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Old
03-30-2013, 12:05 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Avs71 View Post
Just to add to that, Shattenkirk only has 12 points in his last 26 games. People got so tantalized by his quick start where he had 8 points in 7 games, (which wasn't surprising since he played pro hockey during the lockout and was game ready from day 1). After 8 games it looked like the Avs traded Erik Karlsson for Aaron Miller. It's like people think he would have been a lock for 50+ points on the Avs, when in reality, he still looks like he is going to be a ~45ish point puckmover.
Yes, he's slowed (as has their team - tough team to figure out, that StL). But overall, he's still 7th or 8th in the WC amongst defensemen in scoring, and he finished last season 6th in the WC. Both this season and last, he's 14th in the entire league. So, by simple mathematics, he's producing better offensively than any defenseman on at least half the teams in the league. And doing so for the 2nd straight year. Even in his rookie season, he was a top 20 scoring defenseman.

3 straight years now with impressive offensive totals. He's for real.

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I don't think there is anything wrong with still thinking he's going to find a medium between his good defensive game that he has developed the last season and a hald, and bringing back some scoring ability from his first couple years. He is not far off from being a 35 point, strong defensively, minute eater which would be a very valuable defenceman.
About 25 of those 35 points off, if we go by current production.

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I think it is because Johnson has already showed offensive capabilities higher than what Barrie has shown, while doing it at a younger age.
Everyone keeps saying this, but he put forth that 39 point season in '09-10. Is the player the Avs have *really* the same guy? I genuinely hope so, but it he really?

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03-30-2013, 12:10 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
I think people should stop thinking about what they feel EJ should be and instead accept what he is. He's a pretty good defender on a great contract. Avs don't have to do anything but keep playing him. He's probably never going to be a 40+ point guy for us but he's going to be a mobile guy with excellent defense.
If that is a consensus, then great. That's how I see it, given EJ's play over the last 18 months. Could it change? I suppose, yes. Do I hope it changes? Definitely.

But if that is a consensus, then looking at current return, Sherman overpaid big in that trade.

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The constant focus on EJ and the trade is bizarre.
I disagree. It's probably the 2nd biggest trade the organization has ever made (arguable), and most certainly is the biggest trade they've made in their 'rebuild era'. And there is genuine question as to whether it helped or hurt the rebuild, and genuine question whether the Avs' GM overpaid in the trade.

It makes perfect sense that it would be a focus of discussion.

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03-30-2013, 12:14 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
If that is a consensus, then great. That's how I see it, given EJ's play over the last 18 months. Could it change? I suppose, yes. Do I hope it changes? Definitely.

But if that is a consensus, then looking at current return, Sherman overpaid big in that trade.



I disagree. It's probably the 2nd biggest trade the organization has ever made (arguable), and most certainly is the biggest trade they've made in their 'rebuild era'. And there is genuine question as to whether it helped or hurt the rebuild, and genuine question whether the Avs' GM overpaid in the trade.

It makes perfect sense that it would be a focus of discussion.
I really don't think so, Roy, Blake and Bourque trade were all bigger by quite a margain.

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03-30-2013, 12:21 PM
  #179
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I believe the Avs should be very careful about trading offensive talented defensemen. Else they might find themselves having a tough time scoring from the blueline someday.

I'm especially hesitant to trade offensively talented defensemen, because right now the team doesn't have one producing anything outside of the player we're talking about trading (Barrie), and we've all seen what can happen when a team dumps one or two such players without proven guys coming in to replace them. I'm kind of surprised we're even discussing this, honestly (BTW, the second worst team in the NHL currently has 10 goals from its blueline - the Avs have 2).

If Elliott and Barrie are both good enough to play regularly in the NHL in a few years, I see nothing on earth wrong with both of them playing in the same lineup. It all depends on the rest of the defensive roster.

And BTW, I know Jones would be a hell of a catch for the Avs, but there's no guarantee that he'd be ready for NHL defense right off the bat.
Agree. EJ, Barrie and Elliott on the right side is pretty good as long as the left side is dealt with. We already know that Barrie plays very well with Hejda. Siemens and Elliott were great together in the WHL. Will that pairing work in the NHL? Time will tell I guess. So once more we are left with finding a top pairing guy to play with EJ and we could be set. On the other end maybe Siemens will be that guy and we just need to find somebody else to play with Elliott on the 3rd line. Beaupre maybe? He is having a very good year with LEM. IMO that's too many rookies.

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03-30-2013, 12:23 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by ABasin View Post
I disagree. It's probably the 2nd biggest trade the organization has ever made (arguable), and most certainly is the biggest trade they've made in their 'rebuild era'. And there is genuine question as to whether it helped or hurt the rebuild, and genuine question whether the Avs' GM overpaid in the trade.

It makes perfect sense that it would be a focus of discussion.
It's been two years. It's been discussed from pretty much every angle multiple times.

It's not an interesting discussion in the same way Stastny's contract isn't an interesting discussion or saying that Avs shouldn't have picked player X with draft pick Y.

It's just a lightning rod for fan frustration and fan desire to feel smarter than the organization.

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03-30-2013, 12:48 PM
  #181
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Barrie is far from a finished product and comparing him with Yandle is right now is both ill-advised and unfair to Tyson.
I think it's perfectly fair in the context we were talking. I said Yandle was more multi dimensional than Barrie, and you asked how so. I don't think Barrie is gonna develop a big hip check, get in the occasional fight, or be a guy that will push guys around trying to clear the net. At best I think he'll become as good defensively, but I don't think he'll be the same kind of emotional leader for his team the way Yandle is.


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Yes I'm more comfortable trading for JBo this offseason under one condition and that's being able to negotiate a new contract with him before the trade happens, the same goes for the Flames and Stastny.
So in order for the trade to go down, JBo would have to agree to us on an extension, and Staz would have to agree to an extension with the Flames. I think the chances of that happening are extremely low. They'll both be wanting to have a good year next year to improve their asking price.

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And you don't trade Elliott just because you assume he would be stuck on the 3rd pairing, having young cheap highly talented defenseman on your 3rd pairing isn't a bad thing and it's not like you won't be forced to play through injuries at some point in time. You play him there, let him build up his value and deal with him later on, there's absolutely no rush to trade him except if the return is pretty damn good.
Can I ask why everyone complains about the D unit, and everyone wants a top pairing guy to play with EJ, but no one wants to give up anything to do it? They need to build their top four, who cares about the 3rd pairing. O'Brien, Wilson, and whoever are perfectly fine on the 3rd pairing.

Everyone wants a partner for EJ, no one wants to trade for one. Everyone wants the D to be better, no one wants to give up assets to add good defenseman. No one wants to trade Barrie or Elliott because they think they'll be really good one day, for defenseman that are really good.

Again, if they draft Jones, how is EJ, Jones, and Barrie/Elliott better than EJ, Jones, and Yandle. I just don't get it. Let go of your fear of trading prospects people. With EJ Jones, and Siemens in the mix long term, they have enough depth to use them in trades to help the team, and to help EJ get to the level expected. A defenseman like Yandle has twice the value in that regard.

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03-30-2013, 12:53 PM
  #182
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Yes, he's slowed (as has their team - tough team to figure out, that StL). But overall, he's still 7th or 8th in the WC amongst defensemen in scoring, and he finished last season 6th in the WC. Both this season and last, he's 14th in the entire league. So, by simple mathematics, he's producing better offensively than any defenseman on at least half the teams in the league. And doing so for the 2nd straight year. Even in his rookie season, he was a top 20 scoring defenseman.

3 straight years now with impressive offensive totals. He's for real.
I agree he is for real offensively. Just like Liles was. I was just pointing out that he isn't for real in the sense that the Avs gave away a Norris contender (which people were saying he was earlier this year), or one of the best offensive defencemen in the league. Yes, he will always be in the top 30, and most likely closer to 15.

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About 25 of those 35 points off, if we go by current production.
If you want to take a sample of 25 games then sure. Even last season though, if he played all 82 games, he most likely would have hit 30 points. Minus this season, there is no reason to think he isn't a 30 point defenceman, even if he played exactly like he did last season.

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Everyone keeps saying this, but he put forth that 39 point season in '09-10. Is the player the Avs have *really* the same guy? I genuinely hope so, but it he really?
Kind of the million dollar question. It's funny how he played at that same pace as a 19 year old, then missed a year, and then played at the exact same pace when he returned. Same pace when he first got to Colorado too. He obviously has the talent for it, but maybe has lost the mentality for it. In which case, you would be right. The Avs don't have the same guy.

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03-30-2013, 01:17 PM
  #183
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Of course. But I think the divergence in our directions here, comes in that I never once attributed Duchene's excellent year to the existence of Parenteau. They have chemistry together, without a doubt, which is great, but the thought that Duchene raised his game only after Parenteau raised his, never crossed my mind until reading your post.

Rather, I attributed Duchene's excellent season to his rededicating himself to his conditioning, his stopping trying to do it alone on the ice and instead use his teammates, and overall maturity with which he approaches the game.

In other words, I give them both credit for their own good play. Like I'd give them either/both blame for their own poor play, if that were to transpire. Which in general, is how I also approach EJ's play, good or bad.
There's no way Dutchy would have had as much success, and been confident enough to be playing the way he has without PAP. Almost all breakaways he's got, or passes he's received right on the tape while he's skating at full speed are from PAP.

His off ice training was huge as well, but Dutchy is just as particular with who he plays with as EJ is. It's not the worst thing in the world, if you know they're capable of playing at such a high level, and you can add the right complimentary piece to help them do so.

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03-30-2013, 01:27 PM
  #184
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I really don't think so, Roy, Blake and Bourque trade were all bigger by quite a margain.
Yeah, you're probably right.

A big trade nonetheless.

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03-30-2013, 01:33 PM
  #185
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There's no way Dutchy would have had as much success, and been confident enough to be playing the way he has without PAP.
With all due respect, how on earth can you possibly know that?

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Almost all breakaways he's got, or passes he's received right on the tape while he's skating at full speed are from PAP.
There's no doubt that Parenteau has been really good. But why is it so outlandish to believe that Duchene brought his very best to the table this season, and it's working out for him?

And changing subjects for a moment: Given how good Parenteau and Duchene have been together this season, how many games would they have to slump together before Sacco ripped them apart? :-)

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03-30-2013, 02:01 PM
  #186
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It's been two years. It's been discussed from pretty much every angle multiple times.

It's not an interesting discussion in the same way Stastny's contract isn't an interesting discussion or saying that Avs shouldn't have picked player X with draft pick Y.

It's just a lightning rod for fan frustration and fan desire to feel smarter than the organization.
Then don't take part in it.

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03-30-2013, 02:02 PM
  #187
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Yeah, you're probably right.

A big trade nonetheless.
Agreed.

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03-30-2013, 02:34 PM
  #188
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With all due respect, how on earth can you possibly know that?



There's no doubt that Parenteau has been really good. But why is it so outlandish to believe that Duchene brought his very best to the table this season, and it's working out for him?

And changing subjects for a moment: Given how good Parenteau and Duchene have been together this season, how many games would they have to slump together before Sacco ripped them apart? :-)
I think it's a pretty easy call to make. Like I said the sheer number of times PAP has brilliantly set him up on a rush up ice at full speed is astounding. No one else would have been able to do that, and Dutchy probably would have still been trying to do too much on his own. They have very very good chemsitry, where as Duchene had a sheer lack of chemistry with everyone else he played with except Flash and Mueller the first couple months after his trade.

Dutchy did bring his very best, and he's thought the game much better which has helped a lot. He would have been better than last year, but no where near this successful IMO. The same way EJ will be partly responsible for him becoming better offensively if he does so, but the right situation will also play a big factor.

Like I said, not every player is the same in terms of whether it's self motivation, or the right situation that makes them successful. For some like O'Reilly it's somewhere along the lines of 90-10% because he's low maintenance and can play with anyone. For others maybe it's 75-25. For guys like Dutchy and EJ it's closer to 50-50 in my eyes. They need to be in certain roles, and with the right linemates, otherwise they don't play up to their potential.

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03-30-2013, 06:52 PM
  #189
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Another very solid game from him, seriously he could have at least 5 assists from the last 3 games if his teammates could score on his passes. I did notice a few times in the 3rd, he tried to do too much and caught himself with turnovers.

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03-30-2013, 06:54 PM
  #190
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EJ is such a sexy ***** when he stops caring about what Joe Sacco is telling him to do.

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03-31-2013, 07:30 AM
  #191
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Value Of Johnson

What value does Johnson hold after his play this season? Is he worth what we gave for him? What could we possibly get for him if we were to trade him this year?

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03-31-2013, 07:47 AM
  #192
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We won't trade him.

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03-31-2013, 08:19 AM
  #193
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bag of pucks. Nothing. He didn't live up to hype. Trade him. Keep Hunwick as #1 defenseman. We will all right then.

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03-31-2013, 09:30 AM
  #194
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Clearly expendable with the emergence of Hunwick.

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03-31-2013, 09:40 AM
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Now that it's obvious HunnnyBunny has been carrying him, his value is somewhere between Zanon and ROB.

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03-31-2013, 09:51 AM
  #196
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We have an Erik Johnson thread, this discussion is being moved into that thread, carry on.

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03-31-2013, 10:14 AM
  #197
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bag of pucks. Nothing. He didn't live up to hype. Trade him. Keep Hunwick as #1 defenseman. We will all right then.
^^ btw it's crystal clear , but i'm not taking any chances , that was a sarcasm post, he wasnt serious .

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03-31-2013, 10:32 AM
  #198
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What value does Johnson hold after his play this season? Is he worth what we gave for him? What could we possibly get for him if we were to trade him this year?
I dunno if your trying to say his play this season has been bad or something, but he has played fairly well all year except for the first 3 or 4 games back from his concussion.


And his play in the last 3 games has just been a small example of how good he can truly be if he had a #2 Dman playing along side him(Hunny has played surprisingly very well next to EJ recently).

If we draft Jones this offseason, and Jones is capable of playing the Left side(Or EJ for that matter), it wont be long before were talking about a Top 3 D pairing in the league.

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03-31-2013, 11:59 AM
  #199
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What value does Johnson hold after his play this season? Is he worth what we gave for him? What could we possibly get for him if we were to trade him this year?
Well, I've been vocal enough about the value of the EJ trade, so no more of that here.

The Avs won't and can't trade him. He's by far their best defenseman, and there are an awful lot of people in here - myself included - who see huge untapped potential and skill in the guy.

And there's no way Sherman could turn around and trade him now. That would put him in Mike Milbury territory for all hockey eternity.

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04-05-2013, 06:20 PM
  #200
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If you watch all the goals he has scored through out his career, it seems like they are either one timers, or he is moving with the puck (like in the video). He is either skating with it and snaps it off, or puts himself in a better position. He doesn't do this anymore. He just stands still, winds up, waits for someone to get in the lane, and then nails their shinpads.

If he started moving with the puck and shooting, I'd bet he'd have a hell of a lot more goals and assists. His shot not getting through to the net is killing his assists totals, as lots of them come from rebounds.

It seems so simple. I wish he would just do it.


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