating and poise in combination with his playmaking ability sets him apart and makes me confident he will be a star. He got 30 points in 72 games last year but he was struggling offensively the whole first half of the seasons. He really turned it on that second half and near the end of the season where he was beginning to look dominant (especially those last 5 or so games).

Kid is a stud.

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03-12-2013, 04:37 PM
  #153
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Nonis really needs to move a defenseman.

Gardiner last season entered his first NHL training camp and won a spot. This year he was concussed during the shortened training camp and his spot was taken.

With his demotion Gardiner is getting the Kadri treatment from other fans. I'd be much happier with the team if Gardiner was up shoving it down the throats of everyone, just like Kadri has done.

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03-12-2013, 04:40 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
I don't get why you and Leafs fans are so defensive. I never suggested the Leafs should trade him. This is a thread about what his value would be, if he was traded.

All I did was put him in context with other players at his position in his age group. That is how value is determined. When Montreal is negotiating with Subban, they didn't say "well fans love him he is a future #1 OMG" they compare him to Del Zotto and other guys his age and their contracts to determine his market value.

If Leafs fans want to be high on their prospects, I have no problem with that. But you can't realistically act like Gardiner is currently at the level of the guys I listed (or at least most) when he is playing in the AHL and those guys are established contributors at the NHL level.
I never said he was at the level as any of those guys, and I am not about to argue whether he is or not. And I wasn't calling you out directly, it was more of a general post, which is why i did not quote.

Your opinion is fine, But it is the people that are trying to paint the picture that he is a write off because he is stuck down in the AHL. Which seems like a broken record, over and over explaining the reason for his reluctance to make our NHL club. When it is easy to jump to conclusion about production, injury etc. There is more to it that most Leaf fans even know, im sure. But it is quite clear that his production and injury status is the least of our worries.

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Old
03-12-2013, 04:46 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
I kind of agree with the premise of your post but some problems with the list.

Spurgeon, Erixon, Golubef, Moore shouldn't be on this list and at the moment neither should Ryan Murray.

Voynov, Hamonic, and Carlson are on the list twice.

Some of the ages are off (e.g. Brodin).
Nick Leddy?

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03-12-2013, 04:46 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
If you wouldn't trade Gardiner, that's fine. That's your opinion. There are certain CBJ guys I would never want traded either, it's part of being a fan. But - this thread was suggesting Jake Gardiner could fetch a number one center in a trade, or as part of a package for a number one center. That is ridiculous.

Let's say the Avs do decide to trade Ryan O'Reilly (a #1 center) next year and they want a young potential #1 dman in return.

Do you really think Gardiner or Gardiner + would be the best the Avs could do, or fair/top value?

Why would the Avs, or any other team willing to trade a top offensive piece, target a guy like Gardiner, when like I've shown, there are a ton of young D-guys out there that have already proven themselves at the NHL level.

Do you think the Pens would have actually accepted Jake Gardiner in return for Jordan Staal? That was the the most recent example of a young center being dealt, and he got Sutter, the #8 overall pick, AND a prospect. That's a package worth lot more than Jake Gardiner.

Ryan O'Reilly a 1C.

Rangers offer B. Richie+one of our better prospects for Gardiner, McClement, Franson/Liles.

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03-12-2013, 04:57 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Kris Chreider View Post

Ryan O'Reilly a 1C.

Rangers offer B. Richie+one of our better prospects for Gardiner, McClement, Franson/Liles.
Kreider as the better prospect

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03-12-2013, 04:59 PM
  #158
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Kreider as the better prospect
I was thinking more of Skjei or Hrvik++.

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03-12-2013, 05:03 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Chreider View Post

Ryan O'Reilly a 1C.

Rangers offer B. Richie+one of our better prospects for Gardiner, McClement, Franson/Liles.
Well, Ryan O'Reilly is a guy that actually might be traded and we've already seen one team that valued him at the 1C level. a 33 year old Brad Richards with an insane contract is unmoveable unless he's bought out

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03-12-2013, 05:05 PM
  #160
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Gardiner can prob get a young second like C like Stepan. I'm not saying rangers do this as they already have D depth, I'm just saying that's the percieved value of gardiner right now. Maybe a little more but can't imagine a huge amount.

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03-12-2013, 05:12 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Gardiner can prob get a young second like C like Stepan. I'm not saying rangers do this as they already have D depth, I'm just saying that's the percieved value of gardiner right now. Maybe a little more but can't imagine a huge amount.
That's a good one. That or a Drew Shore type.

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03-12-2013, 05:16 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Gardiner can prob get a young second like C like Stepan. I'm not saying rangers do this as they already have D depth, I'm just saying that's the percieved value of gardiner right now. Maybe a little more but can't imagine a huge amount.
No he can't. The NYR wouldn't even part with Stepan for RICK NASH. Yet, Jake Gardiner is fair value?

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03-12-2013, 05:22 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Wondercarrot View Post
how was it trolling?
you're the one trying to trade an good AHL defenceman for a #1 center.
A guy suggests spooner, a good AHL player, a highly rated prospect who was the last cut at Bruins camp and is 2 years younger than gardiner.

How is that not a reasonable deal?
you may not want spooner for other reasons, if you are looking for a big center etc. but how is that not a reasonable trade? let alone calling it trolling.
THIS.

Toronto prospect is apparently >>>>>>>>>>>>> Equivalent prospect from another club

The only difference of these players on HF's rankings a 1 letter drop in probability of success and Spooner is two years younger.

Trolling is to think a prospect like Gardiner could get a 1st liner center, let alone a 2nd line center... let alone an NHL ready top six player in any position.

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03-12-2013, 05:23 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
No he can't. The NYR wouldn't even part with Stepan for RICK NASH. Yet, Jake Gardiner is fair value?
We dont know that. In regards to Nash... And if he were, it was part of a package.

The problem with getting a Stepan for Gardiner is very rarely do you ever see trades made young player for young player. That's why the JVR trade was total craziness by the Flyers. Value wise, it's there. If the Rangers were after a defenseman Gardiner's age, it's fair. Problem is, they're not. Just as Florida would probably have no need to move Shore for him.

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03-12-2013, 05:24 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
No he can't. The NYR wouldn't even part with Stepan for RICK NASH. Yet, Jake Gardiner is fair value?
Exactly. If we won't move something for Rick Nash it's pretty much untouchable.

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03-12-2013, 05:28 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Petes2424 View Post
We dont know that. In regards to Nash... And if he were, it was part of a package.

The problem with getting a Stepan for Gardiner is very rarely do you ever see trades made young player for young player. That's why the JVR trade was total craziness by the Flyers. Value wise, it's there. If the Rangers were after a defenseman Gardiner's age, it's fair. Problem is, they're not. Just as Florida would probably have no need to move Shore for him.
No it's not. Stepan has already produced and been consistent at the NHL level. Gardiner has not. So, if say, the Rangers were to offer up Stepan and wanted a young D man in return - fair value would be a guy who has also produced and been consitent at the NHL level in addition to having upside. Like the guys I listed.

We saw Kassian dealt for Hodgeson last year. At the time, both players were highly rated prospect who hadn't had a major impact in the NHL yet. That could be Gardiner's value, traded for a center prospect on the verge of NHL readiness. Not an established guy like Stepan.

But no, Zach Kassian would not have been be fair value for Derek Stepan or a guy who had already established themselves.

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03-12-2013, 05:31 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by Kulemon View Post
He was arguably our best defenseman last year.
No, not close.

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03-12-2013, 05:39 PM
  #168
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Haha that actually made me lol you honestly think the avs would trade there number 1 centre whose producing at over a ppg and only getting better. He's there franchise player.
It is amazing what a hot start/poor start can do for your HF value. I mean just amazing.

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03-12-2013, 05:40 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by IHeartZherdev View Post
No it's not. Stepan has already produced and been consistent at the NHL level. Gardiner has not. So, if say, the Rangers were to offer up Stepan and wanted a young D man in return - fair value would be a guy who has also produced and been consitent at the NHL level in addition to having upside. Like the guys I listed.

We saw Kassian dealt for Hodgeson last year. At the time, both players were highly rated prospect who hadn't had a major impact in the NHL yet. That could be Gardiner's value, traded for a center prospect on the verge of NHL readiness. Not an established guy like Stepan.
I agree with most of what you said. Value wise though, people are undervaluing Gardiner because he's playing in the AHL. To many teams rush guys to often and we see it daily. I equate him to Brenden Smith or Slava Voynov somewhat value wise. He's a year younger and both of those guys this time last year, were in similar situation. Doing their time in the AHL due to a numbers game. That doesnt take away his value. On another team, Smith plays in the NHL from day one. Same can be said of Gardiner. If he's not going to get the minutes at the NHL level, than it's the best thing for him to get those minutes in the AHL. Obviously if the Leafs werent playing as well as they are, he'd be up.

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03-12-2013, 05:40 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Mystifo View Post
It is amazing what a hot start/poor start can do for your HF value. I mean just amazing.
It's even more amazing what being drafted by the Leafs or Red Wings can do for your HF value

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03-12-2013, 05:46 PM
  #171
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Gagne for gardiner

Interesting article today suggested carlyle not liking the paying style of gardiner instead settling for more tough stay at home dmen rather than finesse players lie gardiner. Interesting that Carlyle was coaching Anaheim when gardiner left for beauchmin. Makes for an interesting possibility that gardiner could be in play. Oilers need dmen and might not be able to afford. Gagne for gardiner and bozak seems fair. Gardiner has played great in Hal and seemed right at home in nhl last year.mthis kid will be great.

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03-12-2013, 05:48 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by LetsBeReality View Post
THIS.

Toronto prospect is apparently >>>>>>>>>>>>> Equivalent prospect from another club

The only difference of these players on HF's rankings a 1 letter drop in probability of success and Spooner is two years younger.

Trolling is to think a prospect like Gardiner could get a 1st liner center, let alone a 2nd line center... let alone an NHL ready top six player in any position.
As much as leaf fans may overvalue prospects leaf haters are just as guilty of undervaluing them.

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03-12-2013, 05:50 PM
  #173
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Leafs fans overrate Gardiner so much. It's getting to be a bit much

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Old
03-12-2013, 05:52 PM
  #174
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Gardiner and Grabovski for Wisniewski and Johansen?

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03-12-2013, 05:53 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Mantooth View Post
As much as leaf fans may overvalue prospects leaf haters are just as guilty of undervaluing them.
No, the problem is anyone that doesn't over-value a Leaf prospect is somehow labeled a "leaf hater"

If you're a Leafs fan, you have every right to be excited about him. But when assessing his value, it's important to look what's out there. As my list proved, it's not like there is a shortage of good young d men in the game right now. And, as my list also proved, there are a lot of guys Gardiner's age who have already established themselves at the NHL level, thus, making him less valuable. A 22 year old playing well in the AHL is not a hot commodity around the league when there is this many great 23 and under players lighting up scoresheets and logging big minutes.

That doesn't mean he won't be good at some point. But if you are looking across the NHL and are judging which D-men ages 19-23 have the most value, Gardiner is towards the end of the pack.


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