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Kessel for Giroux

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Old
03-15-2013, 05:32 AM
  #1
Center Ice Scrum
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Kessel for Giroux

Both Leafs and Flyers are struggling mightily this season. Brayden Schenn looks like he's ready to take a bigger role on the Flyers next season and Couturier would really flourish if given an opportunity to play #2C. Leafs are in dire needs for a center and Flyers seem to have 3 franchise centers (atleast exceptionally good centers) on the team right now. Would Homer ever consider trading Claude Giroux for Phil Kessel?

NOTE: I'm not implying it would be a straight swap, but as the basis of a deal, is Homer crazy enough to do something like this? Specially looking at his track record, he hasn't been hesitant to hand the reigns to an up and coming player on the team and deal his current captain (at the time).


Leafs:
Kessel +

Flyers:
Giroux +


Try to keep the thread civilized. If you can't handle the insanity of the proposal please refrain from posting or reading the thread. Thanks.

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Old
03-15-2013, 05:33 AM
  #2
senorchang
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Giroux

Couts

Schenn

we will be looking at that for a long time.

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Old
03-15-2013, 05:49 AM
  #3
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if im holmgren, i wouldn't trade giroux for kessel with a gun to my head

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Old
03-15-2013, 05:59 AM
  #4
Krishna
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Kessel + for Giroux +?

That'd be closer to :

Kessel + Reilly ++ for Giroux

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Old
03-15-2013, 06:12 AM
  #5
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Too early for jokes that are not funny. Kessel is a lazy bum.

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Old
03-15-2013, 06:23 AM
  #6
1865
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Oy vey! Toronto fans...

What makes you think that the Flyers would add a single thing to anything like this deal? I mean, Toronto add significantly to even get the Flyers to answer the phone.

Don't drink and write folks.

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Old
03-15-2013, 06:37 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Center Ice Scrum View Post
Both Leafs and Flyers are struggling mightily this season. Brayden Schenn looks like he's ready to take a bigger role on the Flyers next season and Couturier would really flourish if given an opportunity to play #2C. Leafs are in dire needs for a center and Flyers seem to have 3 franchise centers (atleast exceptionally good centers) on the team right now. Would Homer ever consider trading Claude Giroux for Phil Kessel?

NOTE: I'm not implying it would be a straight swap, but as the basis of a deal, is Homer crazy enough to do something like this? Specially looking at his track record, he hasn't been hesitant to hand the reigns to an up and coming player on the team and deal his current captain (at the time).


Leafs:
Kessel +

Flyers:
Giroux +


Try to keep the thread civilized. If you can't handle the insanity of the proposal please refrain from posting or reading the thread. Thanks.
There's not enough hallucinogenics on Earth to make any sane GM consider this. This is Holmgren we're talking about, not Milbury.

- centers have more value than wingers
- Giroux is locked up long term at a good cap hit, Kessel is UFA after next year
- Giroux is their captain
- Giroux > Kessel offensively
- Giroux >>>> Kessel defensively

just as a start.

But to play along, and work within the framework of a Kessel for Giroux deal :

- first, Kessel would have to be extended long term at a good cap hit
- Philly would not add a single thing, other than possibly a cap dump like Bryz (even adding him is unlikely unless they acquire someone like Bishop, Schneider, or Bernier to step in for him)
- it would have to be something like Giroux for (extended) Kessel, Reilly, 2013 1st, and keep adding, like at least one more first rounder.

In short, not gonna happen. The fact that you refer to your own proposal as 'insanity' says all we need to know about this one.

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Old
03-15-2013, 06:43 AM
  #8
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maybe flyers consider
kessel and gardiner for giroux
...but i still doubt it

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Old
03-15-2013, 06:46 AM
  #9
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Here's what's going to happen:
Flyers fans will laugh at this proposal, and say that Kessel is nowhere near Giroux's level.
->Which will lead to the Leafs fans becoming enraged and furiously defending their player, probably while implying that Giroux is overrated.

Random guy (fan of neither team) says that neither GM does this move.

Lastly there's going to be a few mysterious posts of people who like to say something that doesn't really mean anything, like "the value is closer than you think!"

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Old
03-15-2013, 06:48 AM
  #10
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Nope.

And neither Couturier nor B. Schenn have proven they can be #2 centers, let alone franchise players. That's a tad premature.


Last edited by PayItForward: 03-15-2013 at 07:28 AM.
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Old
03-15-2013, 06:57 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
There's not enough hallucinogenics on Earth to make any sane GM consider this. This is Holmgren we're talking about, not Milbury.

- centers have more value than wingers
- Giroux is locked up long term at a good cap hit, Kessel is UFA after next year
- Giroux is their captain
- Giroux > Kessel offensively
- Giroux >>>> Kessel defensively

just as a start.

But to play along, and work within the framework of a Kessel for Giroux deal :

- first, Kessel would have to be extended long term at a good cap hit
- Philly would not add a single thing, other than possibly a cap dump like Bryz (even adding him is unlikely unless they acquire someone like Bishop, Schneider, or Bernier to step in for him)
- it would have to be something like Giroux for (extended) Kessel, Reilly, 2013 1st, and keep adding, like at least one more first rounder.

In short, not gonna happen. The fact that you refer to your own proposal as 'insanity' says all we need to know about this one.
I thought both players had contracts through 2013-2014 season.
Who cares about captaincy? You can't trade your captain? Flyers would never do that.

I agree, not a chance this trade would happen. Giroux is much better than Kessel. I just don't buy those reasons.

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Old
03-15-2013, 06:58 AM
  #12
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Kessels great, but there's maybe 7 or 8 players on the planet I'd move Giroux for. Not a single one of those 8 or so players is leaving their teams in anything other than a hearse if their Gm's have anything to say about it. The same could likely be said for Giroux.

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Old
03-15-2013, 07:01 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
There's not enough hallucinogenics on Earth to make any sane GM consider this. This is Holmgren we're talking about, not Milbury.

- centers have more value than wingers
- Giroux is locked up long term at a good cap hit, Kessel is UFA after next year
- Giroux is their captain
- Giroux > Kessel offensively
- Giroux >>>> Kessel defensively
while i agree Giroux has much more value then Kessel offensively is just not the case..
last 4 years
G 242 in 269 (77 goals) .9 ppg .29 gpg
K 227 in 262 (108 goals) .87 ppg .41 gpg

if i want pure offence ill take the .03 drop in points for the .12 rise in goals..

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Old
03-15-2013, 07:14 AM
  #14
Krishna
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Predsrule View Post
while i agree Giroux has much more value then Kessel offensively is just not the case..
last 4 years
G 242 in 269 (77 goals) .9 ppg .29 gpg
K 227 in 262 (108 goals) .87 ppg .41 gpg

if i want pure offence ill take the .03 drop in points for the .12 rise in goals..
Giroux was playing on the 2nd and 3rd line and Kessel was playing first line minutes since the leafs had no one else.

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Old
03-15-2013, 07:17 AM
  #15
Giroux tha Damaja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Predsrule View Post
while i agree Giroux has much more value then Kessel offensively is just not the case..
last 4 years
G 242 in 269 (77 goals) .9 ppg .29 gpg
K 227 in 262 (108 goals) .87 ppg .41 gpg

if i want pure offence ill take the .03 drop in points for the .12 rise in goals..
Last year was the first year Giroux got first line minutes, and wasn't playing behind Carter and Richards (he scored 93 points). But he scored 76 points the season before they got traded in sort of a 2nd/3rd line tweener role, so we'll include that season too.

Over the last two seasons:

Kessel has played 164 games (impressive): 69-77-146 - .89ppg
Giroux has played 159 games.......................: 53-116-169 - 1.06ppg

So the difference is actually .17 ppg in a more relevant sample size. Then there is the fact that Giroux is a plus in the face off circle. He also has a nice play-off resume. Kessel will probably do well in the play-offs when he get an oppoortunity (and he will soon, the Leafs are on the right track I think), but Giroux has already done it, so it counts in his favor.

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Old
03-15-2013, 07:21 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
Giroux was playing on the 2nd and 3rd line and Kessel was playing first line minutes since the leafs had no one else.
dont hink u want to play that game with the leafs.. as let look at the centers Kes has had... again id call off pretty even and on a team like nashville for pure offece only id rather have Kessel.. somehow this will still get taken as i think Kessel > Giroux .. but hey thats hf

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Old
03-15-2013, 07:22 AM
  #17
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LOL......pass the popcorn....LOL

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Old
03-15-2013, 07:23 AM
  #18
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Originally Posted by Center Ice Scrum View Post
Both Leafs and Flyers are struggling mightily this season.
Really? Yes, the leafs are struggling RIGHT NOW, but to say they've struggled throughout the whole season when most people expected us to be somewhere in 10th-13th is ridiculous.

As for the trade proposal, leafs would have to add significantly to the point where it's not worth it.

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Old
03-15-2013, 07:25 AM
  #19
Predsrule
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
Last year was the first year Giroux got first line minutes, and wasn't playing behind Carter and Richards (he scored 93 points). But he scored 76 points the season before they got traded in sort of a 2nd/3rd line tweener role, so we'll include that season too.

Over the last two seasons:

Kessel has played 164 games (impressive): 69-77-146 - .89ppg
Giroux has played 159 games.......................: 53-116-169 - 1.06ppg

So the difference is actually .17 ppg in a more relevant sample size. Then there is the fact that Giroux is a plus in the face off circle. He also has a nice play-off resume. Kessel will probably do well in the play-offs when he get an oppoortunity (and he will soon, the Leafs are on the right track I think), but Giroux has already done it, so it counts in his favor.
oh oh i can play lets so and find selective stats to make x look better!
last 5 years
287 in 332 (144 goals) .864
269 in 311 (86 goals) .865
again huge diff on goals

hell lets not go that far at all this year
28 8 18 26
28 9 17 26

again all im trying to say is sorry but for just off they are pretty much even depends if u want a playmaker center or a scoring winger..

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Old
03-15-2013, 07:25 AM
  #20
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Giroux is the better player but I feel like the difference between them would not be Reilly and a 1st+. Good, but over rated a bit value wise. Both only have what 1 year left on their contract?

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Old
03-15-2013, 07:36 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Predsrule View Post
dont hink u want to play that game with the leafs.. as let's look at the centers Kessel has had... again id call off pretty even and on a team like nashville for pure offece only id rather have Kessel.. somehow this will still get taken as i think Kessel > Giroux .. but hey thats hf
If that's all we're looking at, okay, it's not nuts. But why would you really even try to separate the two sides of the game anyway? It's not as if either player isn't going to have to spend considerable time playing defence during their shifts.

Kessel's been a -38 in his career and Giroux is a +17. They both have 99 power play points (Kessel in 484 games to Giroux's 313). So you look at their even strength scoring and it's not so different to account for a +55 difference. The point I'm making is that Kessel's definitely getting scored on more often at even strength to date in their careers. The difference probably isn't as bad as that suggests though, since Giroux has been on better teams, but surely some of that is just because he's a bit better defensively.

It hurts my argument and helps the case for Kessel, but for the sake of intillectual honesty I should note that Giroux's a -8 this year in spite of looking as good as he ever has in his own end, which goes to show what a crap goalie can do to your +/-.

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03-15-2013, 07:36 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Franco View Post
Giroux is the better player but I feel like the difference between them would not be Reilly and a 1st+. Good, but over rated a bit value wise. Both only have what 1 year left on their contract?
One's a UFA and one is a RFA.

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Old
03-15-2013, 07:38 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Center Ice Scrum View Post
Both Leafs and Flyers are struggling mightily this season. Brayden Schenn looks like he's ready to take a bigger role on the Flyers next season and Couturier would really flourish if given an opportunity to play #2C. Leafs are in dire needs for a center and Flyers seem to have 3 franchise centers (atleast exceptionally good centers) on the team right now. Would Homer ever consider trading Claude Giroux for Phil Kessel?

NOTE: I'm not implying it would be a straight swap, but as the basis of a deal, is Homer crazy enough to do something like this? Specially looking at his track record, he hasn't been hesitant to hand the reigns to an up and coming player on the team and deal his current captain (at the time).


Leafs:
Kessel +

Flyers:
Giroux +


Try to keep the thread civilized. If you can't handle the insanity of the proposal please refrain from posting or reading the thread. Thanks.
As a Flyers fan, if Holmgren trades Giroux for Kessel, I'm done cheering for the Flyers.

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Old
03-15-2013, 07:41 AM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
If that's all we're looking at, okay, it's not nuts. But why would you really even try to separate the two sides of the game anyway? It's not as if either player isn't going to have to spend considerable time playing defence during their shifts.

Kessel's been a -38 in his career and Giroux is a +17. They both have 99 power play points (Kessel in 484 games to Giroux's 313). So you look at their even strength scoring and it's not so different to account for a +55 difference. The point I'm making is that Kessel's definitely getting scored on more often at even strength to date in their careers. The difference probably isn't as bad as that suggests though, since Giroux has been on better teams, but surely some of that is just because he's a bit better defensively.

It hurts my argument and helps the case for Kessel, but for the sake of intillectual honesty I should note that Giroux's a -8 this year in spite of looking as good as he ever has in his own end, which goes to show what a crap goalie can do to your +/-.
if u read back i was just stating as replaying to the "- Giroux > Kessel offensively" and also said i fully agree Giroux has much more value and agree with almost everything you said. was just trying to make the point off only at best its pretty even.. now if u wanna take everything else into account then not so much

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Old
03-15-2013, 07:42 AM
  #25
Giroux tha Damaja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Predsrule View Post
oh oh i can play lets so and find selective stats to make x look better!
last 5 years
287 in 332 (144 goals) .864
269 in 311 (86 goals) .865
again huge diff on goals

hell lets not go that far at all this year
28 8 18 26
28 9 17 26

again all im trying to say is sorry but for just off they are pretty much even depends if u want a playmaker center or a scoring winger..
Last five years is not such a great comparison as Kessel has been a first line player all five of those years, where as Giroux just got that chance last year. It's also comparing Giroux's rookie year onward, to Kessel's third year onward. If you want to compare anything compare their first five seasons in the league.

This year is a fine comparison, as they're playing in comparable situations. You'll notice they've got about the same # of goals.

EDIT:

I looked at the numbers for each players first five years.

Kessel - 374 games - 128 - 117 - 245 - .655 ppg
Giroux - 313 games - 86 - 183 - 269 - .859 ppg

I also want to note I'm not trying to dress down Kessel or anything. His numbers speak for themselves and he's a great player.


Last edited by Giroux tha Damaja: 03-15-2013 at 07:51 AM.
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