I see where you are coming from, I just don't have the same view. I understand it can create problems down the road, but if you have a chance to get the guy you think will put your team over the top, I think you do it. If they make a deal now where they trade picks for someone, it most likely would not be a good deal. I would not be ok with that. If they were Cup contenders, trading picks for that same player is a completely different story. Trading those picks might contribute to cap issues down the road, but those cap issues might be irrelevant if those draft picks turn into nobodies. And again, I would rather risk dealing with those cap issues down the road in exchange for a better shot a Cup.
Do you think the Flyers should be "buying" players with draft picks this season?
Morrow is a UFA after this season, I'd imagine he's been targeted as an FA target rather than a trade target. It would make sense to pay close attention to how much he has left in the tank.
Bob McKenzie @TSNBobMcKenzie
College UFA 6-foot-8 D Andrej Sustr will cull list of 20 to 25 interested NHL teams tomorrow and Friday, likely to sign by weekend.
How about bringing Chris Neil to here with defensive prospect or Bishop. Neil could be perfect match to our third line with Couts.
There's been speculation, but I don't think anyone has provided a credible link. The thread(s) on the Trade Forum sort of fell apart--it is obvious that Flyers and Senators fans hold very different valuations of Read.
Given Couturier's struggles, I'd prefer to see him paired with more offensively gifted linemates.
Neil is a pretty important "glue" guy in OTT, and I can't see why they would move him ahead of a playoff run. (Though the prospect of aNeil - Cousins - Rinaldo line is sort of fun...for us.)
How about bringing Chris Neil to here with defensive prospect or Bishop. Neil could be perfect match to our third line with Couts.
Would not like that deal with Neil involved. As long as Ottawa are in playoff contention I am thinking they value what Neil brings to their team.
I do have interest in Bishop tho, but right now I am pretty hesitant to part with Read.
How about bringing Chris Neil to here with defensive prospect or Bishop. Neil could be perfect match to our third line with Couts.
Honestly, I think the Flyers should do everything in their power to resign Read. I've never been shy about glowing over him, but the dude is one the most versatile players in the NHL. He can play any forward position on any line and in any role, whether that be a scorer, playmaker, or a defensive guy. Those kind of guys are invaluable to cup teams. He's the Flyer's very own version of Patrick Sharp or Rich Peverley.
But if they had to trade him because they just don't think he can fit salary wise, I would want a young puck moving defenseman. Obviously, Read can't fetch a potential top two guy, but he could certainly get someone that projects as a second pair guy.
There's been speculation, but I don't think anyone has provided a credible link. The thread(s) on the Trade Forum sort of fell apart--it is obvious that Flyers and Senators fans hold very different valuations of Read.
Given Couturier's struggles, I'd prefer to see him paired with more offensively gifted linemates.
Neil is a pretty important "glue" guy in OTT, and I can't see why they would move him ahead of a playoff run. (Though the prospect of aNeil - Cousins - Rinaldo line is sort of fun...for us.)
Way too much is made about Read's age on the mainboards, and if he ever will develop more. What else do they want from the guy? A twenty-five goal scorer as versatile as Read is a very valuable player in the league. And I see no reason why he can't keep doing that into his early thirties.
Honestly, I think the Flyers should do everything in their power to resign Read. I've never been shy about glowing over him, but the dude is one the most versatile players in the NHL. He can play any forward position on any line and in any role, whether that be a scorer, playmaker, or a defensive guy. Those kind of guys are invaluable to cup teams. He's the Flyer's very own version of Patrick Sharp or Rich Peverley.
But if they had to trade him because they just don't think he can fit salary wise, I would want a young puck moving defenseman. Obviously, Read can't fetch a potential top two guy, but he could certainly get someone that projects as a second pair guy.
I'd rather keep read as well, but I think a read for Rundblad swap could actually be beneficial to both teams.
I see where you are coming from, I just don't have the same view. I understand it can create problems down the road, but if you have a chance to get the guy you think will put your team over the top, I think you do it. If they make a deal now where they trade picks for someone, it most likely would not be a good deal. I would not be ok with that. If they were Cup contenders, trading picks for that same player is a completely different story. Trading those picks might contribute to cap issues down the road, but those cap issues might be irrelevant if those draft picks turn into nobodies. And again, I would rather risk dealing with those cap issues down the road in exchange for a better shot a Cup.
Here's the problem though and this is where the Flyers are getting caught. They'll sign someone to a contract. They run out of cap space. They need to move a player to create cap space, but they end up having to send an asset like a draft pick along with the player and it comes back to cause issues. The problem isn't necessarily moving draft picks to acquire players, it's moving draft picks to get rid of the cap hits that hurt. Part of the problem I have with Holmgren is that when he became GM of the club, he had an inordinate amount of depth and draft picks at his disposal. Under his watch, he's managed to rid the organization of that depth and picks. On top of it, the guy makes whole sale changes practically every year. I can't think of a season where he hasn't left the roster in tact and made minor additions or subtractions. Some years, he just needed to leave the team alone and he never stopped with the changes.
Holmgren blew the rebuild when he had the opportunity to do it properly by going for the quick fix. The quick fix caught up and the Flyers are now in the state they're in. Honestly, I wish they would have initially did the rebuild properly instead of rushing things along. They'd probably be in much better shape if they did.
Do you think the Flyers should be "buying" players with draft picks this season?
If you read my post you will see that the answer is in the very post you are responding to. But I will say it again. No, it would not be a good idea to do that this year. I am not, nor have I ever been, of the opinion that draft picks are worthless. But, if the team is contending for a Cup, I would rather see them trade picks for roster players (even overpay to a certain extent) for a better shot at a Cup. I understand your opinion that you would rather keep the picks and hope they turn into the roster players that would be acquired. I just don't agree with that.
Here's the problem though and this is where the Flyers are getting caught. They'll sign someone to a contract. They run out of cap space. They need to move a player to create cap space, but they end up having to send an asset like a draft pick along with the player and it comes back to cause issues. The problem isn't necessarily moving draft picks to acquire players, it's moving draft picks to get rid of the cap hits that hurt. Part of the problem I have with Holmgren is that when he became GM of the club, he had an inordinate amount of depth and draft picks at his disposal. Under his watch, he's managed to rid the organization of that depth and picks. On top of it, the guy makes whole sale changes practically every year. I can't think of a season where he hasn't left the roster in tact and made minor additions or subtractions. Some years, he just needed to leave the team alone and he never stopped with the changes.
That has happened how many times? Upshall is the only one I remember off hand (not saying it never happened, I just don't remember any other ones).
Quote:
Holmgren blew the rebuild when he had the opportunity to do it properly by going for the quick fix. The quick fix caught up and the Flyers are now in the state they're in. Honestly, I wish they would have initially did the rebuild properly instead of rushing things along. They'd probably be in much better shape if they did.
Before I respond, what "rebuild" are you talking about? His first season? The Richards/Carter moves? Something else?
Frank Seravelli thinks we should trade our 3rd for Jagr?
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...If you’re Paul Holmgren, is sending a third round pick (which could essentially end up being a late second rounder depending on where the Flyers finish) worth seeing if Jagr is exactly what the Flyers are missing?
For my money, Jagr changes everything about the way Giroux plays the game. Jagr is able to win battles along the boards, hang onto the puck and find the open man. He is strong and commands respect from defenses, even at his advanced age.
Plus, Jagr has no baggage, and is already comfortable in Philadelphia and with Giroux.
For a third round pick, if that’s the price, it’s worth experimenting whether Jagr can get the Flyers over the hump and into the playoffs. Especially for a team which has dangled draft picks like candy over the years.
If you read my post you will see that the answer is in the very post you are responding to. But I will say it again. No, it would not be a good idea to do that this year. I am not, nor have I ever been, of the opinion that draft picks are worthless. But, if the team is contending for a Cup, I would rather see them trade picks for roster players (even overpay to a certain extent) for a better shot at a Cup. I understand your opinion that you would rather keep the picks and hope they turn into the roster players that would be acquired. I just don't agree with that.
There's the difference in opinion right there though. This team is not competing for the cup next season or the season after that. There's many reasons why: the lack of depth, a poorly built defensive unit, sub-standard goaltending, and lack of experience in key positions just to name a few. They have a lot of talent in some areas, but they seriously need to address some glaring holes if this group is to become a cup team. Part of the way to achieve that is to re-stock the farm system and fill organizational holes from within, not continually chasing guys with your draft picks to fill those holes.
If you read my post you will see that the answer is in the very post you are responding to. But I will say it again. No, it would not be a good idea to do that this year. I am not, nor have I ever been, of the opinion that draft picks are worthless. But, if the team is contending for a Cup, I would rather see them trade picks for roster players (even overpay to a certain extent) for a better shot at a Cup. I understand your opinion that you would rather keep the picks and hope they turn into the roster players that would be acquired. I just don't agree with that.
I never once said I dont like trading draft picks for roster players. The Grossman trade was a very solid deal. I think Holmgren overpaid for Kubina. If you are going to "overpay" for a player make sure its the right guy. not a guy with little to nothing left in the tank like Kubina.
I'd rather keep read as well, but I think a read for Rundblad swap could actually be beneficial to both teams.
I would actually be really open to that idea. He's the type of guy that you expect for a guy like Read. Some of of the offers from the main board have proven how seriously undervalued Read is league-wide.
I dont really see the point I guess. I look at it from the "we are not in playoffs" point of view and the last two drafts we picked up Cousins and Gostisbehere. Obliviously dont know how they will turn out in the future but one was 3rd in the OHL in points and the other was on the USWJC squad plus has had a GREAT sophomore year. We have done well in the 3rd the past two years. I'd keep our third.
I dont really see the point I guess. I look at it from the "we are not in playoffs" point of view and the last two drafts we picked up Cousins and Gostisbehere. Obliviously dont know how they will turn out in the future but one was 3rd in the OHL in points and the other was on the USWJC squad plus has had a GREAT sophomore year. We have done well in the 3rd the past two years. I'd keep our third.
Agreed.
The only question is whether Jagr would make a measurable difference in some of our younger guys' development over the next few months, but I can't see it unless the price is pretty low.
Seravelli also contradicts himself a bit. If Jagr is really focused on competing for a cup this year, wouldn't he want to go to a contender?
There's the difference in opinion right there though. This team is not competing for the cup next season or the season after that. There's many reasons why: the lack of depth, a poorly built defensive unit, sub-standard goaltending, and lack of experience in key positions just to name a few. They have a lot of talent in some areas, but they seriously need to address some glaring holes if this group is to become a cup team. Part of the way to achieve that is to re-stock the farm system and fill organizational holes from within, not continually chasing guys with your draft picks to fill those holes.
...which is why I said they shouldn't make any trades like these this year. I am defending past moves, not saying they should make certain moves in the future.
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren
I never once said I dont like trading draft picks for roster players. The Grossman trade was a very solid deal. I think Holmgren overpaid for Kubina. If you are going to "overpay" for a player make sure its the right guy. not a guy with little to nothing left in the tank like Kubina.
Hindsight is 20/20. It turned out to be a bad trade. Kubina was not the missing piece. At the time, he was what the team needed. A big, right handed shot, with some offensive ability. They overpaid for him, and it burned them. Was it a gross overpayment? No, the fourth rounder probably shouldn't have been thrown in. That sucks, but again, that is the risk I am willing to take.
This is the part where you say that the second rounder alone would have been an overpayment and talk about how stupid Homer is, and then I disagree and we post conflicting examples of past deadline deals and blah blah blah. The bottom line is, trading picks at the deadline for a roster player when your team is contending for a Cup is something that I am ok for, even if it is an overpayment (within reason). If they do it this year, it is not something I am ok with.
The Flyers already made a move like this when they brought in Gagne. I think Gagne has played extremely well, and should be resigned. He has brought that veteran scoring presence to the team with some really smart play...which is what Jagr brought last year. If they think that's what Giroux is missing, put Gags with Vorecek and G.
Bringing Morrow or Jagr here makes no sense given the Flyers place in the standings. If they go on a tear after the break (which I dont see happening) and find themselves in 8th place at the deadline, maybe you consider it...but I still dont think it does a whole lot of good. Who would even sit out of our top 12? Fedotanko?
Here's the problem though and this is where the Flyers are getting caught. They'll sign someone to a contract. They run out of cap space. They need to move a player to create cap space, but they end up having to send an asset like a draft pick along with the player and it comes back to cause issues. The problem isn't necessarily moving draft picks to acquire players, it's moving draft picks to get rid of the cap hits that hurt. Part of the problem I have with Holmgren is that when he became GM of the club, he had an inordinate amount of depth and draft picks at his disposal. Under his watch, he's managed to rid the organization of that depth and picks. On top of it, the guy makes whole sale changes practically every year. I can't think of a season where he hasn't left the roster in tact and made minor additions or subtractions. Some years, he just needed to leave the team alone and he never stopped with the changes.
Holmgren blew the rebuild when he had the opportunity to do it properly by going for the quick fix. The quick fix caught up and the Flyers are now in the state they're in. Honestly, I wish they would have initially did the rebuild properly instead of rushing things along. They'd probably be in much better shape if they did.
He didn't do much coming out of the Stanley Cup loss except get rid of Gagne and bring in Meszaros.
I too would have liked a proper rebuild but that is impossible in this market. Hockey is a gate driven business. Flyers tickets are very expensive. They can't be crappy for many seasons without losing millions of dollars. I heard on the radio that the Sharks had 3000 less season ticket requests the year after they didn't make the playoffs. Philly is a stronger market than San Jose, but they still would lose money. Businesses don't willfully lose money.
...which is why I said they shouldn't make any trades like these this year. I am defending past moves, not saying they should make certain moves in the future.
I'm not going to get into every little detail, but there have been some moves that have been indefensible and that have led directly to issues with this current team.
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Originally Posted by Psuhockey
He didn't do much coming out of the Stanley Cup loss except get rid of Gagne and bring in Meszaros.
I too would have liked a proper rebuild but that is impossible in this market. Hockey is a gate driven business. Flyers tickets are very expensive. They can't be crappy for many seasons without losing millions of dollars. I heard on the radio that the Sharks had 3000 less season ticket requests the year after they didn't make the playoffs. Philly is a stronger market than San Jose, but they still would lose money. Businesses don't willfully lose money.
This also true though. GM's have to find that balance between annually fielding competitive teams to keep butts in the seats, and not completely mortgaging the future for just the current year.
