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Hypothetically, If Van wanted to move up in the draft.

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04-07-2005, 09:20 PM
  #1
Attica
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Hypothetically, If Van wanted to move up in the draft.

If vancouver wanted to move up in thr draft, lets say to somewhere in the 5th-10th overall position, what would it take. I'll start out by offering:

To PHX: Vancouvers 2nd round pick 2005, Bryan Allen.

Pheonix gets an top 4 quality young d-man, (a 4th overall pick) and a Second rounder for Pheonixs 5th overall pick.

To Van: 5th overall pick.

Canucks use the 5th overall pick to draft one of either Brule, Johnson, Ryan, Pouliot, depending on who's left.

Am I way off on this one?

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04-07-2005, 09:36 PM
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I honestly don't believe the Canucks can trade Bryan Allen. He's developing nicely (albeit slowly) but he is turning out to be a solid dman. The Canucks need physical players on their blueline, and Allen provides that, unlike Sopel, Malik and Salo.

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04-07-2005, 10:05 PM
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It will take at least one more first rounder for teams to pull the trigger. I don't think it will be worth it for Vancouver.

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04-07-2005, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attica
If vancouver wanted to move up in thr draft, lets say to somewhere in the 5th-10th overall position, what would it take. I'll start out by offering:

To PHX: Vancouvers 2nd round pick 2005, Bryan Allen.

Pheonix gets an top 4 quality young d-man, (a 4th overall pick) and a Second rounder for Pheonixs 5th overall pick.

To Van: 5th overall pick.

Canucks use the 5th overall pick to draft one of either Brule, Johnson, Ryan, Pouliot, depending on who's left.

Am I way off on this one?
Phoenix has a lot of talented young blueliners in their system including Mara, Tanabe, Ballard, Spiller, Morris, Gauthier, Stephanson, etc.. While Allen adds a strong physical presence that I think they would want, I can't see that being enough of an incentive to trade away a potential impact player draft pick. A #4 d man and a project type pick is not enough when you consider that they may have the opportunity to select someone who could be a top line player. Besides, a forward prospect such as Pouliot would better compliment their future needs depth wise given there relatively strong depth at defense.

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04-07-2005, 10:11 PM
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I think the Nucks need to keep Allen. He will be a good defenseman. He's getting there slowly but surely. They are a good enough team at the moment.

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04-08-2005, 12:02 AM
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I appreciate the feedback, so what do you all think it would take to move up to the 5-10th OV spot?

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04-08-2005, 01:25 AM
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Bryan Allen would certainly get a lot of teams' attention, but I don't believe they want to move up if that is the cost.

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04-08-2005, 01:29 AM
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unless the canucks want to rebuild (i doubt they do) theres no incentive for them to move up, because the price will be high and its not worthwhile for a contending team.

 
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04-08-2005, 01:46 AM
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No trading Allen. We have been waiting patiently for him to develop...why deal him now? He is the type of player we have been missing for a LONG time.

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04-08-2005, 01:53 AM
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I think when looking at this trade you have to think about how much better the #5 pick will be than the #20 or so pick. Since this year is amazingly deep, I don't think there'll be that big a difference (for example, Mcardle has been rated between 9 and 28). Guys like Bertram, Stall, and Cogliano, will probably go later in the first round (although Stall has moved up like 15 spots in most people's recent draft lists recently) and IMO have a very good chance of being better NHLers then Ryan, Johnson, and Poulliot.

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04-08-2005, 01:58 AM
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Bryan Allen and Ryan Kesler are the two players in the Canucks system that would be attractive to a rebuilding team imo. But considering how important both of them are to the Canucks future (and present for that matter) I don't think they'd be worth giving up for a pick in the #5 to #10 region (ie. for a player nowhere near guaranteed to be better than the asset they'd be giving up.)

If the Canucks were going to move up, I'd prefer to see them go up to the mid to late teens so they could snag McArdle.

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04-08-2005, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attica
I appreciate the feedback, so what do you all think it would take to move up to the 5-10th OV spot?
Any deal, IMO, would require the addition of Vancouver's 1st pick PLUS another player. Players that Vancouver may be willing to part with are: Salo, Sopel, Malik, Reid, King, Koltsov, Ruttuu, Chubarov and any number of guys in their system.

That said, I don't know if anyone of these guys, coupled with their 1st pick would even get us close to a first round pick in the mid 5-10 spot.

In other words, I don't know if the Canucks can move up....not without trading away an asset that they need (Kesler/Auld/Allen).

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04-08-2005, 11:18 AM
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Canucks can't afford to part with any of their younger, past-prospect status players, especially Allen who looks like the most promising. Canucks simply suck when it comes to prospects so they need to keep all their current young players.

If some cup-running team is willing to take older players like Malik, Sopel or Salo for a cup run in exchange for picks/prospects, then it's a different case.

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04-08-2005, 12:34 PM
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Why would Phoenix trade their first round pick(#5-12/14-depending upon how the NHL determines draft position/4 or 3 or 2 year standings)for Bryan Allen and Vancouver 2nd round pick in 60-70 range(factoring in the compensatory picks)?

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04-08-2005, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy
Why would Phoenix trade their first round pick(#5-12/14-depending upon how the NHL determines draft position/4 or 3 or 2 year standings)for Bryan Allen and Vancouver 2nd round pick in 60-70 range(factoring in the compensatory picks)?
From Phoenix's point of view I would do that deal in a heartbeat. Allen, IMO, is worth the first pick by himself. This kid is a stud. A player that you build a team around. You don't deal away top 2 d-men everyday.

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04-08-2005, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter
From Phoenix's point of view I would do that deal in a heartbeat. Allen, IMO, is worth the first pick by himself. This kid is a stud. A player that you build a team around. You don't deal away top 2 d-men everyday.
#1 - Allen is not a top 2 defenseman right now and could easily never be one. If anything, he seems to be a 3/4 physical guy right now and the Coyotes have a ton of D-men who are top 1-2 guys and a bunch with similar potential to Allen.

I would not build my team around Allen. He WOULD be part of the core BUT not a major part at this point.

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04-08-2005, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
#1 - Allen is not a top 2 defenseman right now and could easily never be one. If anything, he seems to be a 3/4 physical guy right now and the Coyotes have a ton of D-men who are top 1-2 guys and a bunch with similar potential to Allen.

I would not build my team around Allen. He WOULD be part of the core BUT not a major part at this point.
Who are the "ton of D-men who are top 1-2 guys" Phoenix has?
Who are the "bunch [of guys] with similar potential to Allen"?

The Coyotoes have:
Paul Mara
Derek Morris
Radoslav Suchy
Cale Hulse
David Tanabe
Brad Ference
Todd Reirden
Bryan Helmer
Goran Bezina
Matthew Spiller
Igor Knayzev

Only Paul Mara and Derek Morris are #1-2 defensemen who are better than Allen as of right now. Tanabe is on the same level as Allen and is offensively-gifted as Allen is defensively-gifted. None of the others from Ference to Helmer is as good as Allen is right now. Spiller despite being big and Knayzev despite being defensively solid, have the potential of Allen. Allen isn't a star youngster but he'd certainly be someone the Coyotes would drool over.

Mara - Allen
Morris - Suchy
Tanabe - Hulse

That would be a great defense one day: especially if you consider that Spiller and Knayez may develop into NHL'ers one day as well.

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04-08-2005, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
Who are the "ton of D-men who are top 1-2 guys" Phoenix has?
Who are the "bunch [of guys] with similar potential to Allen"?

The Coyotoes have:
Paul Mara
Derek Morris
Radoslav Suchy
Cale Hulse
David Tanabe
Brad Ference
Todd Reirden
Bryan Helmer
Goran Bezina
Matthew Spiller
Igor Knayzev

Only Paul Mara and Derek Morris are #1-2 defensemen who are better than Allen as of right now. Tanabe is on the same level as Allen and is offensively-gifted as Allen is defensively-gifted. None of the others from Ference to Helmer is as good as Allen is right now. Spiller despite being big and Knayzev despite being defensively solid, have the potential of Allen. Allen isn't a star youngster but he'd certainly be someone the Coyotes would drool over.

Mara - Allen
Morris - Suchy
Tanabe - Hulse

That would be a great defense one day: especially if you consider that Spiller and Knayez may develop into NHL'ers one day as well.
last years list?

They now have guathier back there as well...filling the need for Allen.

Allen is going to be a good defenseman. I say he occupies the #4/5 spot on his team for his career.


Now, if the 5th overall pick can be had for that package...then Detroit offers its 2nd and Fischer.

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04-08-2005, 01:59 PM
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Wow, Allen is all of a sudden a #1 pairing defenseman... have I been in a coma?

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04-08-2005, 01:59 PM
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Coyotes also have Keith Ballard and Fredrik Sjostrom but the former is an offensive defenseman and the latter is being called a bust (but I think it's way too early to write him off based on a single poor AHL season).

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04-08-2005, 02:03 PM
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I find it a little ironic that Allen was a former #4 overall

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04-08-2005, 02:45 PM
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From the Coyote perspective.

We have a fairly promising young defense. Allen would add to that promise but would create an immediate logjam as someone would likely have to be moved to make room. They would be making a trade to facilitate another trade which is plausible but difficult.

The bottom line is that Phoenix's long-term need is at forward. Unless they are offered something more appealing than a chance to draft Ryan, Pouillet, Latendresse, etc. there is no reason to make the deal. There's potential for them to drop down a few spots but I think they would be hesitant to look at anything that didn't have a first rounder coming back the other way.

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04-08-2005, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by pavel datsyuk
Now, if the 5th overall pick can be had for that package...then Detroit offers its 2nd and Fischer.
I doubt Detroit would do that trade...

And I can't see Vancouver trading a former 4th overall who is just now starting to develop for a 5th overall who will only be beginning his development (and still has bust potential)

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04-08-2005, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by kmad
Coyotes also have Keith Ballard and Fredrik Sjostrom but the former is an offensive defenseman and the latter is being called a bust (but I think it's way too early to write him off based on a single poor AHL season).
Sjostrom is far from a bust, and he's not a dman, so it doesn't really add up here anyways... he's a young winger with definitely top 6 potential.

I think most teams in the league would want to have a dman like Allen - but I don't think his value is there that you can get a top 5 pick in a deep draft for him... his progression has been slow - and whatever factors you want to cite for that, fact is that he has progressed slowly, and this will affect his value.

I would probably deal Allen and our 1st for Brule... probably Johnson as well... (I don't think you could get that for Allen and a 1st, but that's a different matter
)... but beyond that, not sure it's really worth it for the canucks... Allen fills a need for us, which is much more important than what a #5 pick does for us now.... and with the CBA situation, and Malik and Salo possibly hitting UFA status, keeping Allen around is that much more important.

From Phoenix's POV, I don't see them making a move like this, no matter how much they like Allen... a top 5 pick is much more useful there. Their team is deep right now, and guys like Gauthier fill the same role as a guy like Allen does... while Allen could be twice the dman in a few years, Phoenix doesn't have to worry about that... why not take the #5pick and a potential star player instead?

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04-08-2005, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO
Sjostrom is far from a bust, and he's not a dman, so it doesn't really add up here anyways... he's a young winger with definitely top 6 potential.
My mistake. Lots of the time I post without looking stuff up

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