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Hypothetically speaking...could Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin or Stamkos break Gretzkys...

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Old
03-15-2013, 10:36 PM
  #101
dethomas07
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the question should be if gretzky played in todays game would he put up the same points..

i think its a totally different game.. athletes are so more athletic today then they were back then and someone mentioned it above me about goalies equipment.. today their gear is huge compared to back then..

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Old
03-15-2013, 10:42 PM
  #102
CapitalsCupFantasy
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ZERO chance....Crosby is a fantastic player, but in comparison, he's Gretzky-lite.

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:11 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dethomas07 View Post
the question should be if gretzky played in todays game would he put up the same points..
No, but about the same dominance (to a certains factor, gretzky was giving is 100% a lot of the time, event if is team was beating a poor team), those scenario would be near removed today (still have some Crosby vs the Islander case, but less than in the 80).

If the big star were making 130-140 points when gretzky was having 200 points seasons, we can expect Gretzky having a 160-70 points peak season when the stars are making 100 points.

Crosby 25 game streak did show us than a 2 points by game would be possible for Greztky/Lemieux today. (And for lemieux we know he actualy did crazy thing in the deep of the dpe anyway)

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:16 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by sovietsanta87 View Post
LOL wut?

So one of the things that made Gretzky better than Lemieux was his "ability" to not have Hodgkins Lymphoma?
It should be a part of the debate I think. So I would agree with him.

Would you agree the Sedins ability to stay healthy is part of what makes them great players?

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:20 PM
  #105
Aceonfire
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I can't believe some that think Crosby could do what Gretzky did during his career.

There is a reason that his jersey has been retired league wide. He was an icon for this sport and his skill on the ice will never be rivaled.

The only player that could have given Gretzky a run for his money was Lemieux. If Crosby had the attitude that he has in the 80s, some goon would have ended his career earlier.

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:26 PM
  #106
CanuckLuck
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Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
I can't believe some that think Crosby could do what Gretzky did during his career.

There is a reason that his jersey has been retired league wide. He was an icon for this sport and his skill on the ice will never be rivaled.

The only player that could have given Gretzky a run for his money was Lemieux. If Crosby had the attitude that he has in the 80s, some goon would have ended his career earlier.
No he would have a heavyweight watching his back. Same rules apply.

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:36 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by SabresFan44 View Post
Could one of those four beat his point record.

I know its highly unlikely but Ovechkin just got to 700 points. Crosby if he stays healthy.

Then there is Stamkos who could put up 50 goal seasons for a long time.

If not points record, could one of them break any of Gretzkys records, if so which one.
Any of his records?

http://proicehockey.about.com/od/way...ky_records.htm

The most likely to me would be the 23 game assist streak. I believe Sid got semi-close to this one a few years ago.

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:38 PM
  #108
Jag68Sid87
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Originally Posted by SabresFan44 View Post
Could one of those four beat his point record.

I know its highly unlikely but Ovechkin just got to 700 points. Crosby if he stays healthy.

Then there is Stamkos who could put up 50 goal seasons for a long time.

If not points record, could one of them break any of Gretzkys records, if so which one.
I suppose it's possible that one of his, what, 49~ NHL records can fall. But not the big ones, imo.

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Old
03-15-2013, 11:56 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
I suppose it's possible that one of his, what, 49~ NHL records can fall. But not the big ones, imo.
Actually 61. 40 regular season, 15 playoff, 6 All Star.

Check it out if you have a chance. http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=384583

Fun fact, he lost a record after he retired, but then gained it back. Record 61 (PPG). After he retired Lemieux passed him but then when he made his comeback with Crosby it caused his PPG to drop, thereby giving the record back to Gretzky.

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Old
03-16-2013, 03:04 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by KingWantsCup View Post
Crosby would be considered the most dominant athlete of all time if he had his prime when Gretzky had his. And I am not a Crosby fan, it's just so obvious. Who the hell puts up five assists in one game like he did the other day? In today's NHL? He'd blow the doors off of Gretzky's records.
Sam Gagner put up 8 pts in "todays" NHL.. What does that mean then?

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Old
03-16-2013, 03:07 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post



No, he wouldn't.
Well, in the 80's, maybe.

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Old
03-16-2013, 03:09 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongIslanders90 View Post
Sam Gagner put up 8 pts in "todays" NHL.. What does that mean then?
That's an anomaly, we're talking about a guy that is still on pace to put up 130pts if this was a full 82 game schedule, even then, he's on pace to put up 80+. This isn't an era of stand up goaltenders that kick at pucks to make saves, it's such a better league compared to the 80's and 90's. Being someone that has seen hockey in all of the said decades, I can contest to that.

But yeah, Gagner's 8pts is more of a fluke. Sid is a guy that routinely puts up 3-4pts over a dozen times a season or hell, any given month it seems.

This season alone he has 8 games where he's put up 3pts, 5 in which he had 2pts and then of course, a bunch of games with 1pt and then the 5pt game.

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Old
03-16-2013, 03:56 AM
  #113
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Holy **** people. This has gone on for three pages and it is ridiculous. You talk about American education sucking? At least we can do basic math.

Hey, and homeboy has been here since 04 and is STILL asking this nonsense. Seriously?

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Old
03-16-2013, 08:23 AM
  #114
66871
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Regarding the side discussion of how Sid would do in the 80s, I don't think Gretzky is getting enough credit here for what he did and when he did it.

You could make a reasonable argument (although I disagree with it) that Crosby is better in the absolute than Gretzky. But the level of play increases over time in every sport so I'm not sure Crosby should get credit for being born 25 years later.

To my mind, Gretzky blew the doors off of what hockey was. The Oilers changed the sport and how it was played. It's one thing to watch an old Oilers game. But try comparing it to a game between, for instance, the Sabres and the Penguins from the same year. I promise you that the difference between those two games will be more noticeable than the difference between a current Pens game and a game not involving the Pens.

So for me, Gretzky is remarkable not just for what he did but when he did it. He basically staked out new territory. And the fact that many believe he would own today's NHL says a lot about how great he was..

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Old
03-16-2013, 09:04 AM
  #115
fly4apuckguy
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I get so frustrated with Sid/Gretzky comparisons. These two are probably my two favorite players of all time. I have no reason to put one over the other.

Saying Crosby is Gretzky lite and he is nothing compared to Gretzky is a load of garbage.

As purely the hockey player Crosby is, he is better than Gretzky. The only thing Gretzky has on him is vision, and that margin is not substantial. If you put Crosby into 1983 right now, he would be dominating the NHL on a level that could not be fully understood.

However, with that said, you could drop Phil Kessel into 1956 and he would win the Art Ross and Hart five years in a row.

That does NOT mean I think Crosby should be ranked above Gretzky all-time, or that Kessel should out-rank Beliveau. It means that comparing eras is not fair to the guys of an earlier generation.

They did the best they could with what they were given in terms of training, equipment, nutritional advice, coaching, etc.

But saying Crosby could not compete with Gretzky in his day is ludicrous. Just watch those old games (I did...live, I am old). Lots of players in those days looked like they were lacing up skates for the first time and using floor hockey sticks. The goalies looked tiny and routinely let in goals from above the circles even without being screened. They were all just a product of the time.

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Old
03-16-2013, 09:39 AM
  #116
unknown33
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Did you even do the math before thinking about opening this thread?

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Old
03-16-2013, 09:40 AM
  #117
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There is no way Gretzky is putting up the same numbers in today's NHL. The players are so much bigger, the goalies are over padded, and teams drop 5 players in front of the goalie. He would still lead the league, but 150 pts would be the top he could achieve. It would be interesting to see if Crosby could keep up with him. Nobody knows and we could ponder that question all day without reaching a conclusion.

I do think Stamkos would score more goals them him though.

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Old
03-16-2013, 10:16 AM
  #118
fly4apuckguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StrongIslanders90 View Post
Sam Gagner put up 8 pts in "todays" NHL.. What does that mean then?
That once in awhile, a guy has a freak outing, like Sittler and his 10 point night.

When I was a kid, 4-5 point games were a fairly frequent occurance. If someone got 7, you paid attention. 5 goal games were not even all that big of a deal. Think about how the league would react to a 5 goal game today, if it were to happen.

Please don't use one game and one player to define an era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceonfire View Post
If Crosby had the attitude that he has in the 80s, some goon would have ended his career earlier.
Revisionist history. I am Gretzky's biggest fan, but he was a far bigger whiner and diver than Crosby has ever been. There were just as many whiners and punks in 1983 as there is now. Brad Marchand is nothing new. Plus, Crosby could have a Semenko on his line who wouldn't get suspended for actually keeping some punk in line.

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Old
03-16-2013, 11:54 AM
  #119
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Gretzky's records will never be broken because the goalies have gotten so good.

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Old
03-16-2013, 12:28 PM
  #120
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0% chance he breaks the point record

Lets compare Yzerman to Crosby... Both started at 18yrs old

Assuming Corsby hits 75 points this season... he would be at 684 Career Points in his first 8 seasons (would be 26yrs old to start his 9th). Granted, many of those being shortened for whatever reason.

Yzerman was at exactly 800 points within the same time frame (more games played). Not saying Yzerman was better. I'm just pointing out that in all-time points, Crosby has to make up 116 points so far.

Over the next 3 seasons, Yzerman averaged 107 points to reach a total of 1122.
I think it's safe to say Crosby isn't going to average 146 points in the next three seasons. Lets say he averages 119 in that span, he would still be behind Yzerman at the same age by 81 career points.

Yzerman's following season was an injured one in which he only got 38 points.
Let's assume Crosby gets another 119 point season... that would bring him exactly on par with Yzerman's 1160 career points.

That's almost best case scenario and Crosby is on par with Yzerman going in his 13th NHL season as a 30yr old.

Over the next 5 seasons, Yzerman averaged 80 points per year (as a 30, 31, 32, 33and 34 yr old).

After 35, he averaged 48 points and a PPG of 0.75 which isn't bad for a 35+ yr old

Point totals starting from the fisrt season a player began the season as a 30yr old:
Messier: 746 (retired 44)
Recchi: 691 (retired 43)
Selanne: 636 (Including this season so far - currently 42)
Yzerman: 595
Gretzky: 594
Sakic: 581
Jagr: 436
Lemieux: 351

and as you can see.. Yzerman is up there for points among 30+ year olds that didnt retire as cavemen.

Realistically, with history taken in to account, Crosby has a very slim chance at getting as many points as Gretzky has assists, but if generally healthy as compared to most, he should be in the Yzerman ballpark.

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Old
03-16-2013, 12:32 PM
  #121
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At the height of the Dead Puck Era, a 37 year old Wayne Gretzky led the NHL in assists and was tied for 3rd in points.

Jagr (25) - 102
Forsberg (24) - 91
Bure (26) - 90
Gretzky (37) - 90

I'm starting to think Gretzky is underrated around these parts.

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Old
03-16-2013, 01:06 PM
  #122
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198384 Oilers scored 446 goals, average of 5.5 a game.

Penguins led the entire league in 2011-12 with 283 goals. That is less what Kings who finished last in the same division as Oilers had back then.

Aside Gretzky being great those are part of the reason why his records will be unreachable for any active player.

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Old
03-16-2013, 02:03 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crease View Post
At the height of the Dead Puck Era, a 37 year old Wayne Gretzky led the NHL in assists and was tied for 3rd in points.

Jagr (25) - 102
Forsberg (24) - 91
Bure (26) - 90
Gretzky (37) - 90

I'm starting to think Gretzky is underrated around these parts.
If you play a thinking game like Gretzky though, age isn't as big an impediment as it is to a guy who relies on speed or physicality- think Ray Whitney today. Give him, say, 10 or 15 more points to account for the age, and you put him at or slightly above a guy like Jagr. That does land you in the upper stratosphere of hockey players, but it doesn't make you an unreachable god.

Gretzky's numbers are a product of the 80's. If he played today, he would probably be around Crosby's level. That's hardly an insult, and I don't think that that's underrating anybody. I think that that's just being honest.

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Old
03-16-2013, 02:07 PM
  #124
Shinsuke Nakamura
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I can see Crosby MAYBE, and that's a BIG maybe, get more points than Gretzky had assists.

Gretzky's point record, absolutely not.

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Old
03-16-2013, 04:04 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by CptKirk View Post
If you play a thinking game like Gretzky though, age isn't as big an impediment as it is to a guy who relies on speed or physicality- think Ray Whitney today. Give him, say, 10 or 15 more points to account for the age, and you put him at or slightly above a guy like Jagr. That does land you in the upper stratosphere of hockey players, but it doesn't make you an unreachable god.

Gretzky's numbers are a product of the 80's. If he played today, he would probably be around Crosby's level. That's hardly an insult, and I don't think that that's underrating anybody. I think that that's just being honest.
But if Gretzky would score around Crosby's level in todays' game, do ou really consider that other stars of the 80s (Trottier, Bossy, Yzerman, Dionne, Messier) would be scoring around 65-80 points / year in their best years?

After all, if we assume that scoring at Gretzky's rate (200 points / year) would be equal to around 120 points today (actually highly generous assumption for Crosby), those numerous other stars from the 80s that scored in their best years between 130-110 points / season would be scoring around 65-80 points / season, way behind any point race.

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