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Old
03-14-2013, 09:20 PM
  #126
TheOtherOne
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Originally Posted by Brick Top View Post
Just saying that you're lumping yourself into this alleged group of fans to which Datsyuk owes... something, apparently. Is it a required # of autographs every time he's noticed in public in Detroit, or # of pictures he has to pose for with fans before he can eat his dinner in a restaurant? How do athletes even keep track of what the general fan public wishes them to do, anyway- run online polls asking if they should retire or re-sign with the club, for how many years, incorporate a new move into the shootout repertoire, etc?
Absolutely... to an extent. Look, personally, I don't need any of it from him. I'm cool with just watching games. But in my opinion anyone with his status who has earned such a ridiculously extravagant living through entertainment does indeed have some sort of obligation to do things like sign autographs, etc, making at least some sort of nod to the people who support him.

I mean... it's not exactly a requirement per se. He could get away with being completely selfish and not doing anything for us. I just think that would make him a huge *********.

Regarding an early retirement... if he his personal reasons that are important enough to him to outweigh everything else, then that's fine. I bear him no ill will. All I'm saying he owes us is to take the organization's needs into consideration, and think it through very carefully before making a decision that will absolutely screw the team over to some degree.

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03-14-2013, 09:20 PM
  #127
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Youre right. At the trade deadline where Quincey is getting 1st rounders or 4th line center like Gaustad are getting 1st and 3rds, all the wings could get for Datsyuk is a first and a prospect.

A contender like Boston, Philly or Pittsburgh would probably give up a tonne for him. Like a high end prospect, a 1st rounder and a second rounder at least. Everyone loves Datsyuk but I dont put him or anyone above the good of the team. I would rather see him play 20 games with another team and have the wings good again in 3 years over 8 years of mediocrity

Its much more likely a really good young roster player, a good prospect and a first round pick. Guys like Couturier, Joe Morrow, Simon Despres, Kassian etc.

A shrewd GM like Holmgren I could see giving up Couturier, Laughton and a 1st for a playoff run if Philly is back contending next year. Teams would be drooling over potentially adding him for a cup run

What was the pricetag for Hossa and Kovalchuk? Two elite players in their prime?

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03-14-2013, 09:23 PM
  #128
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Absolutely... to an extent. Look, personally, I don't need any of it from him. I'm cool with just watching games. But in my opinion anyone with his status who has earned such a ridiculously extravagant living through entertainment does indeed have some sort of obligation to do things like sign autographs, etc, making at least some sort of nod to the people who support him.

I mean... it's not exactly a requirement per se. He could get away with being completely selfish and not doing anything for us. I just think that would make him a huge *********.

Regarding an early retirement... if he his personal reasons that are important enough to him to outweigh everything else, then that's fine. I bear him no ill will. All I'm saying he owes us is to take the organization's needs into consideration, and think it through very carefully before making a decision that will absolutely screw the team over to some degree.
Do you think Datsyuk owes something to Russia?
Do you think those Russia fans who buy tickets knowing that Datsyuk is bolting back to the NHL.. do you think they deserve something?

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03-14-2013, 09:38 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
What was the pricetag for Hossa and Kovalchuk? Two elite players in their prime?
Armstrong, Christensen, Esposito and a 1st. Armstrong and Esposito were both really highly thought of back then though. Armstrong was supposed to be a huge hitter that could put up 50 points and Esposito was a pretty highly touted prospect.

Kovalchuk got a top 4 dman who was young, 2 highly touted prospects and a 1st round pick.

Not all of those guys panned out but it gives the team assets for the future and it would be a hell of a lot better to get some guys like that than to have absolutely nothing to show for it

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03-14-2013, 09:40 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Do you think Datsyuk owes something to Russia?
Do you think those Russia fans who buy tickets knowing that Datsyuk is bolting back to the NHL.. do you think they deserve something?
It's about loyalty to the organization. DRW has taken care of him for the longest. I admit though that you do bring up a good point- when your loyalties are torn between two places it does become more complicated.

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03-14-2013, 09:41 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Armstrong, Christensen, Esposito and a 1st. Armstrong and Esposito were both really highly thought of back then though. Armstrong was supposed to be a huge hitter that could put up 50 points and Esposito was a pretty highly touted prospect.

Kovalchuk got a top 4 dman who was young, 2 highly touted prospects and a 1st round pick.

Not all of those guys panned out but it gives the team assets for the future and it would be a hell of a lot better to get some guys like that than to have absolutely nothing to show for it
Hell yeah it would. I hope Holland doesn't go soft and ask for future considerations or some bs. Whoever we trade with, I want them taken to the cleaners.

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03-14-2013, 09:49 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by TheOtherOne View Post
Absolutely... to an extent. Look, personally, I don't need any of it from him. I'm cool with just watching games. But in my opinion anyone with his status who has earned such a ridiculously extravagant living through entertainment does indeed have some sort of obligation to do things like sign autographs, etc, making at least some sort of nod to the people who support him.

I mean... it's not exactly a requirement per se. He could get away with being completely selfish and not doing anything for us. I just think that would make him a huge *********.

Regarding an early retirement... if he his personal reasons that are important enough to him to outweigh everything else, then that's fine. I bear him no ill will. All I'm saying he owes us is to take the organization's needs into consideration, and think it through very carefully before making a decision that will absolutely screw the team over to some degree.
I do get what you're saying. Nobody likes the pro athlete who completely takes for granted the fans who root for him, and treats people like crap. I've heard that Pavel is a nice guy who takes time out for fans, so that's cool. I just don't feel comfortable with the idea of fans putting expectations on athletes away from the field of play. They are paid well by their employers to do their jobs, and fans put in time and money to watch pro sports, and are repaid with entertainment. I don't think anyone's coming out on the short end here.

When it comes to a decision to retire, or whether or not to go back home to Russia, IMO the fans and Wings have to be far down the list of considerations. From what I've read, the NHL is a far more physical league than the KHL, so Pavel would be putting his health at risk by re-upping his deal more so than retiring or playing in Russia. With the mounting evidence of the damage concussions cause to players, he may want to avoid getting tagged with a Raffi Torres head shot at age 37 or 38 which could cause long term damage.

Not saying he's shying away from the physical side of hockey, but there's probably a desire to be healthy as he grows older and to be there for his daughter. I don't think he owes the Wings anything as far as extending his time with the team even though he'd rather retire/play in Russia, just to help out the transition to the next wave of talent. The A on his jersey isn't for Assistant GM.

OT but kinda related story: took my kids to a dive pizza buffet place in my town a few months ago, and there was Kirk Cousins (former MSU QB and current Redskins back-up) eating with a group of his friends. I knew he was from the west Michigan area, and had heard that he's a nice guy. He posed for a ton of pics with people there and was cool to everybody. I kinda felt bad for the constant interruptions he had during his meal, but apparently not too bad; on my way out, I asked him to hold out from training camp, demand a trade, and orchestrate a move to Philly (I'm a big Eagles fan). He laughed b/c I doubt the high school girls wanting his picture were asking him that kind of thing, and asked me about the Eagles QB and coach situation (pre-Chip Kelly hire, my answer for both was "not good"). Anyway, my point is that I don't think he was able to even enjoy his dinner while it was warm due to getting swarmed by fans (and the occasional smart-ass ).

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03-14-2013, 10:25 PM
  #133
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Hell yeah it would. I hope Holland doesn't go soft and ask for future considerations or some bs. Whoever we trade with, I want them taken to the cleaners.
Yeah I should clarify that. I'm not saying trade him for whatever the wings could get but the package he would get would be substantial and set the wings up for a long time or help a lot anyways. You obviously dont trade a guy like Datsyuk for a bag of pucks but you dont delay a rebuild an extra 4 or 5 years for the sentimental value of 20 games with another team either

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03-14-2013, 11:13 PM
  #134
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He doesn't owe us anything, it is his choice and right as a free agent. It will shape how he is remembered, the reference to Barry Sanders is an interesting one. While Barry remains popular and celebrated in Detroit, the affection people have for him isn't nearly what it seemed like it would be, considering some people feel like he quit the team and city before he had to.
I'm still bitter about Sanders retiring how he did. Should have completely shattered the NFL career rushing record.

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Old
03-14-2013, 11:24 PM
  #135
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Armstrong, Christensen, Esposito and a 1st. Armstrong and Esposito were both really highly thought of back then though. Armstrong was supposed to be a huge hitter that could put up 50 points and Esposito was a pretty highly touted prospect.

Kovalchuk got a top 4 dman who was young, 2 highly touted prospects and a 1st round pick.

Not all of those guys panned out but it gives the team assets for the future and it would be a hell of a lot better to get some guys like that than to have absolutely nothing to show for it
Espo's stock was WAYYYYYY down by then.

The Thrashers gave up the superstar in the deal.
Then they gave up Pascal Dupuis...who scored 24 goals last year and has been a good depth player for the Penguins.

In return, the Thrashers got Colby Armstrong (1G 2A last year)
Erik Christensen (scrub)
Esposito (never played an NHL game)

Pascal Dupuis has scored 62 goals since the trade.
More than Christensen. More than Esposito. More than Armstrong.
Looks like they drafted Daulton Leveille with their draft pick (O games played)

For Kovalchuk and Salmela

The Thrashers received

Bergfors -- in the KHL for two years now.
Cormier - Still young, but far from bluechip.
Johnny Oduya - Decent depth defenseman,
First round pick - packaged for Byfuglien

So spare me the talk about how we're going to get rich.

Even if we got a good prospect, we could bury him in the AHL until he's 24 and ruin him.

In strict asset management terms, if you can get a PROVEN youngster with some kind of track record, then you can make that argument.

But in terms of fan management, you don't trade a Datsyuk

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03-14-2013, 11:29 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
But in terms of fan management, you don't trade a Datsyuk
Espos stock wasnt way down at that point, he was still a solid prospect just off the world juniors I believe but regardless why dont you trade a Datsyuk if hes just going to walk?

Leafs didnt trade Sundin and look at how far set back they were by that. The Flames have been mediocre for years now because they refuse to move Iginla. Spare me your sentimental feelings about a player you like. Datsyuk is probably my favourite player but I would rather see him in a different jersey and get 3 or 4 good peices for the 20 games he spends in a different jersey

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03-14-2013, 11:34 PM
  #137
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I would hope that Pavel sticks with us for another 2-3 years and then heads over to Russia. He definately deserves to do whatever he wants to do though.

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03-14-2013, 11:35 PM
  #138
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Espos stock wasnt way down at that point, he was still a solid prospect just off the world juniors I believe but regardless why dont you trade a Datsyuk if hes just going to walk?

Leafs didnt trade Sundin and look at how far set back they were by that. The Flames have been mediocre for years now because they refuse to move Iginla. Spare me your sentimental feelings about a player you like. Datsyuk is probably my favourite player but I would rather see him in a different jersey and get 3 or 4 good peices for the 20 games he spends in a different jersey
Because he's a lifelong Red Wing who exemplifies Red Wing hockey.

This isn't about my sentimentalism. This is about honoring a franchise type player who, arguably, deserves to have his number retired by the organization.

Players who spend their entire team with one team are rare.

Stars who spend their entire team with one team are even more rare.

The Sundin comparison is Bogus.
For one, Sundin was TRADED to Toronto. He wasn't a lifelong Leaf. For two, Sundin never won a damn thing in Toronto.
And finally, the idea that not trading Sundin set the Leafs back is a joke. Nobody knows what the Leafs would have got. Maybe they would have gotten a great player. More than likely, they wouldn't have.


Esposito's stock was WAY down.
Guy was consensus #1 overall and kept slipping.
He was a good gamble pick at 20 -- but some had him slipping into the second and third round. The guy was underwhelming after his draft year and proved his critics right.

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03-14-2013, 11:44 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
Espos stock wasnt way down at that point, he was still a solid prospect just off the world juniors I believe but regardless why dont you trade a Datsyuk if hes just going to walk?

Leafs didnt trade Sundin and look at how far set back they were by that. The Flames have been mediocre for years now because they refuse to move Iginla. Spare me your sentimental feelings about a player you like. Datsyuk is probably my favourite player but I would rather see him in a different jersey and get 3 or 4 good peices for the 20 games he spends in a different jersey
Espo finally made the 2009 World Juniors after being traded to Atlanta. He didn't make the cut with the 2006, 2007 or 2008 teams. His stock wasn't just down at the time of the trade to Atlanta, it had been on a downward trajectory since being touted as a possible #1 overall pick heading into the season preceding the 2007 draft.

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03-14-2013, 11:52 PM
  #140
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According to Capgeek, Datsyuk has a partial NTC, so he's got some say over what happens. If you know he's going to Russia, or at least that he won't re-sign here, I think Holland has to at least field offers on the guy. If something he can't say no to comes along, take it to Datsyuk and see if he wants to go. The only thing I wouldn't do is move Datsyuk without his input.

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03-15-2013, 12:39 AM
  #141
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According to Capgeek, Datsyuk has a partial NTC, so he's got some say over what happens. If you know he's going to Russia, or at least that he won't re-sign here, I think Holland has to at least field offers on the guy. If something he can't say no to comes along, take it to Datsyuk and see if he wants to go. The only thing I wouldn't do is move Datsyuk without his input.
I think the price would have to be very high, well above the "actual" value at the time. Datsyuk has been the most iconic Wings player of the post-lockout Red Wings i.e. the better part of a decade. Trading him would bring fan morale to an absolute low point, so it really has to be something special on offer.

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03-15-2013, 01:36 AM
  #142
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Playing with complete garbage must be pretty boring.

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03-15-2013, 07:27 AM
  #143
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Espo's stock was WAYYYYYY down by then.

The Thrashers gave up the superstar in the deal.
Then they gave up Pascal Dupuis...who scored 24 goals last year and has been a good depth player for the Penguins.

In return, the Thrashers got Colby Armstrong (1G 2A last year)
Erik Christensen (scrub)
Esposito (never played an NHL game)

Pascal Dupuis has scored 62 goals since the trade.
More than Christensen. More than Esposito. More than Armstrong.
Looks like they drafted Daulton Leveille with their draft pick (O games played)

For Kovalchuk and Salmela

The Thrashers received

Bergfors -- in the KHL for two years now.
Cormier - Still young, but far from bluechip.
Johnny Oduya - Decent depth defenseman,
First round pick - packaged for Byfuglien

So spare me the talk about how we're going to get rich.

Even if we got a good prospect, we could bury him in the AHL until he's 24 and ruin him.

In strict asset management terms, if you can get a PROVEN youngster with some kind of track record, then you can make that argument.

But in terms of fan management, you don't trade a Datsyuk
This is the outcome of most superstar trades for prospects/picks and a reason I am willing to trade for proven bigger names.

I also wouldnt want to trade Datsyuk for some picks and prospects that most likely wont turn into anything. If we got him part way through his career then I would be more willing to move him for some possible pieces.

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03-15-2013, 07:46 AM
  #144
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Should the Wings have traded Lidstrom last year?
Should the Wings have traded Fedorov? Yzerman? Shanahan?

There are certain players you don't move unless they want to go.

Datsyuk/Zetterberg are those guys.

10 years from nobody is going to care if the Flames got a first round pick for Iginla.

That first round pick may or may not become an NHLer.

But what Flames fans will take pride in is a life-long Flame.
Captain, I agree with a lot of your posts. It's good to read the opinions and recollections of someone who has been watching the team for a good number of years. Haven't read the rest of the thread yet.

However, as you likely recall..Nieuwendyk was traded for Iginla. Worked out great for both teams and maybe goes against your opinion on this.

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03-15-2013, 07:58 AM
  #145
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Except that Iginla was acquired by the Flames through... trading an eight-year Calgary vet who had won a Calder and was the face of the franchise at the time...heck he even went on to win a Cup in Dallas AND was Conn Smythe winner that year...

But how many Flames fans would remember that today? No they remember Iginla and his many contributions.

Obviously no guarantee you get an Iginla out of the magic bean youngster Datsyuk could return... but in 10 years would you grieve trading Pavel if he did bring your next cornerstone back... I think probably not.
Exactly. Was wondering if someone else would make the connection.

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03-15-2013, 08:32 AM
  #146
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You guys are forgetting that no team is going to want to trade the farm for an elite player who will only stay one year.

Frankly, we wouldn't get much for Datsyuk because of that and I'm disgusted we're even talking about this. Datsyuk has been nothing short of phenomenal for us, and although I want him to stay, if he wants to leave to go back to Russia, we should accept that and appreciate what he's given us. Not pimp him out in a crass attempt to get assets. Let him leave the NHL with some dignity.

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03-15-2013, 08:35 AM
  #147
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I'd rather we trade assets to get some elite finisher to play on his wing, let him have some fun, and unleash him on the NHL to his full potential and win the cup. Because that's what it's all about, right?

I'd rather lose assets and win the Cup next year than keep assets, lose the Cup, and hope we're good in 10 years when those assets develop.

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03-15-2013, 08:41 AM
  #148
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I'd rather we trade assets to get some elite finisher to play on his wing, let him have some fun, and unleash him on the NHL to his full potential and win the cup. Because that's what it's all about, right?

I'd rather lose assets and win the Cup next year than keep assets, lose the Cup, and hope we're good in 10 years when those assets develop.
Win a cup? Next year?

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03-15-2013, 09:08 AM
  #149
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Win a cup? Next year?
Doesn't take long in this league to rebound from year to year. Case in point: Montreal.

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03-15-2013, 09:28 AM
  #150
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Win a cup? Next year?
Could be just two biggish-name signings (and shedding some dead weight) away.

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