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Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM (Part II)

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Old
03-24-2013, 03:43 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Again, the trades landed good players, but also left major holes in the lineup that Sherman appears to have been completely unprepared to fill. At least when Lacroix swung his major deals he usually made certain he had to depth to mitigate those losses. I'm not so sure Sherman does the same.
Again I don't think this is really a fair assessment. PL traded Drury and never really replaced him. PL traded Morris and never really found a true two way guy like that until they brought in Quincey.

Which trades are you referring to that Sherman traded something without any plan for it's replacement? I can only assume it's the Shattenkirk trade because the replacements Sherman had in mind haven't fully developed yet. Stewarts power offensive game was replaced with Landy, Jones, McGinn, and Downie.

Other than that Varly didn't involve giving up a player. Gali's been replaced by McGinn. I guess you can say Quincey, but again there weren't many good options in the offseason. I don't see a case for saying his deals are reckless and not calculating and without a plan for replacements.

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03-24-2013, 04:05 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Again I don't think this is really a fair assessment. PL traded Drury and never really replaced him. PL traded Morris and never really found a true two way guy like that until they brought in Quincey.

Which trades are you referring to that Sherman traded something without any plan for it's replacement? I can only assume it's the Shattenkirk trade because the replacements Sherman had in mind haven't fully developed yet. Stewarts power offensive game was replaced with Landy, Jones, McGinn, and Downie.

Other than that Varly didn't involve giving up a player. Gali's been replaced by McGinn. I guess you can say Quincey, but again there weren't many good options in the offseason. I don't see a case for saying his deals are reckless and not calculating and without a plan for replacements.
No, actually I thought it was prospects in the system that made Sherman think Shattenkirk was expendable. Even I have to admit having a team with Shatty, Barrie, and Elliott would make our defense pretty small and easy to push around.

I don't think they've really replaced what they lost in Stewart and other offensive players they've dealt, but Parenteau was a nice start. Hopefully Hishon and others will continue to do so.

And Varly cost us a shot at a top-end prospect (Forsberg) as well as a player (2nd rounder gained in the Liles trade). I like Varly, but that was a costly trade, and now Sherman has effectively wasted an entire year of the three year deal he's currently signed for. Quincey and Liles were replaced by Hejda and...Zanon? To say Elliott/Barrie were enough to offset the loss of Shattenkirk is one thing, but if management truly believed they offset the losses of Quincey and Liles as well...well, that's pretty erroneous on their part.

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03-24-2013, 04:08 PM
  #153
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No, actually I thought it was prospects in the system that made Sherman think Shattenkirk was expendable. Even I have to admit having a team with Shatty, Barrie, and Elliott would make our defense pretty small and easy to push around.

I don't think they've really replaced what they lost in Stewart and other offensive players they've dealt, but Parenteau was a nice start. Hopefully Hishon and others will continue to do so.

And Varly cost us a shot at a top-end prospect (Forsberg) as well as a player (2nd rounder gained in the Liles trade). I like Varly, but that was a costly trade, and now Sherman has effectively wasted an entire year of the three year deal he's currently signed for. Quincey and Liles were replaced by Hejda and...Zanon? To say Elliott/Barrie were enough to offset the loss of Shattenkirk is one thing, but if management truly believed they offset the losses of Quincey and Liles as well...well, that's pretty erroneous on their part.
I think they drafted Landeskog as Stewarts replacement. If we hadn't gotten EJ and kept Stewart then maybe we would have picked Larsson instead?

I do agree that the Varly trade came with a steep price, I would do it again though. I think our pick would have been higher than #11 without Varly as well. But it was worth it to get a top talented goalie who fit our age profile perfectly. 2nd round picks shouldn't be overrated. How many picks in the 2nd round really turns into something valuable?

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03-24-2013, 04:12 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Again I don't think this is really a fair assessment. PL traded Drury and never really replaced him. PL traded Morris and never really found a true two way guy like that until they brought in Quincey.
Totally disagree. Drury was the team's 2nd line LW. He only played C when Forsberg was out, and didn't do an adequate job there (except in the SC playoffs). He was easily replaced. It was Yelle's loss that wasn't properly addressed. Lacroix auditioned a ton of 3rd line shutdown centers who had varying degrees of success, but the role of shutdown center wasn't adequately addressed until the team snagged Ryan O'Reilly. In that aspect I'll freely admit Lacroix grossly overestimated the loss of a top-level defensive center and faceoff guy and failed to mitigate it.

The Morris deal was a failure, but his loss was offset with the emergence of Liles and the acquisition of Brisebois (laugh all you want, he played better than fans on here are willing to admit).

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03-24-2013, 04:20 PM
  #155
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Totally disagree. Drury was the team's 2nd line LW. He only played C when Forsberg was out, and didn't do an adequate job there (except in the SC playoffs). He was easily replaced. It was Yelle's loss that wasn't properly addressed. Lacroix auditioned a ton of 3rd line shutdown centers who had varying degrees of success, but the role of shutdown center wasn't adequately addressed until the team snagged Ryan O'Reilly. In that aspect I'll freely admit Lacroix grossly overestimated the loss of a top-level defensive center and faceoff guy and failed to mitigate it.

The Morris deal was a failure, but his loss was offset with the emergence of Liles and the acquisition of Brisebois (laugh all you want, he played better than fans on here are willing to admit).
Year 1 yes, year 2 yikes!

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03-24-2013, 04:21 PM
  #156
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I think they drafted Landeskog as Stewarts replacement. If we hadn't gotten EJ and kept Stewart then maybe we would have picked Larsson instead?

I do agree that the Varly trade came with a steep price, I would do it again though. I think our pick would have been higher than #11 without Varly as well. But it was worth it to get a top talented goalie who fit our age profile perfectly. 2nd round picks shouldn't be overrated. How many picks in the 2nd round really turns into something valuable?
Ryan O'Reilly, Shea Weber, Duncan Keith...let's not underrate those picks either.

Landy isn't as much a high-end scorer as Stewart, but of course he's a much better and more reliable all-around player. So yeah, if I had to choose between Stewart and Landeskog, it's a no-brainer. but this team is still in need of reliable scoring wingers. Right now we have a lot of two-way players who can put it in the net, but no true sniper-types like what Hejduk used to be, or a power forward-type like Stewart. McGinn and Jones have been surprisingly bad at creating traffic in front of the net and grabbing rebounds. Their offensive #s would increase no doubt if they did.

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03-24-2013, 04:22 PM
  #157
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It seems that where we are in this discussion, is the posters who put 100% of the players' ineptness on the coach, and other posters who put at least some of the blame on the players. Count me in that 2nd category.

But that said, Sacco has lost the team completely. There isn't one single player on this roster playing NHL caliber defense - and that list now includes EJ and Varlamov. EJ isn't playing any better than O'Byrne over the past 4-5 games, and Varlamov looks like Peter Budaj. Not one forward is playing quality defense either. Not one.

What a train wreck.
The funny thing about Avs fans here on HFboards is that ALL the blame goes to the lesser players, guys that we should not put a lot of expectations to begin with:

Zanon sucks, Hunwick sucks, O'Byrne sucks... Orr'Brien sucks!

The stars players or the top prospect are ALWAYS excused. EJ, Stastny, Varlamov, Elliott and others are playing bad because of Sacco, or because they are surronded by bad teammates.

Nevermind that those players are suposed to carry the team. If those guys were playing to their supposed abilities we would probably be in playoff contention.

But we cannot admit that they suck. We have to find excuses for them. It's human nature. If we admit that there is something wrong with these player our hope vanishes.

It is, afterall, easier to replace the coach or to change a 5-6 dmen, than to admit that your top dman, is not a #1dman (the same guy you gave up a lot to adquire). It is easier to believe that the coach is the reason behind your most expensive player's struggles.

It's more comforting to put the blame on Zanon when the goalie you gave a 1st and 2nd for, let's in a softie.

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Old
03-24-2013, 04:24 PM
  #158
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Year 1 yes, year 2 yikes!
Yeah...it was pretty much downhill after that horrid giveaway to Lupul in the playoffs, and injuries finished him off. Unfortunately the only thing people remember is that giveaway.

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03-24-2013, 04:27 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Ryan O'Reilly, Shea Weber, Duncan Keith...let's not underrate those picks either.

Landy isn't as much a high-end scorer as Stewart, but of course he's a much better and more reliable all-around player. So yeah, if I had to choose between Stewart and Landeskog, it's a no-brainer. but this team is still in need of reliable scoring wingers. Right now we have a lot of two-way players who can put it in the net, but no true sniper-types like what Hejduk used to be, or a power forward-type like Stewart. McGinn and Jones have been surprisingly bad at creating traffic in front of the net and grabbing rebounds. Their offensive #s would increase no doubt if they did.
Yeah, I can name a few 7th rounders as well. But it's not like they are all Webers. I think there are maybe 3-4 players from every 2nd round who actually becomes someone who can play in the NHL for several years. Even first round picks are insanely overrated around here.

I agree that we don't really have a top sniper right now. But a team like Boston doesn't really have that either. I think Sherman wants to build a team who has three stong lines instead of the traditionell strong top 6. At least if we keep our three good centerman. Parenteau 20 goals, Landeskog 20 goals, McGinn 15, Jones 15, Downie 15, Hejduk 15 etc. Depth scoring instead of relying on a couple of snipers. It mostly depends on how we want to build this team.

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03-24-2013, 05:20 PM
  #160
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I don't know if it's a Sherman thing and who knows if the players will be any good but I hate how we're not involved in any of the college free agent talk. Either we're not interested or the players have absolutely no interest in playing for the Avs. Either way, it's not a good thing.

Even the Oilers are up there with teams like the Wings, Canucks, Leafs, and Rangers going after the top college free agents. They even have their owner personally calling the player and recruiting him.

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03-24-2013, 05:23 PM
  #161
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I don't know if it's a Sherman thing and who knows if the players will be any good but I hate how we're not involved in any of the college free agent talk. Either we're not interested or the players have absolutely no interest in playing for the Avs. Either way, it's not a good thing.

Even the Oilers are up there with teams like the Wings, Canucks, Leafs, and Rangers going after the top college free agents. They even have their owner personally calling the player and recruiting him.
Yes we are? As far as we know anyway. Avs still work behind closed doors but Dater says we tabled the offer. And I guess that's as sure as it gets when it comes to Avs news. Sadly.

Brennan Klak ‏@nhlupdate 2h
Who could get DeKeyser? A lot of teams. ANA/COL/DET/EDM/NYR/OTT/PHI/STL at least, TOR might get in there, TB was heavily in there

I keep seeing our name regarding him though.

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03-24-2013, 05:28 PM
  #162
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Again I don't think this is really a fair assessment. PL traded Drury and never really replaced him. PL traded Morris and never really found a true two way guy like that until they brought in Quincey.

Which trades are you referring to that Sherman traded something without any plan for it's replacement? I can only assume it's the Shattenkirk trade because the replacements Sherman had in mind haven't fully developed yet. Stewarts power offensive game was replaced with Landy, Jones, McGinn, and Downie.

Other than that Varly didn't involve giving up a player. Gali's been replaced by McGinn. I guess you can say Quincey, but again there weren't many good options in the offseason. I don't see a case for saying his deals are reckless and not calculating and without a plan for replacements.
My friend, I find your constant continued unrelenting defense of Sherman (in the midst of yet another underperforming last place finish) simply astounding. I give you credit for your persistence, but do results simply not count?

In the end, Sherman has made a lot of personnel moves, but the team really isn't better. If you or anyone else wishes to again lay completely that at the feet of the coach, fine. I won't argue that anymore, but IMO if the Avs suddenly replaced Sacco with any other coach on the planet, I'm far from certain this would be a playoff team. The coach bears some responsibility, the GM bears some, and the players bear some. There are problems in all three areas, IMO.

But at the end of the day, Sherman's in charge (allegedly). It's his responsibility and his leadership has not gotten it done.

-AB, tired of the annual tanking ritual....

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03-24-2013, 05:31 PM
  #163
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Yes we are? As far as we know anyway. Avs still work behind closed doors but Dater says we tabled the offer. And I guess that's as sure as it gets when it comes to Avs news. Sadly.

Brennan Klak ‏@nhlupdate 2h
Who could get DeKeyser? A lot of teams. ANA/COL/DET/EDM/NYR/OTT/PHI/STL at least, TOR might get in there, TB was heavily in there

I keep seeing our name regarding him though.
Dater said we made an offer and McKenzie said many teams are interested but he didn't list us as a "top contender" for him. I haven't seen any of the credible reporters mention the Avs.

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03-24-2013, 05:31 PM
  #164
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The stars players or the top prospect are ALWAYS excused. EJ, Stastny, Varlamov, Elliott and others are playing bad because of Sacco, or because they are surronded by bad teammates.

Nevermind that those players are suposed to carry the team. If those guys were playing to their supposed abilities we would probably be in playoff contention.

But we cannot admit that they suck. We have to find excuses for them. It's human nature. If we admit that there is something wrong with these player our hope vanishes.
And we have a winner.

I would like to thank this poster for being able to properly articulate this simple truth.

Very well done, sir.

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03-24-2013, 05:35 PM
  #165
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I think there are a lot of posters here who admit that we suck... So I can't see any truth in that. Sometimes It's get insane here how much people whine about us being awful actually. Even if we aren't good now anyone with decent hockeybrain can see that we have the potential of having a good future ahead of us.

But even on a team that sucks, there are always a couple of players who pull their weight and shouldn't get blamed (as much) . But no I don't think EJ, Varly, Landy, Factor, Duchene, Parenteau, Stastny can take this team to the playoffs themselves. Even if they play on their highest level.

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03-24-2013, 05:36 PM
  #166
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Dater said we made an offer and McKenzie said many teams are interested but he didn't list us as a "top contender" for him. I haven't seen any of the credible reporters mention the Avs.
Cause we suck probably. Not cause we aren't pushing hard for him. And as always. Bob and TSN rarely knows what goes on in Colorado.

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03-24-2013, 05:46 PM
  #167
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Cause we suck probably. Not cause we aren't pushing hard for him. And as always. Bob and TSN rarely knows what goes on in Colorado.
Like I said, either we're not interested or the player isn't interested in playing for the Avs. Either way, that's a problem.

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03-24-2013, 05:47 PM
  #168
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Like I said, either we're not interested or the player isn't interested in playing for the Avs. Either way, that's a problem.
Fair enough. I agree.

Orginally I thought you meant that it looked like we wasn't even interested in him. But yes. It's a problem that few players wants to go here. Our future should be just as bright as Edmontons in my opinion.

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03-24-2013, 06:00 PM
  #169
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One has to remember that Dekeyser has been Wings fan he's whole life.. He saw Wings-Avs rivalry as a kid. Maybe that has some influence on whether he would like to play in Denver.. maybe.

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03-24-2013, 06:03 PM
  #170
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I think there are a lot of posters here who admit that we suck... So I can't see any truth in that.
I know of only two or three of us who don't blame damn near 100% of EJ's poor offensive play on his coach or his defense partners. Now I'm starting to see Varlamov's falloff in play blamed on his coach and said defense partners also. And I don't buy it. At least not fully. I was responding to the post above, where so many of us seem to blame the team's ills on the depth guys. And that really doesn't make sense. The "great" players need to play great, or at least to a reasonable subset of "great".

I keep hearing over and over how Sherman got the Avs "a true 1st pairing defenseman" and "a franchise goaltender". If those statements are true, such players need to overcome some adversity, play to their potential, and lead their teams. Which ours aren't doing.

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03-24-2013, 06:08 PM
  #171
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My friend, I find your constant continued unrelenting defense of Sherman (in the midst of yet another underperforming last place finish) simply astounding. I give you credit for your persistence, but do results simply not count?

In the end, Sherman has made a lot of personnel moves, but the team really isn't better. If you or anyone else wishes to again lay completely that at the feet of the coach, fine. I won't argue that anymore, but IMO if the Avs suddenly replaced Sacco with any other coach on the planet, I'm far from certain this would be a playoff team. The coach bears some responsibility, the GM bears some, and the players bear some. There are problems in all three areas, IMO.

But at the end of the day, Sherman's in charge (allegedly). It's his responsibility and his leadership has not gotten it done.

-AB, tired of the annual tanking ritual....
I find you're utter impatience astounding as well. The only personel area anyone seems to be upset with is on D, and mainly that they don't have an offensive D like Shattenkirk in 2013. That's one player. You really think a GM could have built a complete lineup without any holes in the 4th year of a complete rebuild?

I think it's completely ridiculous to think a forward group consisting of Duchene, PAP, O'Reilly, Landeskog, Stastny, Mitchell, and Downie is a bad group. I just can't wait until they bring in a couple real D, and a coach and they start to grow as a team and play to their potential further into the rebuild.

You telling me that if they draft Jones which is realistically possible now, and bring in another two way guy to play with EJ, these concerns about how this team was built, and it's D core in the shortened 2013 season are really that massive? You didn't think they'd be competing for a cup this year did you?

There are plenty of ways to improve the D. Hell they could draft Jones, and bring back Leopold on a reasonable deal as a UFA and the D is instantly improved.

Landy - Duchene - PAP
McGinn - Stastny - Jones
Mitchell - O'Reilly - Downie
Bordy - Olver - McLeod

Leopold - EJ
Hejda - Jones
Zanon - O'Brien

Scratches - Hunwick, Malone, UFA
Prospects - Hishon, Sgarbossa, Heard, Elliott, Barrie

And that's only bringing mid tier player outside the draft. You really telling me that hasn't been built into a pretty good team?

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03-24-2013, 06:17 PM
  #172
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It's not impatience to ask this team to progress rather than regress. It's not impatience to see an uproarious failure in so many aspects this season on so many levels and question if the guys in charge actually know what they're doing. And I don't think it's impatience to say that many of these failures weren't unavoidable.

And I'm partially with AB on this--EJ and Varly have not yet justified the trades used to acquire them. There could be a lot of reasons for that, but bottom line, they haven't.

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03-24-2013, 06:18 PM
  #173
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I find you're utter impatience astounding as well.
I should be patient with yet *another* tank? I'd be fine with the team nibbling on the wrong side of the playoff bubble, but this crew isn't competitive.

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The only personel area anyone seems to be upset with is on D, and mainly that they don't have an offensive D like Shattenkirk in 2013. That's one player. You really think a GM could have built a complete lineup without any holes in the 4th year of a complete rebuild?
Is that really the only hole you see?

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I think it's completely ridiculous to think a forward group consisting of Duchene, PAP, O'Reilly, Landeskog, Stastny, Mitchell, and Downie is a bad group. I just can't wait until they bring in a couple real D, and a coach and they start to grow as a team and play to their potential further into the rebuild.
Well, I sure hope you're right about the coach being such a vital cog in this mess. Because there are a number of players who aren't playing to the level that a lot of us expected.

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You telling me that if they draft Jones which is realistically possible now, and bring in another two way guy to play with EJ, these concerns about how this team was built, and it's D core in the shortened 2013 season are really that massive? You didn't think they'd be competing for a cup this year did you?
I'd settle for them simply competing in a few games in a row, at this point.

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There are plenty of ways to improve the D. Hell they could draft Jones, and bring back Leopold on a reasonable deal as a UFA and the D is instantly improved.

Landy - Duchene - PAP
McGinn - Stastny - Jones
Mitchell - O'Reilly - Downie
Bordy - Olver - McLeod

Leopold - EJ
Hejda - Jones
Zanon - O'Brien

Scratches - Hunwick, Malone, UFA
Prospects - Hishon, Sgarbossa, Heard, Elliott, Barrie

And that's only bringing mid tier player outside the draft. You really telling me that hasn't been built into a pretty good team?
Oh, my. So many assumptions in there:
- Jones playing like a 2nd line guy rather than an AHL guy.
- EJ playing like a two-way 1st pairing defenseman rather than a one-way 2nd pairing guy (his defense has been awful the last week or two, btw).
- Leopold playing like a 1st pairing anything.
- Jones being anywhere near ready for NHL defense.
- Downie staying healthy for a few weeks.

I hear what you're saying, and do wish I could find some of your positive attitude towards this thing. I confess I'm finding it difficult.

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03-24-2013, 06:22 PM
  #174
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Is there any reasons to be worried about Downies health? The knee injury was just unlucky. It's not like he has back problems for years or several concussions or something like that. Correct me if I'm wrong though?

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03-24-2013, 06:35 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by iceberg View Post
The funny thing about Avs fans here on HFboards is that ALL the blame goes to the lesser players, guys that we should not put a lot of expectations to begin with:

Zanon sucks, Hunwick sucks, O'Byrne sucks... Orr'Brien sucks!

The stars players or the top prospect are ALWAYS excused. EJ, Stastny, Varlamov, Elliott and others are playing bad because of Sacco, or because they are surronded by bad teammates.

Nevermind that those players are suposed to carry the team. If those guys were playing to their supposed abilities we would probably be in playoff contention.

But we cannot admit that they suck. We have to find excuses for them. It's human nature. If we admit that there is something wrong with these player our hope vanishes.

It is, afterall, easier to replace the coach or to change a 5-6 dmen, than to admit that your top dman, is not a #1dman (the same guy you gave up a lot to adquire). It is easier to believe that the coach is the reason behind your most expensive player's struggles.

It's more comforting to put the blame on Zanon when the goalie you gave a 1st and 2nd for, let's in a softie.
I'm not sure what HF you've been frequenting, but there is plenty of blamming of star players liek Stastny for the last few years, EJ this year, Duchene last year, who ever.

What I find more astounding on HF is that everyone thinks we gave up a Cam Neely when Stewart gets traded, and Shattenkirk has promise but, what really hurt was giving up Stewart. Then Stewart has a piss poor follow up season, and everyone loves the EJ trade. Then Stewart starts playing well for a couple months this year and it's back to we gave up Shatty AND Stewart for EJ who just isn't a top pairing defenseman.

Or the general consensus of we gave up a 1st round pick that could end up being first overall for Varlamov??? Then Varly plays well last year and is the only thing saving this team for most of this year, and the pick isn't a top one, and everyone loves the trade. Then Varly continues to get shellshocked and his confidence starts to dwindle after doing everything he can and still losing games, and it's back to "oh we have to find a way to pin this on Varly letting in a couple softies." No other goalie has done that in their career, and surely every goaltender is expected to be superman for an entire season with out any defensive system, or competent D in front of him.

More often than not it has to be black in white, and have so much importance on defining a player or a team based on such a short sample. Especially when it's proven time and time again people with these extreme opinions on the matter filp flop over and over based on the next years short term sample, and then do so again the following year.

I find it funny that posters who try to look at a situation for what it is and say EJ probably doesn't have the top end offensive potential we hoped, but with the right partner and a coach that knows how to use his defenseman, he could be much better. Potentially a solid 35-40 pt guy with great defense. That's viewed as giving him an excuse, simply by the fact you're not distilling it down to "he sucks, and he's never getting better under any circumstance."

There are plenty of people who think Stastny is not capable of playing as a top offensive contributor to be leaned on. There are plenty of people who think EJ doesn't have the offense hoped for. There are plenty of people who admit the team needs more offense from the blueline, and that Shatty would be nice to have back there. There are plenty that admit too many defensive D were brought in for this season. There are plenty that admit Varly has let in some soft goals lately.

What there aren't plenty of, is people that have a little patience, and ability to look at all the reasons for why players and this team aren't playing well, and belief that EJ, Varly, and this team aren't doomed, and their rebuild isn't a failure simply because they're struggling in the shortened 2013 season.

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