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Old
03-23-2013, 07:50 PM
  #801
Jack de la Hoya
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
I wouldn't expect Holmgren to make any moves until April 3rd. There are five games between now and then, and if the team comes out hot and wins four of them, I could very easily see Holmgren being a buyer at the deadline (Bouwmeester).
I think this is why many of us have put aside whatever reservations we have about rooting for failure. If the Flyers don't want to go into traditional "seller" mode, that's fine, but no set of results over the next two weeks should convince anyone that this team is a genuine contender this year.

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03-23-2013, 07:54 PM
  #802
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
I think this is why many of us have put aside whatever reservations we have about rooting for failure. If the Flyers don't want to go into traditional "seller" mode, that's fine, but no set of results over the next two weeks should convince anyone that this team is a genuine contender this year.
I agree, but I certainly would rather the team make the playoffs than finish at the bottom of the conference. If the team does put something together in the week leading up the deadline, acquiring Bouwmeester and, say, Bishop would make me excited to see the possibility down the stretch. Contender? No, it's not gonna happen, but it would be interesting to see how the team looks with some more holes filled.

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03-23-2013, 07:54 PM
  #803
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
I wouldn't expect Holmgren to make any moves until April 3rd. There are five games between now and then, and if the team comes out hot and wins four of them, I could very easily see Holmgren being a buyer at the deadline (Bouwmeester).
Do you think we should go after Bouwmeester? What would we have to give up and can we afford him?

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03-23-2013, 07:56 PM
  #804
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Do you think we should go after Bouwmeester? What would we have to give up and can we afford him?
Do I think Bouwmeester is the right man for us (as in the guy we've been searching for)? I don't think so. But I do think he would make this team noticeably better, and for that reason, I would not be opposed to making an offer.

If the demand is what Flames fans expect, then I say no. But if he could be had for Cousins, Meszaros, and a pick, I'd be okay with it.

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03-23-2013, 07:56 PM
  #805
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If the Flyers win some games and all of a sudden are going after Boumeester, I would be totally against that. At this point I want them to get a top 5 pick.

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03-23-2013, 07:58 PM
  #806
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I don't want the flyers to go after Bouwmeester either way

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03-23-2013, 08:07 PM
  #807
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I agree, but I certainly would rather the team make the playoffs than finish at the bottom of the conference. If the team does put something together in the week leading up the deadline, acquiring Bouwmeester and, say, Bishop would make me excited to see the possibility down the stretch. Contender? No, it's not gonna happen, but it would be interesting to see how the team looks with some more holes filled.
So, what, Read + 1st for Bouwmeester, and our 2nd for Bishop? Presented with that option, I honestly think I'd rather seem them miss the playoffs.

Like I said, if they want to stand pat, that's fine, but they shouldnt' be buying. Any (valuable) future asset moved this year is a mistake, IMO.

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. But if he could be had for Cousins, Meszaros, and a pick, I'd be okay with it.
Unless that pick is our 1st, I don't think that's a particularly appealing offer.

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Old
03-23-2013, 08:16 PM
  #808
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Liles out?

Meszsaros to Toronto!

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Old
03-23-2013, 08:16 PM
  #809
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
Unless that pick is our 1st, I don't think that's a particularly appealing offer.
I don't think you're going to see Bouwmeester dealt for what Flames fans have led you to believe he's worth.

The Flames seem to have finally realized that they are a terribly built team, and they will be actively looking to pawn off their older, core players.

Obviously I'm not going to offer Read+1st, and I don't think they are going to have any team give them an offer like that in the first place, so the value is only going down from there.

A contending team will likely offer their 1st+a second tier prospect, so the 1st will be late. I think Cousins+2nd would be a base for the type of deal they are going to get. They are most certainly not going to get a deal like Read+1st from anybody.

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Old
03-23-2013, 08:24 PM
  #810
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
I don't think you're going to see Bouwmeester dealt for what Flames fans have led you to believe he's worth.

The Flames seem to have finally realized that they are a terribly built team, and they will be actively looking to pawn off their older, core players.

Obviously I'm not going to offer Read+1st, and I don't think they are going to have any team give them an offer like that in the first place, so the value is only going down from there.

A contending team will likely offer their 1st+a second tier prospect, so the 1st will be late. I think Cousins+2nd would be a base for the type of deal they are going to get. They are most certainly not going to get a deal like Read+1st from anybody.
You might be able to keep Read or the 1st out of the deal, but I can't see how you are getting Bouwmeester with only giving up the 2nd (particularly when your projecting it to be a mid- rather than early 2nd.

Calgary fans might be out to lunch (e.g., Couturier+), but Read+ or 2013 1st + is really not an unreasonable starting point for a 2/3 defenseman.

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Old
03-23-2013, 08:30 PM
  #811
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
You might be able to keep Read or the 1st out of the deal, but I can't see how you are getting Bouwmeester with only giving up the 2nd (particularly when your projecting it to be a mid- rather than early 2nd.

Calgary fans might be out to lunch (e.g., Couturier+), but Read+ or 2013 1st + is really not an unreasonable starting point for a 2/3 defenseman.
You're right, it's a perfectly reasonable starting point. But I'd like to see one contending team put up an offer comparable to Read+1st for JBo at the deadline. It's not going to happen.

And like I said, I don't envision them hanging onto Bouwmeester past the deadline, so the price is going to come down.

They can easily get a 1st+prospect from a top team, and I honestly think Cousins+2nd is a comparable offer. Cousins is as likely a bet as any player they draft in the late first round, and the 2nd allows them to still add another pick.

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Old
03-23-2013, 08:36 PM
  #812
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
You're right, it's a perfectly reasonable starting point. But I'd like to see one contending team put up an offer comparable to Read+1st for JBo at the deadline. It's not going to happen.

And like I said, I don't envision them hanging onto Bouwmeester past the deadline, so the price is going to come down.

They can easily get a 1st+prospect from a top team, and I honestly think Cousins+2nd is a comparable offer. Cousins is as likely a bet as any player they draft in the late first round, and the 2nd allows them to still add another pick.
You're overrating Cousins, and the Flyers' wouldn't be a late 1st unless they went on a run, right?

Guys around here seem to think we can get a 1st for Briere. Why do you think Calgary would give up Bouwmeester for a 2nd + a B prospect when he's not UFA?

The consensus among Flames fans seems to be that Giordano is more available than Bouwmeester.


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Old
03-23-2013, 08:48 PM
  #813
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
You're overrating Cousins, and the Flyers' wouldn't be a late 1st unless they went on a run, right?

Guys around here seem to think we can get a 1st for Briere. Why do you think Calgary would give up Bouwmeester for a 2nd + a B prospect when he's not UFA?
Guys around here think we can get a 1st for Briere because this is HFboards. Those guys are just the same as the Flames fans I'm referring to . We're not getting a 1st for Briere.


And any 20+ pick in the first round has similar odds to Cousins. How many game breakers and sure fire NHLers do you think come from those picks? I'm not overrating Cousins-- I think you're overrating the value of a bottom ten pick.

The Flames will give up Bouwmeester for that price because that's what the market will offer. Like I said, a contending team will give up their 1st+B prospect, but I don't think that's far off in value from Cousins+our 2nd. And, hey, I'll even toss in Meszaros out of the goodness of my heart


EDIT: Just caught your edit. I don't care what Flames fans think. Their team is in shambles-- anyone can and will be had. They need a total face lift, and I think management in CGY is starting to catch on.

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Old
03-23-2013, 08:59 PM
  #814
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Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Guys around here think we can get a 1st for Briere because this is HFboards. Those guys are just the same as the Flames fans I'm referring to . We're not getting a 1st for Briere.


And any 20+ pick in the first round has similar odds to Cousins. How many game breakers and sure fire NHLers do you think come from those picks? I'm not overrating Cousins-- I think you're overrating the value of a bottom ten pick.

The Flames will give up Bouwmeester for that price because that's what the market will offer. Like I said, a contending team will give up their 1st+B prospect, but I don't think that's far off in value from Cousins+our 2nd. And, hey, I'll even toss in Meszaros out of the goodness of my heart


EDIT: Just caught your edit. I don't care what Flames fans think. Their team is in shambles-- anyone can and will be had. They need a total face lift, and I think management in CGY is starting to catch on.
Well, let's just agree to disagree on the value of Cousins + 2nd for Bouwmeester. I think that's a pretty poor offer, and I'd assume CGY would hold on to Bouwmeester through next season if that was the best they had. They can always flip him next year at the deadline for a 1st as a rental (when contenders can take on his contract).

As for Giordano, my point was not so much that that would change Bouwmeester's value, but that he might be available for a significantly lower price.

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Old
03-23-2013, 09:10 PM
  #815
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There is absolutely no way I'm trading our 1st. This team is not making the playoffs.

Just as some flames fans are out to lunch ok jbos value. Some here are out to lunch if they think we're making the playoffs.

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03-23-2013, 10:14 PM
  #816
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Imagine how much beer I would have to drink to sleep at night if the Flyers go on a run, trade their 1st for JayBo, then play horribly for the rest of the year. The pick turns into a bottom 3. A superstar is picked by Calgary.

... and JayBo becomes Carle 2.0, which he is, + 30 mph on his shot.

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Old
03-23-2013, 10:32 PM
  #817
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I don't think Briere is going to waive his no trade.
He will to the right city.

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Old
03-23-2013, 11:04 PM
  #818
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I don't think Briere is going to waive his no trade.
There is, unfortunately, no incentive for him to (that we know of) as this point. He's getting ample ice time 5-on-5 and PP. If the Flyers were serious about moving Briere and he was balking at Holmgren's request, the next logical step would be to start reducing his TOI. Lord knows he isn't making a case for taking a regular shift.

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03-23-2013, 11:26 PM
  #819
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There is, unfortunately, no incentive for him to (that we know of) as this point.
The amnesty clause I see as an incentive if you will. There's no guarantee he's here next year either way. I don't know personally, but I would think getting amnestied is a hit to a player's ego.

Quote:
He's getting ample ice time 5-on-5 and PP. If the Flyers were serious about moving Briere and he was balking at Holmgren's request, the next logical step would be to start reducing his TOI. Lord knows he isn't making a case for taking a regular shift.
Benching him wouldn't exactly be helping his trade value.

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03-23-2013, 11:31 PM
  #820
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The amnesty clause I see as an incentive if you will. There's no guarantee he's here next year either way. I don't know personally, but I would think getting amnestied is a hit to a player's ego.


Benching him wouldn't exactly be helping his trade value.
Amnesty puts more money in Briere's pocket as he gets paid out then would certainly be picked up by another team. I can't speak for the ego factor; you may be right, but we don't know that. Sitting on the bench or, worse, being a healthy scratch is shame that isn't alleviated by more cash.

And I think the benching would be moot because his on-ice play isn't upping his value. Any offer for Briere at this point is completely on playoff reputation.

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Old
03-23-2013, 11:47 PM
  #821
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Amnesty puts more money in Briere's pocket as he gets paid out then would certainly be picked up by another team. I can't speak for the ego factor; you may be right, but we don't know that. Sitting on the bench or, worse, being a healthy scratch is shame that isn't alleviated by more cash.

And I think the benching would be moot because his on-ice play isn't upping his value. Any offer for Briere at this point is completely on playoff reputation.
I could be wrong but I don't think the amnesty works like that. Aren't there waivers?

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Old
03-24-2013, 12:13 AM
  #822
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I could be wrong but I don't think the amnesty works like that. Aren't there waivers?
Only for these few that were done mid-season. Offseason, no.

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03-24-2013, 12:37 AM
  #823
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Jeebus people, we need to be sellers, hardcore. No trading for JBow....stop winnin' for McKinnon.

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Old
03-24-2013, 08:10 AM
  #824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BernieParent View Post
There is, unfortunately, no incentive for him to (that we know of) as this point. He's getting ample ice time 5-on-5 and PP. If the Flyers were serious about moving Briere and he was balking at Holmgren's request, the next logical step would be to start reducing his TOI. Lord knows he isn't making a case for taking a regular shift.
A shot at a Cup is pretty good incentive.

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Old
03-24-2013, 09:10 AM
  #825
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A shot at a Cup is pretty good incentive.
How many teams that we're talking about trading Briere to are actual top contenders though? It could very well be the case that the near guarantee of a buyout this offseason (aka more $$$$ in Briere's pockets) is worth more to him than a fleeting chance @ a cup on a semi-contender. If we were trading him to Boston or Chicago or Pittsburgh or Anaheim then MAYBE I could see him waiving for the shot at the cup. But if we're trading him to a 5-8 seed, no way.

And then the problem becomes that the top contenders aren't likely to pay our asking price for Briere because most of them would need to buy him out this offseason too.

I think the ideal solution ("equilibrium", if you will) in this situation may be to trade Briere to Boston or a similar TOP contender for a 2nd + prospect + cap dump... we might even have to settle for a little less than that. Briere gets the best of both worlds, he's virtually assured of an off-season buyout just like if he was here, and he also gets to play for the cup. Meanwhile, the Flyers don't get the full value they wanted, but they also reduce the amount of $$$ they have to buyout and get something at least, instead of just letting Briere w/ a buyout in the off-season. It also opens up the possibility to re-sign Briere at a lower cap hit in the off-season, if we were so inclined / if Briere shows up for the playoffs again this season (not something I'd want them to do, but I could see them doing it).

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