HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Edmonton Oilers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Gagner NEEDS to stay an Oiler . . .

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-14-2013, 07:27 AM
  #201
Vagabond
Registered User
 
Vagabond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,988
vCash: 596
Send a message via MSN to Vagabond
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
I really hope we don't ink him to a giant sized contract he ends up not living up to.

Pisani and Horcoff NEEDED to stay too remember (lol) and we paid dearly for those deals among others and they never were able to replicate their contract years.
The two players you've mentioned tho are no wheres near Gagners ilk. I don't think anybody is hoping for Gags to sign a 6m+ contract here. Anywhere from a 4.5m(doubtful) to a 5.5m (Decent) cap hit would work.

What I'd do seeing how he's in RFA status still is; sign him to a 5.5m 1 year deal to see if he can repeat these numbers in a full season. Then sign him to an extended contract. I like Gagner's game and would like him to remain an Oiler. If the 'right' trade can be made that improves this team, then obviously you make that trade.

I'd rather see Hemsky go with a prospect and a draft pick to get a meaty power forward in the mix than giving up on a talented young 23 year old 2nd line center!

Vagabond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 08:46 AM
  #202
Replacement
Checked out
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hiking
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
I really hope we don't ink him to a giant sized contract he ends up not living up to.

Pisani and Horcoff NEEDED to stay too remember (lol) and we paid dearly for those deals among others and they never were able to replicate their contract years.
With all due respect, and its fair to mention, you would've traded Gagner for Kyle Turris a dozen times and said so, so its fair to say you're chronically undervaluating Gagner over time. Consistently I would say.

Thats kind of the dynamic though. The people saying Gagner wouldn't live up to a contract are the ones that wouldn't have him here in the first place. Which is helpful to denote as it clarifies the discussion.

Replacement is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 08:59 AM
  #203
nightfighter
Registered User
 
nightfighter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,659
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagabond View Post
The two players you've mentioned tho are no wheres near Gagners ilk. I don't think anybody is hoping for Gags to sign a 6m+ contract here. Anywhere from a 4.5m(doubtful) to a 5.5m (Decent) cap hit would work.

What I'd do seeing how he's in RFA status still is; sign him to a 5.5m 1 year deal to see if he can repeat these numbers in a full season. Then sign him to an extended contract. I like Gagner's game and would like him to remain an Oiler. If the 'right' trade can be made that improves this team, then obviously you make that trade.

I'd rather see Hemsky go with a prospect and a draft pick to get a meaty power forward in the mix than giving up on a talented young 23 year old 2nd line center!
The problem with signing him for only one more year or other short term contracts is that you may very well endup paying more down the road. Not to mention that they already gave him a short term contract once "to see if he could prove himself" and I don't think Gagner would take that lightly if they asked him to prove himself again.

Oilers need to decide now if Gagner is part of the future core of this team and either sign him long term at slightly reduced dollars or trade him and get good value. Don't string him along because it will end up badly for both team and player.

nightfighter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 09:00 AM
  #204
CornKicker
Tied with Lander G's
 
CornKicker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,446
vCash: 50
here is some interesting stats from someone i would say compares very close to Gagner's upside.


His Dad (ststa came out weird, GP-G-A-P

New York Rangers
NHL 38 6 6 12
1985-86 New Haven Nighthawks
AHL 16 10 11 21
1985-86 New York Rangers
NHL 32 4 6 10
1986-87 New Haven Nighthawks
AHL 56 22 41 63
1986-87 New York Rangers
NHL 10 1 4 5
1987-88 Kalamazoo Wings
IHL 14 16 10 26
1987-88 Minnesota North Stars
NHL 51 8 11 19
1988-89 Kalamazoo Wings
IHL 1 0 1 1
1988-89 Minnesota North Stars
NHL 75 35 43 78
1989-90 Minnesota North Stars
NHL 79 40 38 78
1990-91 Minnesota North Stars
NHL 73 40 42 82
1991-92 Minnesota North Stars
NHL 78 31 40 71
1992-93 Minnesota North Stars
NHL 84 33 43 76
1993-94 Dallas Stars
NHL 76 32 29 61
1994-95 Dallas Stars
NHL 48 14 28 42

CornKicker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 09:15 AM
  #205
Replacement
Checked out
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hiking
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nightfighter View Post
The problem with signing him for only one more year or other short term contracts is that you may very well endup paying more down the road. Not to mention that they already gave him a short term contract once "to see if he could prove himself" and I don't think Gagner would take that lightly if they asked him to prove himself again.

Oilers need to decide now if Gagner is part of the future core of this team and either sign him long term at slightly reduced dollars or trade him and get good value. Don't string him along because it will end up badly for both team and player.
Yeah, seriously, "show me"

followed by...

"OK, done, in spades, I'm your top producing forward, now what?"

I don't think Tambo could even make a short term contract offer at this point given whats transpired.

With a front loaded contract (I thought the NHL was trying to do away with these but I'm not a capologist) and a 5yr contract theres still very little risk even at serious dollars. If its front loaded its a tradeable contract should the team wish to do that.

Replacement is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 09:21 AM
  #206
CornKicker
Tied with Lander G's
 
CornKicker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,446
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Yeah, seriously, "show me"

followed by...

"OK, done, in spades, I'm your top producing forward, now what?"

I don't think Tambo could even make a short term contract offer at this point given whats transpired.

With a front loaded contract (I thought the NHL was trying to do away with these but I'm not a capologist) and a 5yr contract theres still very little risk even at serious dollars. If its front loaded its a tradeable contract should the team wish to do that.
exactly, this was gagners show me year, they gave him a one year deal and he is doing exactly what has been asked of him. you cant reneg on that now and say "ok well you did what we wanted you to but how about another 1 year deal to prove you can do it again". it doesnt work that way. sam has improved every year he has been here and i fully believe he will keep improving with experience. I dont think it is a coincidence that every winger that plays with sam is scoring. also you cant be handing out long term deals to everyone around him and then turn to him and ask for another short deal. Especially when he is outscoring EVERYONE.

CornKicker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 09:50 AM
  #207
dem
Registered User
 
dem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,300
vCash: 500
Too bad Gagner's "show me" season is a 48 gamer..

dem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 10:22 AM
  #208
Hoogaar23
Registered User
 
Hoogaar23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,567
vCash: 500
Nevermind that Gagner's having a better season than any of our kids, but Gagner's 2nd season >>> RNH 2nd season, and Gagner's 3rd season >>> Eberle's 3rd season.

This should bring them out of the woodwork

The list of 6 year veteran 23 year old NHLers is small - very small. People like to point to the fact he has has X years in the NHL. Fact is, he had those years at 18, 19, 20, etc...still a kid. He's becoming a man now and the results are showing that. People need to let go of the hate and embrace this talented player with as much heart as anyone on the team.

Hoogaar23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 10:34 AM
  #209
Moose Coleman
Registered User
 
Moose Coleman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 4,016
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundwave View Post
I really hope we don't ink him to a giant sized contract he ends up not living up to.
Remind me: did you say this when they signed Eberle to his whopper of a deal?

Moose Coleman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 10:57 AM
  #210
Ol' Jase
PLAYOFFS??
 
Ol' Jase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,444
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
Remind me: did you say this when they signed Eberle to his whopper of a deal?
How is Eberle not living up to his contract?

Ol' Jase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 10:57 AM
  #211
Up the Irons
Registered User
 
Up the Irons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,789
vCash: 408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 View Post
Nevermind that Gagner's having a better season than any of our kids, but Gagner's 2nd season >>> RNH 2nd season, and Gagner's 3rd season >>> Eberle's 3rd season.

This should bring them out of the woodwork

The list of 6 year veteran 23 year old NHLers is small - very small. People like to point to the fact he has has X years in the NHL. Fact is, he had those years at 18, 19, 20, etc...still a kid. He's becoming a man now and the results are showing that. People need to let go of the hate and embrace this talented player with as much heart as anyone on the team.
that's not necessarily true. remember, if this were a normal year, we would only be 1/3 thru. RNH has been coming on lately, and it is reasonable to say that he would have 50+ points in an 82 game season. He had a tough 20 games. that is not a brutal season. Not to mention, his D is much better than Gagner's.

that said, they should still keep Gagner, simple because he is good. I've said it before, i would only trade him for a good top pairing D (like Meyer)), a perfect 2C (like Couturier or Staal), or a good, proven starting goalie (like Luongo or Miller).

IOW, fat chance of actually happening. they can bulk up with wingers.

Up the Irons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 11:05 AM
  #212
Moose Coleman
Registered User
 
Moose Coleman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 4,016
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
How is Eberle not living up to his contract?
Didn't say he wasn't (though that argument could be made this season). Point is, Gagner is much more of a known commodity now than Eberle was when he was signed to his huge deal.

Moose Coleman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 11:13 AM
  #213
Replacement
Checked out
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hiking
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RustE View Post
that's not necessarily true. remember, if this were a normal year, we would only be 1/3 thru. RNH has been coming on lately, and it is reasonable to say that he would have 50+ points in an 82 game season. He had a tough 20 games. that is not a brutal season. Not to mention, his D is much better than Gagner's.

that said, they should still keep Gagner, simple because he is good. I've said it before, i would only trade him for a good top pairing D (like Meyer)), a perfect 2C (like Couturier or Staal), or a good, proven starting goalie (like Luongo or Miller).

IOW, fat chance of actually happening. they can bulk up with wingers.
FTR Hopkins has more EV GA than Gagner. It wouldn't even be close either were it not for the 3-4 empty net goals Gagner has been on the ice for this year as when the team needs to pop a goal late in the game and pull the goalie Gagner is ALWAYS one of the players tapped. Unfortunately, and for reasons I can't understand, they include that in EV GA stats although its atypical and doesn't really contribute to an accurate gauge on defensive play.

Lets not forget either that in the above you are comparing Gagner playing with scrubs like Nillson and Cogliano and RNH getting to play with world class players like Hall and Eberle. Eberle last year was driving and finishing a lot of pts on that line. Without his sublime finish alone last year some guys easily have 15-20 less pts right there.

Gagner has NEVER had the opportunity to play much with somebody stuffing 35 goals in a season.

Replacement is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 11:13 AM
  #214
Ol' Jase
PLAYOFFS??
 
Ol' Jase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,444
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
Didn't say he wasn't (though that argument could be made this season). Point is, Gagner is much more of a known commodity now than Eberle was when he was signed to his huge deal.
We should allow Eberle's new deal to actually start before assessing it.

Gagner has earned a payday, no doubt. Can the Oilers afford it in the long term? They should do pretty much what it takes to keep him, IMO.

Ol' Jase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 11:18 AM
  #215
Ol' Jase
PLAYOFFS??
 
Ol' Jase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,444
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
FTR Hopkins has more EV GA than Gagner. It wouldn't even be close either were it not for the 3-4 empty net goals Gagner has been on the ice for this year as when the team needs to pop a goal late in the game and pull the goalie Gagner is ALWAYS one of the players tapped. Unfortunately, and for reasons I can't understand, they include that in EV GA stats although its atypical and doesn't really contribute to an accurate gauge on defensive play.

Lets not forget either that in the above you are comparing Gagner playing with scrubs like Nillson and Cogliano and RNH getting to play with world class players like Hall and Eberle. Eberle last year was driving and finishing a lot of pts on that line. Without his sublime finish alone last year some guys easily have 15-20 less pts right there.

Gagner has NEVER had the opportunity to play much with somebody stuffing 35 goals in a season.
Gagner is having a great year, but he is still not playing against any top line players, while RNH is consistently.

Ol' Jase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 11:22 AM
  #216
Replacement
Checked out
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hiking
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
Gagner is having a great year, but he is still not playing against any top line players, while RNH is consistently.
I knew somebody would try to bring this up again. This is the WC, with most teams having a pretty good first and second line and save for a few clubs there being really no difference who you face. For instance tomorrow we play Detroit. Does it matter who gets which top line? Theres quite a few teams in the east that have more of a 1A, 1B configuration normally.

The bolded is fiction btw.

Replacement is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 11:27 AM
  #217
Ol' Jase
PLAYOFFS??
 
Ol' Jase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,444
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
I knew somebody would try to bring this up again. This is the WC, with most teams having a pretty good first and second line and save for a few clubs there being really no difference who you face. For instance tomorrow we play Detroit. Does it matter who gets which top line? Theres quite a few teams in the east that have more of a 1A, 1B configuration normally.

The bolded is fiction btw.
Actually, it is not fiction at all, as all numbers and line charts clearly show.

As for your assertion the Gagner never plays with anyone useful?

2011-12 Season- EV minutes:

28.6% GAGNER,S - HALL,T - HEMSKY,A
27.5% EBERLE,J - GAGNER,S - HALL,T
15.8% GAGNER,S - HARTIKAINEN,T - HEMSKY,A
15.8% BELANGER,E - GAGNER,S - JONES,R
12.4% BELANGER,E - GAGNER,S - PAAJARVI,M


Point Production:

10 45.5% EBERLE,J - GAGNER,S - HALL,T
4 18.2% BELANGER,E - GAGNER,S - JONES,R
4 18.2% EBERLE,J - GAGNER,S - SMYTH,R
2 9.1% EAGER,B - GAGNER,S - JONES,R
2 9.1% EBERLE,J - GAGNER,S - NUGENT-HOPKINS,R

Ol' Jase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 11:31 AM
  #218
nabob
Connor & Looch
 
nabob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: HF boards
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,051
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
Actually, it is not fiction at all, as all numbers and line charts clearly show.
...
15.8% BELANGER,E - GAGNER,S - JONES,R
12.4% BELANGER,E - GAGNER,S - PAAJARVI,M
When argument is lost and logic prevails #blameOmark

And the only reason why he had to play any time on Belanger's line is because he couldnt win a face off to save his life, and wasnt good enough defensively to play on the Horcoff shutdown line. Gagner has received very sheltered minutes his whole career. Good to see him capitalizing on it this year.

nabob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 11:31 AM
  #219
Replacement
Checked out
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hiking
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
Actually, it is not fiction at all, as all numbers and line charts clearly show.
You stated, and I quote:

"Gagner is having a great year, but he is still not playing against any top line players"

What does this sentence mean to you?

Replacement is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 11:32 AM
  #220
Worraps
McWonderful McSummer
 
Worraps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,040
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
I knew somebody would try to bring this up again. This is the WC, with most teams having a pretty good first and second line and save for a few clubs there being really no difference who you face. For instance tomorrow we play Detroit. Does it matter who gets which top line? Theres quite a few teams in the east that have more of a 1A, 1B configuration normally.

The bolded is fiction btw.
Your continued attempts to paint Gagner as Nugent-Hopkins's defensive equal makes me question if you've watched any of the games.

Sam is a good player having a great season you have enough ammunition for your argument that he is valuable without making things up.

Worraps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 11:34 AM
  #221
Replacement
Checked out
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hiking
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ol' Jase View Post
Actually, it is not fiction at all, as all numbers and line charts clearly show.

As for your assertion the Gagner never plays with anyone useful?
The sidebar discussion was about the respective players first two years in the league.

So no, I don't recall Gagner playing with Eberle and Hall in year one and two..

Replacement is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 11:35 AM
  #222
Replacement
Checked out
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hiking
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by worraps View Post
Your continued attempts to paint Gagner as Nugent-Hopkins's defensive equal makes me question if you've watched any of the games.

Sam is a good player having a great season you have enough ammunition for your argument that he is valuable without making things up.
I'm not the one bringing it up. Others seem to often want to make the comparison. It is an obvious comparison that the whole board would make. I like both players, I want both players, it isn't an either/or proposition for me in anycase.

Replacement is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 11:37 AM
  #223
Worraps
McWonderful McSummer
 
Worraps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,040
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
I'm not the one bringing it up. Others seem to often want to make the comparison. It is an obvious comparison that the whole board would make. I like both players, I want both players, it isn't an either/or proposition for me in anycase.
I like both players as well and, under the right circumstances, I'd also like to keep them both.

But even at 19, Nugent-Hopkins is miles ahead of Gagner on the defensive side of the puck.

Worraps is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 11:39 AM
  #224
Ol' Jase
PLAYOFFS??
 
Ol' Jase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,444
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
You stated, and I quote:

"Gagner is having a great year, but he is still not playing against any top line players"

What does this sentence mean to you?
It means that game in and game out, Gagner is not facing the same level of competition as Nugent-Hopkins is, and every metric, including actual tracking of who is on the ice against who, bears this out.

Ol' Jase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-14-2013, 11:41 AM
  #225
Replacement
Checked out
 
Replacement's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Hiking
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by worraps View Post
I like both players as well and, under the right circumstances, I'd also like to keep them both.

But even at 19, Nugent-Hopkins is miles ahead of Gagner on the defensive side of the puck.
But lets be clear here. Even a week ago when RNH had all of 7pts you were saying he'd been the better offensive player as well this year. To which nobody on the board agreed with you.

I don't think we're seeing the same things here which is fine. Again at least we do like both players.

That Nuges is "miles ahead of Gagner defensively" is simply unsubstantiated. In fact a head coach is using one of them on the PK regularly. Which one?

I wonder why.

Replacement is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:14 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2016 All Rights Reserved.