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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM (Part II)

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04-05-2013, 02:35 PM
  #301
ABasin
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
That wasn't what was being discussed at that point. .
I know what I was responding to.

The sentence I responded to was "Name one veteran player with a long term contract who is underachieving."

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04-05-2013, 02:42 PM
  #302
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Your view of his performance. Your view of his potential. Your expectations.
Come on. I enjoy the debate, but that's kind of silly. You feel EJ's potential is zero goals and 12 points in a season? You feel EJ's offensive potential is scoring below the level of Hejda and Hunwick? Does anyone on the planet believe that is his potential?

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It's not like your views of EJ are universal. They're on the far end of the bell curve.
Yeah well, being right is a burden at times. I've heard that statement many times. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes not, but I try to call it like I see it, and without the rose colored glasses.

And give it some time. Earlier this season, no one I can name in here (sorry if someone did, I just can't remember) agreed with me when I had the temerity to bring up the point that EJ has been terribly substandard offensively. Now there's more than a few who see it. So, I moved from the far end of that bell curve also.


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04-05-2013, 02:44 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
I know what I was responding to.

The sentence I responded to was "Name one veteran player with a long term contract who is underachieving."
Haha, ok well I won't fight you too hard on this one, but you did create your own context of the discussion as a way to slight EJ again. The long term contracts forcing the team to be stuck in mediocrity was the original premise.


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Now imagine if John Davidson became President of the Colorado Avalanche and had those "cornerstones" to build around.

The young talent of the Avalanche is undeniable. But surrounded by underachieving veterans with long term contracts, the club is stuck in mediocrity.
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Name 1 underachieving veteran on this team with a long term contract other than Davey Jones.
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Erik Johnson.

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04-05-2013, 02:59 PM
  #304
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Haha, ok well I won't fight you too hard on this one, but you did create your own context of the discussion as a way to slight EJ again.
I did not slight Erik Johnson. I analyzed his play and potential in response to a request. And I believe I did so accurately with no bias either way.


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04-05-2013, 03:02 PM
  #305
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The long term contracts forcing the team to be stuck in mediocrity was the original premise.
And as for this point, I agree with the Jones statement and your point. Which is why I'm looking at the season after next to be the one where the team can truly succeed. Because while they don't have many crappy long-term veteran contracts, they do have a few short term ones.

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04-05-2013, 03:10 PM
  #306
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When a guy has been in the league for five+ years and established himself as a #2 that has a handful of amazing games and a handful of totally disastrous games in a year, but most of the time is a #2, that's really what his potential is.

You're not going to get more than that handful of amazing games out of him. That's not his potential. That's his peak performance tricking you. He doesn't have the consistency to play at that level. It's unfair to be disappointed when he doesn't.

Think of him as a Bouwmeester/Jack Johnson class of player instead of a Doughty/Pietrangelo (even if he has sucked a bit this year too). That's what he always was. That's what we traded for. It may not be what you think he should be. It may not be what you thought we paid for. But that's what he is.
This is a very good post. Aside from the fact that Bouw and JJ have been better offensively this season and have 3-4x the point totals of EJ, I think this is really on target. Because like what I've seen from EJ this season, I've always felt that Bouwmeesters' skills always seemed to far outstrip his play and production. Like he'd win every skills contest he was in, but when he plays hockey games he falls back into the pack a bit.

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04-05-2013, 03:21 PM
  #307
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Greg Sherman gave up a boat load for Erik Johnson expecting him to be a dominant player. I still don't think it was a bad gamble, but the combination of Johnson's performance and the rest of the players Sherman has built the team up with has Colorado in dead last.

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04-05-2013, 03:31 PM
  #308
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Performing below potential/expectations does not equate to underachieving?

It's the very definition of the word. Literally.
Expectations and potential are two different things. He's playing in the range I was expecting even if his potential is so much higher.

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Shane O'Brien.
Is neither underachieving nor on a long term deal.

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04-05-2013, 03:34 PM
  #309
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He most definitely is. My question would be if he was playing 25 minutes a game the way he is playing right now, would he still seem like he is underachieving as much? I feel like his low ice time is compounding the issue of how average his season has been. If every game had been like his two recent 24 minute games, I think people would be a lot more high on him going forward.
2 or 3 more minutes isn't why he is underachieving. It's because he is on a bad team with bad defensive partners.

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04-05-2013, 03:38 PM
  #310
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Expectations and potential are two different things. He's playing in the range I was expecting even if his potential is so much higher.
You seriously want me to believe that you expected him to be outscored by Matt Hunwick and to have zero goals on April 5th? Especially since he scored at a much higher pace just last season?

The EJ defenses are getting more creative, I'll say that.

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04-05-2013, 03:39 PM
  #311
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Is neither underachieving nor on a long term deal.
He's barely been in the line-up this year and has two years left on his contract. He's both underachieving and on a long term deal.

Then add in three more years of anchor David Jones, two more of brittle Ryan Wilson, and another season of Greg Zanon and Matt Hunwick and it's pretty clear not only why the Avalanche are bad, but that there's probably at least one more crummy season ahead of us.

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04-05-2013, 03:42 PM
  #312
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He's barely been in the line-up this year and has two years left on his contract. He's both underachieving and on a long term deal.

Then add in three more years of anchor David Jones, two more of brittle Ryan Wilson, and another season of Greg Zanon and Matt Hunwick and it's pretty clear not only why the Avalanche are bad, but that there's probably at least one more crummy season ahead of us.
I'm no fan of any of those players except Wilson. But playing crappy does not equal underachieving. O'Brien stinks, and he's playing stinky. Pretty much on target, IMO. Ditto for Hunwick and Zanon. Now, O'Byrne was underachieving, because we had seen much better from him than we did this season. EJ is massively underachieving, given what he's capable of, and what's he's done in the past in his career - or simply what he did last year.

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04-05-2013, 03:46 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
I'm no fan of any of those players except Wilson. But playing crappy does not equal underachieving. O'Brien stinks, and he's playing stinky. Pretty much on target, IMO. Ditto for Hunwick and Zanon. Now, O'Byrne was underachieving, because we had seen much better from him than we did this season. EJ is massively underachieving, given what he's capable of, and what's he's done in the past in his career - or simply what he did last year.
Underachieving based on his pay rate then. I just named $12.1 million in salary cap space, which is horrifying.

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04-05-2013, 03:50 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
I'm no fan of any of those players except Wilson. But playing crappy does not equal underachieving. O'Brien stinks, and he's playing stinky. Pretty much on target, IMO. Ditto for Hunwick and Zanon. Now, O'Byrne was underachieving, because we had seen much better from him than we did this season. EJ is massively underachieving, given what he's capable of, and what's he's done in the past in his career - or simply what he did last year.
Maybe O'Byrne overachived last year, let's not forget that he was a 6th/7th dman before joining us.

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04-05-2013, 03:52 PM
  #315
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Underachieving based on his pay rate then. I just named $12.1 million in salary cap space, which is horrifying.
If the Avs can find another legit D to play with EJ, and one of the following happens (they draft Jones, Barrie continues to develop his overall game and produces points more regularly, they find another good second pairing guy) these guys like O'Brien making around $2M for a year or two as #5-8 guys won't be such a big problem.

The Avs know they need to bring in an impact D. It's just a question of what's the price gonna be, and are they able to get it done.

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04-05-2013, 04:06 PM
  #316
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You seriously want me to believe that you expected him to be outscored by Matt Hunwick and to have zero goals on April 5th? Especially since he scored at a much higher pace just last season?

The EJ defenses are getting more creative, I'll say that.
I really don't know how anyone can say he is not underachieving.

Outside of PAP/Duchene/ROR, I'd say everyone is underachieving. The Avs are basically missing Landeskog, Johnson, McGinn, Stastny, and Varly, given what they are capable of and how they are playing.

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04-05-2013, 04:10 PM
  #317
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You seriously want me to believe that you expected him to be outscored by Matt Hunwick and to have zero goals on April 5th? Especially since he scored at a much higher pace just last season?

The EJ defenses are getting more creative, I'll say that.
The points aren't a priority for me, I expected him not to score many goals and try to hold together a cluster**** defense. Which is what he's done.

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04-05-2013, 04:11 PM
  #318
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I really don't know how anyone can say he is not underachieving.

Outside of PAP/Duchene/ROR, I'd say everyone is underachieving. The Avs are basically missing Landeskog, Johnson, McGinn, Stastny, and Varly, given what they are capable of and how they are playing.
I wouldn't put McGinn in the underachiving category. Maybe Jones.

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04-05-2013, 04:12 PM
  #319
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The Avs know they need to bring in an impact D. It's just a question of what's the price gonna be, and are they able to get it done.
I wonder if Stastny is enough of a chip to get that done at next season's deadline.

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04-05-2013, 04:12 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by shadow1 View Post
He's barely been in the line-up this year and has two years left on his contract. He's both underachieving and on a long term deal.

Then add in three more years of anchor David Jones, two more of brittle Ryan Wilson, and another season of Greg Zanon and Matt Hunwick and it's pretty clear not only why the Avalanche are bad, but that there's probably at least one more crummy season ahead of us.
Sacco do what Sacco does. O'Brien has actually played well when he's been called upon. He's a capable third pairing guy and that's what he's been. And 1 more season isn't long term for Zanon and Hunwick. Jones is our only long term mediocre contract.

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04-05-2013, 04:13 PM
  #321
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2 or 3 more minutes isn't why he is underachieving. It's because he is on a bad team with bad defensive partners.
I'm done with this argument. Good players rise to the top. He is a part of a bad defensive group. He SHOULD make them better. Good players make players around them better. He isn't a rookie anymore, we shouldn't need to shelter him.

EJ plays much too passive right now and he is a step behind in decision making in the defensive zone. That isn't even touching the offensive black hole he has become.

On the other side of the coin EJ makes great passes. Tape to tape, long passes or short passes, they are always good. He is really good on the boards and obviously he can skate the puck at will.

I am disappointed in him, because he has so much talent and potential.

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04-05-2013, 04:14 PM
  #322
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I'm done with this argument. Good players rise to the top. He is a part of a bad defensive group. He SHOULD make them better. Good players make players around them better. He isn't a rookie anymore, we shouldn't need to shelter him.

EJ plays much too passive right now and he is a step behind in decision making in the defensive zone.


The physical skills are certainly there in spades.

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04-05-2013, 04:15 PM
  #323
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I'm done with this argument. Good players rise to the top. He is a part of a bad defensive group. He SHOULD make them better. Good players make players around them better. He isn't a rookie anymore, we shouldn't need to shelter him.

EJ plays much too passive right now and he is a step behind in decision making in the defensive zone.
Great players elevate crap, good players get held back by it. EJ's not a great player right now, but he is a very good one, one who's making the best of **** situation.

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04-05-2013, 04:18 PM
  #324
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I really don't know how anyone can say he is not underachieving.
I don't get that either.

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Outside of PAP/Duchene/ROR, I'd say everyone is underachieving. The Avs are basically missing Landeskog, Johnson, McGinn, Stastny, and Varly, given what they are capable of and how they are playing.
The other player who's been underachieving somewhat (like you say) is Landeskog. He hasn't been poor by any stretch, but does he look any better than he did last season? I openly wonder whether the head injury is holding him back in some way. He and McGinn have been decent, but I expected better of both of them.

PAP's been terrific. I'm not sure he's played even two-three subpar games this season.

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04-05-2013, 04:19 PM
  #325
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Great players elevate crap, good players get held back by it.
If that means that great players = 1st pairing defensemen, while good players = 2nd pairing defensemen, you have me on board your ship.

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