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Old
03-13-2013, 01:13 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
Urgh...
So Cormier never get's a chance to play in the NHL? Give the kid a break.

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03-13-2013, 01:14 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Grind View Post
agreed. coudln't tell what the clip was (no youtubes here) but I've always remembered this about him.

From all instances it sounds like he's made big strides in getting away from these kind of decisions. One poster recently had suggested getting cormier to "walk the line" but how he isn't really that kind of a player, I'm pretty sure this incident is why.

I don't think we'll see this kind of play from Cormier again, which might take away from his ability to play the "line-walking pest" role, but either way, i think i'd rather have a strong defensive forward then the pest.

I'm interested to see how he does in his audition, whenever it is
I'll need some quantifiable evidence from a controlled environment that proves this is the case before I can support putting him in the lineup. Thorburn has a 0.00% ECC rating in his career (elbows causing convulsions). Cormier will need to lower his and also display a comparable NBW* factor in a larger sample size than what he has currently.

*NBW: Not being a wimp

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03-13-2013, 01:14 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Donald View Post
I strongly suspect that even if Thorburn is replaced the Jets will still have a forward who plays the least amount of minutes.

And if the Jets could trade Thorburn for someone who was tougher and a better hockey player, I'm sure they would.

And good grief, I'm no luddite but these are hockey teams, not science projects. Does every single discussion have to revolve around these precious advanced stats? It seems like it's all I read about on here.

Seriously... "but fighting has not been proven to influence the outcome of a hockey game in a consistent manner." Someone tell the players, coaches, and GMs that have been doing this their whole life.
We have a tougher and better hockey player already. Also, bigger, faster and younger. His name is Peluso, and he will spell the end of Thorburn. I don't mind having a guy who can chuck knuckles in the lineup but he had better be able to play, and Thorburn is not a good enough hockey player, especially when he posts no hitters.

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03-13-2013, 01:17 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Brogosian View Post
We have a tougher and better hockey player already. Also, bigger, faster and younger. His name is Peluso, and he will spell the end of Thorburn. I don't mind having a guy who can chuck knuckles in the lineup but he had better be able to play, and Thorburn is not a good enough hockey player, especially when he posts no hitters.
I like Peluso better than Thorburn too so far. But he's hurt right now so he can't replace anybody. The team was doing pretty good with Thorburn and Peluso in the lineup for a few games there too.

And I think it's a bit premature to assume that Peluso is a better player than Thorburn after just a handful of NHL games.

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03-13-2013, 01:18 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Donald View Post
I strongly suspect that even if Thorburn is replaced the Jets will still have a forward who plays the least amount of minutes.

And if the Jets could trade Thorburn for someone who was tougher and a better hockey player, I'm sure they would.

And good grief, I'm no luddite but these are hockey teams, not science projects. Does every single discussion have to revolve around these precious advanced stats? It seems like it's all I read about on here.

Seriously... "but fighting has not been proven to influence the outcome of a hockey game in a consistent manner." Someone tell the players, coaches, and GMs that have been doing this their whole life.
They have. Which is why all the smart teams in the league have gone away from goons and staged fights. Only stupid teams like the Maple Leafs or terrible terrible teams like Flames and Oilers still use they and try to lure teams into staged fighting.

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Old
03-13-2013, 01:19 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
So Cormier never get's a chance to play in the NHL? Give the kid a break.
Never! Not until Machacek gets his 4th and 5th chances!

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03-13-2013, 01:20 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Donald View Post
I strongly suspect that even if Thorburn is replaced the Jets will still have a forward who plays the least amount of minutes.

And if the Jets could trade Thorburn for someone who was tougher and a better hockey player, I'm sure they would.

And good grief, I'm no luddite but these are hockey teams, not science projects. Does every single discussion have to revolve around these precious advanced stats? It seems like it's all I read about on here.

Seriously... "but fighting has not been proven to influence the outcome of a hockey game in a consistent manner." Someone tell the players, coaches, and GMs that have been doing this their whole life.
confirmation bias is a powerful thing- The world was flat until it was proven it wasn't(a grandiose comparison to be sure, but you know what i mean).

And i apologies if my interest in measuring my perceptions against stats annoys you, but that's really all it is, it's an interest/hobby. They also don't always match up, I love James Wright but his numbers don't exactly correlate.

and of course someone will have the lowest amount of TOI, you'd just hope there wouldn't be as much of a discrepancy between his and his line mates. you'd also hope he'd be more effective in those minutes.

but we're going waaaay ot here and i'm a big reason why, sorry..

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03-13-2013, 01:20 PM
  #58
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First, by all accounts, Thorburn is good in the locker room.
Second, the coach said his fight last night was a motivator (Anti-fighting activists hate it, but sometimes a fight works that way - particularly when a second degree guy like Thorburn neutralizes a league super heavy like Orr).
Third Thorburn is arguably not the worst guy on the roster this year nor last year (see Wright and Glass if stats are the case against Thorburn).
Fourth. He doesn't cost much.

IMOs are fine; absolutes beg research.

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03-13-2013, 01:21 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Donald View Post
I like Peluso better than Thorburn too so far. But he's hurt right now so he can't replace anybody. The team was doing pretty good with Thorburn and Peluso in the lineup for a few games there too.

And I think it's a bit premature to assume that Peluso is a better player than Thorburn after just a handful of NHL games.
The skillset I saw from Peluso leads me to believe he will overtake Thorburn in everyones minds fairly quickly when he returns. He has good footspeed, decent hands and shot, and looks like he can actually clear the puck (which Thorburn seems incapable of).

The only question mark is whether Peluso will be a consistent hitter. Honestly, it seems pretty simple for someone who is this close to the NHL to just hit to stay in the lineup but you see so many guys (like Tangradi) refuse to do it. Just baffles the mind.

To be honest, I don't think it's a huge task to be better than Thorburn.

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03-13-2013, 01:22 PM
  #60
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Never! Not until Machacek gets his 4th and 5th chances!
Don't you mean 14th or 15th chances!

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03-13-2013, 01:23 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Donald View Post
I strongly suspect that even if Thorburn is replaced the Jets will still have a forward who plays the least amount of minutes.

And if the Jets could trade Thorburn for someone who was tougher and a better hockey player, I'm sure they would.

And good grief, I'm no luddite but these are hockey teams, not science projects. Does every single discussion have to revolve around these precious advanced stats? It seems like it's all I read about on here.

Seriously... "but fighting has not been proven to influence the outcome of a hockey game in a consistent manner." Someone tell the players, coaches, and GMs that have been doing this their whole life.
Fine I won't use "quantifiable" evidence.
Last Peluso fight, Peluso man handled the other player, but both teams cheered, and the other team was the inspired team that day.
I like to think of it as a risk/reward play, much like pulling the goalie. You are risking the other team having an easy goal if they get good control, for having another player on the ice to attack with. You can quantify this in chances but really it's not too hard to see logically without numbers... so why not think logically with the other one as well. When you fight merely for inspiration (remember we're not talking about other justifiable reasons) you risk inspiring the other team. Simply put.


But that is all besides the point. In the end it all comes to this:
There are many tough and/or agitative hockey players who are well known for having either the ability to contribute to the team offensively and/or defensively in addition to their character and truculence.

I would rather have that.
As much as I hate Torres, he scores pretty well in bottom6 role.
As much as I hate Prust, he actually succeeds in shutting down top players decently enough.
Aside: Peluso looks to have promise in this.


Last edited by garret9: 03-13-2013 at 01:31 PM.
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Old
03-13-2013, 01:25 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
They have. Which is why all the smart teams in the league have gone away from goons and staged fights. Only stupid teams like the Maple Leafs or terrible terrible teams like Flames and Oilers still use they and try to lure teams into staged fighting.
LOL. So if they're good teams that fight a lot, they're still stupid? You also forgot about Boston, Philadelphia, St. Louis, and soon Ottawa that will be stupid and good teams. As opposed to smart and good teams that are boring to watch.

There's more than one style of hockey that can be successful. You just prefer the wimpy and boring style.

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03-13-2013, 01:29 PM
  #63
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First, by all accounts, Thorburn is good in the locker room.
Second, the coach said his fight last night was a motivator (Anti-fighting activists hate it, but sometimes a fight works that way - particularly when a second degree guy like Thorburn neutralizes a league super heavy like Orr).
Third Thorburn is arguably not the worst guy on the roster this year nor last year (see Wright and Glass if stats are the case against Thorburn).
Fourth. He doesn't cost much.

IMOs are fine; absolutes beg research.
I researched...

I stand by Thorburn being (very slightly) worse than Glass defensively and offensively (which says a lot because Glass isn't that great at either).
I stand by Thorburn being worse than Wright defensively and a wash offensively.
Stats and eye-test... Coach seems to think this too, both times as Thorburn has always been more sheltered and less ice-time of the 3.

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03-13-2013, 01:29 PM
  #64
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Aren't arguments about Thorburn kind of OT in the Cormier thread?

Regarding Cormier, Keith McCambridge was just raving about his play over the past two months on 1290 this morning, says he has been their best player on a bad team, has done everything the organization has asked of him. Was deserving of the call-up in his view. [/paraphrasing]

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03-13-2013, 01:31 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by garret9 View Post
But that is all besides the point. In the end it all comes to this:
There are many tough and/or agitative hockey players who are well known for having either the ability to contribute to the team offensively and/or defensively in addition to their character and truculence.

I would rather have that.
I agree with that. In the meantime I'm glad we have Thorburn. He is better than nothing.

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03-13-2013, 01:33 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Brogosian View Post
The skillset I saw from Peluso leads me to believe he will overtake Thorburn in everyones minds fairly quickly when he returns. He has good footspeed, decent hands and shot, and looks like he can actually clear the puck (which Thorburn seems incapable of).

The only question mark is whether Peluso will be a consistent hitter. Honestly, it seems pretty simple for someone who is this close to the NHL to just hit to stay in the lineup but you see so many guys (like Tangradi) refuse to do it. Just baffles the mind.

To be honest, I don't think it's a huge task to be better than Thorburn.
Disagree. Peluso was mediocre in his games, but I certainly did not see anything in his skating or puck protection any better than Thorburn. We'll see.

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LOL. So if they're good teams that fight a lot, they're still stupid? You also forgot about Boston, Philadelphia, St. Louis, and soon Ottawa that will be stupid and good teams. As opposed to smart and good teams that are boring to watch.

There's more than one style of hockey that can be successful. You just prefer the wimpy and boring style.
Get yourself educated before making statements like this.

Really? So who is the goon that stages fights on Boston, Philadelphia, St. Louis or Ottawa? Please tell me. None of those teams use fighting as a intimidator, nor does it play into their strategy like Toronto or Edmonton trying to be tough using goons.

You really have no idea who I am or what I want. I have no problem with fighting when it's for a reason, but it has been shown that fighting does not really motivate a team like some think it does (Peluso's stupid scrap anybody?) and it DOES NOT intimidate anybody. Nobody on our team backed down from those big scary meanies Toronto dressed in Orr and McLaren did we? No, because nobody gives a ****. Fighting is the most overrated attribute, fans are the only ones who think your team is "tough" since they have fighters or fight a lot.

True tough team is like LA or BOS. The grind it out, they battle out front, they clog up the middle of the ice. You get the puck on your stick and you will be hit. They come after you hard with every line always attacking. You will have to battle for every inch every time you play them. That is toughness, that is how you want to play the game of hockey. That's what makes it a ***** to play those teams, they never let up. Toughness derived from fighters or fighting is a mirage.

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03-13-2013, 01:35 PM
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How did Slater break his hand?

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03-13-2013, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Aren't arguments about Thorburn kind of OT in the Cormier thread?

Regarding Cormier, Keith McCambridge was just raving about his play over the past two months on 1290 this morning, says he has been their best player on a bad team, has done everything the organization has asked of him. Was deserving of the call-up in his view. [/paraphrasing]
Not if they will be fighting for the same roster spot.

Maybe not now, but possibly as soon and definitely next year.

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03-13-2013, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
Disagree. Peluso was mediocre in his games, but I certainly did not see anything in his skating or puck protection any better than Thorburn. We'll see.
I thought he was a lot stronger along the boards, but we haven't seen enough to know if that will carry over long term.

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03-13-2013, 01:40 PM
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How did Slater break his hand?
Don't know more than Noel said it happened in the third period.

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03-13-2013, 01:41 PM
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I agree with that. In the meantime I'm glad we have Thorburn. He is better than nothing.
but is he better then cormier - that's where this all started

also in reference to your question about quantifiable evidence for cormier- i actually tried to look up the amount of "dirty" penalties/suspensions since he joined the AHL but hey keep bad numbers. NOt sure what we could use as NBW factor...

and yes, the numbers do support thorburn as being the worst player, though i think you could make the argument for Slater (though i think his PK work, faceoff% and zone starts makes up the difference between him and thorbs)


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03-13-2013, 01:44 PM
  #72
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Aren't arguments about Thorburn kind of OT in the Cormier thread?

Regarding Cormier, Keith McCambridge was just raving about his play over the past two months on 1290 this morning, says he has been their best player on a bad team, has done everything the organization has asked of him. Was deserving of the call-up in his view. [/paraphrasing]
I'm excited to see what Cormier can bring. He's at a very important stage for him contract wise, and you would have to think he knows he has to show the brass that he should be in the Jets plans for the next 5 years.

I thought he was close last year, and he's probably one of those guys that was hurt by not having the longer training camp and exhibition games.

Add in your comment above about KM's feelings on his play and work ethic, and I really hope he takes this opportunity and runs with it.

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03-13-2013, 01:46 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
They have. Which is why all the smart teams in the league have gone away from goons and staged fights. Only stupid teams like the Maple Leafs or terrible terrible teams like Flames and Oilers still use they and try to lure teams into staged fighting.
Terrible teams like Boston and Anaheim and Pittsburgh and so forth.

It is a tactic like any tactic it can work sometimes and cannot work.

In General most players like to have tough guys on your team. [mod]


Last edited by Hank Chinaski: 03-13-2013 at 01:52 PM. Reason: flaming
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03-13-2013, 01:49 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
Disagree. Peluso was mediocre in his games, but I certainly did not see anything in his skating or puck protection any better than Thorburn. We'll see.



Get yourself educated before making statements like this.

Really? So who is the goon that stages fights on Boston, Philadelphia, St. Louis or Ottawa? Please tell me. None of those teams use fighting as a intimidator, nor does it play into their strategy like Toronto or Edmonton trying to be tough using goons.

You really have no idea who I am or what I want. I have no problem with fighting when it's for a reason, but it has been shown that fighting does not really motivate a team like some think it does (Peluso's stupid scrap anybody?) and it DOES NOT intimidate anybody. Nobody on our team backed down from those big scary meanies Toronto dressed in Orr and McLaren did we? No, because nobody gives a ****. Fighting is the most overrated attribute, fans are the only ones who think your team is "tough" since they have fighters or fight a lot.

True tough team is like LA or BOS. The grind it out, they battle out front, they clog up the middle of the ice. You get the puck on your stick and you will be hit. They come after you hard with every line always attacking. You will have to battle for every inch every time you play them. That is toughness, that is how you want to play the game of hockey. That's what makes it a ***** to play those teams, they never let up. Toughness derived from fighters or fighting is a mirage.
Sure, I've seen this rant a million times before. Like I said, tell that to all the "stupid" players, coaches and GMs in the NHL. It's also possible you're wrong and not everyone in the NHL is as super courageous as you think they are and it does make a difference.

And to answer your question: Thornton, Rinaldo (except against Peluso), Reaves, and Zassian soon.

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03-13-2013, 01:50 PM
  #75
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but is he better then cormier - that's where this all started
Good point. What were we arguing about again? Welcome to the team Cormier, glad you're here!

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