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Old
03-20-2013, 01:45 PM
  #526
BobbyClarkeFan16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
That has happened how many times? Upshall is the only one I remember off hand (not saying it never happened, I just don't remember any other ones).
Ned Lukacevic and Patrik Hersley for Denis Gauthier Jr and a 2nd round pick is another one.



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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Before I respond, what "rebuild" are you talking about? His first season? The Richards/Carter moves? Something else?
As for the rebuild, I'm talking about Holmgren's first season when he became GM. I have no problem that he dealt a first to Nashville for Hartnell and Timonen, it was all the other deals afterwards. The 2nd round pick for Prospal, who he had no intention of signing. It was another future 2nd round pick to move up to draft Kevin Marshall. It was a first round pick to acquire Steve Eminger. It was a first and a third to acquire Versteeg. It was the Gagne trade (even though some money was freed up, the Flyers had to take on an equally bad contract in defenseman Matt Walker, who the Flyers are still paying).

Of course, the one move that really hurt, even though he was great for two seasons, was the Pronger move. As much as I love the player, it was the wrong move at the wrong time. It cost two young roster players and two firsts. There were still other issues that needed to be addressed at the time and they went ahead and made the move. It back fired and it was the wrong move to make.

Hey, I love the fact that Holmgren can be a risk taker and he's not afraid to make moves. However, his asset management is terrible and he doesn't stick to a plan very long. To me, I think going forward, the Flyers need a GM who is willing to be patient and stick with the plan. More important, the GM needs to sell the owner on the plan as well and I don't think Holmgren sold Snider on a rebuild plan. I think he sold Snider on the quick turn around and Snider bought it hook line and sinker.

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Old
03-20-2013, 01:51 PM
  #527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Kubina isn't even hindsight, it was clearly a bad move at the time as well.
I disagree, and IIRC a couple of teams were also pursuing Kubina. I don't remember all of them but I remember something like the Red Wings and the Flyers had the highest offers at a 2nd and a 5th, but the Flyers upped their offer to a 2nd and a 4th. So take that FWIW. This might be one of those things where it seems like everyone on HF Boards was smarter than a number of NHL GMs.

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Old
03-20-2013, 01:55 PM
  #528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Ned Lukacevic and Patrik Hersley for Denis Gauthier Jr and a 2nd round pick is another one.
Ok so twice that happened.

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As for the rebuild, I'm talking about Holmgren's first season when he became GM. I have no problem that he dealt a first to Nashville for Hartnell and Timonen, it was all the other deals afterwards. The 2nd round pick for Prospal, who he had no intention of signing. It was another future 2nd round pick to move up to draft Kevin Marshall. It was a first round pick to acquire Steve Eminger. It was a first and a third to acquire Versteeg. It was the Gagne trade (even though some money was freed up, the Flyers had to take on an equally bad contract in defenseman Matt Walker, who the Flyers are still paying).
Those are from all different seasons, aren't they? Aside from the Eminger trade, and maybe the Prospal deal, those don't look all that bad.

Quote:
Of course, the one move that really hurt, even though he was great for two seasons, was the Pronger move. As much as I love the player, it was the wrong move at the wrong time. It cost two young roster players and two firsts. There were still other issues that needed to be addressed at the time and they went ahead and made the move. It back fired and it was the wrong move to make.
Totally disagree. I have no problem with the Pronger deal whatsoever. His injury sucks, and that is hurting us, but you can't call it a bad trade for that reason.

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Hey, I love the fact that Holmgren can be a risk taker and he's not afraid to make moves. However, his asset management is terrible and he doesn't stick to a plan very long. To me, I think going forward, the Flyers need a GM who is willing to be patient and stick with the plan. More important, the GM needs to sell the owner on the plan as well and I don't think Holmgren sold Snider on a rebuild plan. I think he sold Snider on the quick turn around and Snider bought it hook line and sinker.
Meh. We'll see.

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Old
03-20-2013, 02:23 PM
  #529
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
I dont really see the point I guess. I look at it from the "we are not in playoffs" point of view and the last two drafts we picked up Cousins and Gostisbehere. Obliviously dont know how they will turn out in the future but one was 3rd in the OHL in points and the other was on the USWJC squad plus has had a GREAT sophomore year. We have done well in the 3rd the past two years. I'd keep our third.
I agree. When we have the picks this team does a decent job selecting young talent and this year the draft looks to be very deep with some high end talent.

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Old
03-20-2013, 02:32 PM
  #530
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Of course, the one move that really hurt, even though he was great for two seasons, was the Pronger move. As much as I love the player, it was the wrong move at the wrong time. It cost two young roster players and two firsts. There were still other issues that needed to be addressed at the time and they went ahead and made the move. It back fired and it was the wrong move to make.
Nothing wrong with the Pronger move. He's not playing now because of a freak eye injury that could have happened to any non-visor wearing player.

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Old
03-20-2013, 02:33 PM
  #531
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3rd for Jagr would be very, very dumb at this point.

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Old
03-20-2013, 02:38 PM
  #532
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Originally Posted by PhilaFlyers View Post
3rd for Jagr would be very, very dumb at this point.
Unless they win every game between now and the deadline, it would be insane.

And the odds that this terrible even strength team wins five in a row are very low.

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Old
03-20-2013, 02:45 PM
  #533
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Additions of guys like Morrow or Jagr would seem to mean an extra few wins over the course of the regular season at most, right?

What's the point of that? It isn't going to be enough to get into the playoffs, and it could be the difference between picking 4-6 and 10-12.

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Old
03-20-2013, 03:01 PM
  #534
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Originally Posted by Hockeypete49 View Post
I agree. When we have the picks this team does a decent job selecting young talent and this year the draft looks to be very deep with some high end talent.
They might select that talent sure but don't trade it all away which is this organizations motto. They only have 5 current players playing on the roster as of Sunday that they drafted in the last 18 years.
Giroux
Rinaldo
Couturier
Gagne
Boosh
...that's pretty bad. They have zero patience for player growth.

Now some notable players currently drafted playing elsewhere...
Sbisa
JVR
Richards
Carter
Williams
Bobrovsky
Pitkanen
Seidenberg
Downie
Sharp
Zubrus
...now imagine that with Gagne and Giroux with some free agent pickups. That team would be dynamite. Just my take.

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Old
03-20-2013, 03:12 PM
  #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martz11 View Post
They might select that talent sure but don't trade it all away which is this organizations motto. They only have 5 current players playing on the roster as of Sunday that they drafted in the last 18 years.
Giroux
Rinaldo
Couturier
Gagne
Boosh
...that's pretty bad. They have zero patience for player growth.

Now some notable players currently drafted playing elsewhere...
Sbisa
JVR
Richards
Carter
Williams
Bobrovsky
Pitkanen
Seidenberg
Downie
Sharp
Zubrus
...now imagine that with Gagne and Giroux with some free agent pickups. That team would be dynamite. Just my take.
You also need to note that the from the first group, two of those players have been re-acquired. I always hate to think of that second list, especially when you consider the cup winners off of it.

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Old
03-20-2013, 03:17 PM
  #536
Jack de la Hoya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martz11 View Post
They might select that talent sure but don't trade it all away which is this organizations motto. They only have 5 current players playing on the roster as of Sunday that they drafted in the last 18 years.
Giroux
Rinaldo
Couturier
Gagne
Boosh
...that's pretty bad. They have zero patience for player growth.

Now some notable players currently drafted playing elsewhere...
Sbisa
JVR
Richards
Carter
Williams
Bobrovsky
Pitkanen
Seidenberg
Downie
Sharp
Zubrus
...now imagine that with Gagne and Giroux with some free agent pickups. That team would be dynamite. Just my take.
Many of those cases have been discussed at length, and in other cases, it was clearly not a lack of patience (you have to give to get, and when you're talking about guys who were traded a decade ago, it gets a little hard to keep the return in perspective). Some were guys who struggled here and thrived elsewhere. Would patience have made a difference? Maybe. But it also could have stunted the growth of other guys.

You're also ignoring the obvious point--you can't combine that list with the existing team, and those guys plus Gagne and Richards wouldn't leave much of a young, cost-controlled core.

The Flyers wouldn't have Couturier (or Vorcacek) and Carter at the same time. They wouldn't have either Schenn, or W. Simmonds and Richards. You can take JVR back, but you don't get to keep L. Schenn too. Bobrovsky wasn't drafted, so I'm not sure why he's included in your argument.

And have you even run the cap number for your proposed team?
Quote:
FORWARDS
Patrick Sharp ($5.900m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jeff Carter ($5.273m)
Scott Hartnell ($4.750m) / Danny Briere ($6.500m) / Justin Williams ($3.650m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Matt Read ($0.900m)
Simon Gagne ($3.500m) / Maxime Talbot ($1.750m) / Zac Rinaldo ($0.578m)
DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.000m) / Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m)
Braydon Coburn ($4.500m) / Nicklas Grossmann ($3.500m)
Joni Pitkanen ($4.500m) / Dennis Seidenberg ($3.250m)
Bruno Gervais ($0.825m) /
GOALTENDERS
Ilya Bryzgalov ($5.667m)
Brian Boucher ($0.950m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $79,691,894; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster):- $15,391,894
Many of us agree that the team has occasionally jumped the gun by trading picks more freely than they should have and perhaps was not patient enough with a few prospects (Bob), but I don't think your list makes for a particularly compelling argument.

There's also a counter-factual issue--Who's to say Giroux develops the same way if he's still buried behind Richards and Carter (while adding Sharp, keeping Gagne, etc.)?


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Old
03-20-2013, 03:41 PM
  #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
There's also a counter-factual issue--Who's to say Giroux develops the same way if he's still buried behind Richards and Carter?
Just to elaborate for those who aren't hip to logic: Counter-factual predicates are negative conditional statements, with the negative part being part of the consequent. Easiest way to read that is: "If....., then....., wouldn't have....."

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Old
03-20-2013, 03:49 PM
  #538
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Quickly skimmed the last few pages, but I have to say if $72 mio. is the going price for Giroux, I hope it's some other team that takes it. Unless the cap will continue to increase on a steady basis like thus far, that is.

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Old
03-20-2013, 03:50 PM
  #539
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
There's also a counter-factual issue--Who's to say Giroux develops the same way if he's still buried behind Richards and Carter?
I'll gladly stand up and say Giroux would develop exactly the same way, perhaps even better because he could focus on offense if we still had Richards and Carter here as defensively responsible centers.

How can I say something with such certainty? Quite easily... Giroux was never "buried" behind Richards and Carter. The last year they were all together (and the year where G really broke out), he played 19:23 per game, more than Richards, Briere, or Carter. He was the #1C, despite what people in Giroux versus Tavares threads would like to tell you. The year he put up 76 points for us, he was #1 among forwards in ice time and he has been ever since.

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Old
03-20-2013, 03:57 PM
  #540
Jack de la Hoya
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Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
I'll gladly stand up and say Giroux would develop exactly the same way, perhaps even better because he could focus on offense if we still had Richards and Carter here as defensively responsible centers.

How can I say something with such certainty? Quite easily... Giroux was never "buried" behind Richards and Carter. The last year they were all together (and the year where G really broke out), he played 19:23 per game, more than Richards, Briere, or Carter. He was the #1C, despite what people in Giroux versus Tavares threads would like to tell you. The year he put up 76 points for us, he was #1 among forwards in ice time and he has been ever since.
Sorry, I should have been more clear: Who's to say that Giroux develops the same way if we still have: Richards, Carter, Gagne, Sharp, Williams, Briere, Hartnell, etc.

I understand your point, but you can't say that with certainty, because the scenario you are talking about is itself the product of developments that the poster I was responding to would not have allowed to occur. Taken to its extreme, you could easily ask whether you would have still picked 22nd overall in 2006 had we not made the moves we had between 1999 and 2006 that the poster took issue with.

It is just an absurd notion to think that you can take back all of the things from the past that did not work out, while selectively retaining the preferred course of developments where it suits you. Heck, the poster thinks we can get Carter back and still have Couturier. I don't know how that works...

I figured the "who is to say Giroux would have developed..." was a reasonable short-hand for that.

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Old
03-20-2013, 04:11 PM
  #541
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point is we need our picks. we need more picks. maybe we can get a pick for a like new (just a few scratches), barely used this year Knuble.

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Old
03-20-2013, 05:26 PM
  #542
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point is we need our picks. we need more picks. maybe we can get a pick for a like new (just a few scratches), barely used this year Knuble.
You know there's no draft round past 7th, right?

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Old
03-20-2013, 05:30 PM
  #543
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Someone on the trade board (I don't think a Senators fan) just suggested something around Bishop and Couturier...

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Old
03-20-2013, 05:33 PM
  #544
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point is we need our picks. we need more picks. maybe we can get a pick for a like new (just a few scratches), barely used this year Knuble.
Just throw some sawdust into his transmission and maybe we can pass him off long enough for a trade!

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Old
03-20-2013, 05:39 PM
  #545
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Just throw some sawdust into his transmission and maybe we can pass him off long enough for a trade!
I think showcasing Knuble as a good TDL acquisition for the playoffs would require Pixar-level CGI.

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Old
03-20-2013, 07:30 PM
  #546
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Originally Posted by martz11 View Post
They might select that talent sure but don't trade it all away which is this organizations motto. They only have 5 current players playing on the roster as of Sunday that they drafted in the last 18 years.
Giroux
Rinaldo
Couturier
Gagne
Boosh
...that's pretty bad. They have zero patience for player growth.

Now some notable players currently drafted playing elsewhere...
Sbisa
JVR
Richards
Carter
Williams
Bobrovsky
Pitkanen
Seidenberg
Downie
Sharp
Zubrus
...now imagine that with Gagne and Giroux with some free agent pickups. That team would be dynamite. Just my take.
Don't forget Johann Hedburg

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Old
03-20-2013, 07:33 PM
  #547
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Someone on the trade board just asked for Simmonds/Voracek for Bishop, Wiercioch and a 3rd... ...

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Old
03-20-2013, 07:46 PM
  #548
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Tampa struggling!!! Stamkos to the Flyers P4! Who I am kidding, he will be in a leafs jersey by this summer.

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Old
03-20-2013, 07:50 PM
  #549
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Originally Posted by martz11 View Post
They might select that talent sure but don't trade it all away which is this organizations motto. They only have 5 current players playing on the roster as of Sunday that they drafted in the last 18 years.
Giroux
Rinaldo
Couturier
Gagne
Boosh
...that's pretty bad. They have zero patience for player growth.

Now some notable players currently drafted playing elsewhere...
Sbisa
JVR
Richards
Carter
Williams
Bobrovsky
Pitkanen
Seidenberg
Downie
Sharp
Zubrus
...now imagine that with Gagne and Giroux with some free agent pickups. That team would be dynamite. Just my take.
To nitpick, Bob wasn't drafted.

I bet you can make a list like this for most teams. The real litmus test is how many you let go for nothing or for a pittance. I hated losing Richards and Carter – won't get into that discussion again – but it was at least digestible because Holmgren maximized the return. They lost the trades of Seidenberg (Nedved), Downie (to fix the Eminger trade by getting Carle ... ugh), Sharp (Ellison) and let others (Zubrus) go. Pitkanen and change for Jason Smith and Joffrey Lupul was a good one, especially with the ire against Pitkanen at the time.

Add in the wins for Forsberg and Zhitnik and it balances out a bit.

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Old
03-20-2013, 07:55 PM
  #550
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point is we need our picks. we need more picks. maybe we can get a pick for a like new (just a few scratches), barely used this year Knuble.
Knuble was a UFA last summer. Now he's a year older, slower, and a healthy scratch and suddenly he's worth a pick?

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