HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Which player had the best skillset in their prime?

View Poll Results: Player with the best skillset
Mario Lemieux 46 34.59%
Wayne Gretzky 50 37.59%
Sergei Fedorov 17 12.78%
Peter Forsberg 1 0.75%
Eric Lindros 5 3.76%
Pavel Bure 5 3.76%
Sidney Crosby 1 0.75%
Alexei Kovalev 2 1.50%
Jaromir Jagr 5 3.76%
Alex Ovechkin 1 0.75%
Voters: 133. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
03-19-2013, 01:40 PM
  #126
Sentinel
Registered User
 
Sentinel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 2,616
vCash: 500
Over and over and again: nobody, even DRW fans, is claiming Fedorov was a better hockey player than Gretzky. We speak exclusively of their raw skills and talents. Surely, Gretzky blows away everybody with his mind, vision, and IQ, but as far as other skills go, he just didn't have as many as Fedorov: shot, speed, strength, skating. Even stick-handling I give the edge to Fedorov.

Sentinel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 01:44 PM
  #127
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,116
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Over and over and again: nobody, even DRW fans, is claiming Fedorov was a better hockey player than Gretzky. We speak exclusively of their raw skills and talents. Surely, Gretzky blows away everybody with his mind, vision, and IQ, but as far as other skills go, he just didn't have as many as Fedorov: shot, speed, strength, skating. Even stick-handling I give the edge to Fedorov.
And again, confusing physical traits with skills.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 02:29 PM
  #128
BamBamCam*
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Seattle/Boston
Country: Ireland
Posts: 1,395
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Over and over and again: nobody, even DRW fans, is claiming Fedorov was a better hockey player than Gretzky. We speak exclusively of their raw skills and talents. Surely, Gretzky blows away everybody with his mind, vision, and IQ, but as far as other skills go, he just didn't have as many as Fedorov: shot,speed, strength, skating. Even stick-handling I give the edge to Fedorov.

Right gotcha,

Wayne was a better hockey player, BUT Saint Sergei Fedorov was better than Greztky at every aspect of the game except his brain and apparently his eyes. Since IQ and mind are the same thing, I crossed one of them off for you.

What were we all thinking nick naming Gretzky "The Great One" clearly it should have been the "Brainy One"

BamBamCam* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 05:50 PM
  #129
LeBlondeDemon10
10 AM Its Automatic
 
LeBlondeDemon10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,764
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Over and over and again: nobody, even DRW fans, is claiming Fedorov was a better hockey player than Gretzky. We speak exclusively of their raw skills and talents. Surely, Gretzky blows away everybody with his mind, vision, and IQ, but as far as other skills go, he just didn't have as many as Fedorov: shot, speed, strength, skating. Even stick-handling I give the edge to Fedorov.
Better stickhandler? Where? when? Between the pylons at the all-star game? If you have ever watched Gretzky, nobody got the puck off of him and he held onto it for longer stretches of time than anyone in the history of the game.

LeBlondeDemon10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 06:14 PM
  #130
Yamaguchi
Registered User
 
Yamaguchi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 676
vCash: 500
Wayne Gretzky had a better visual memory than other players. Therefore he could predict where the puck is most likely going to be.

Hence, 200+ points seasons, Harts, Cups etc.

Yamaguchi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 06:49 PM
  #131
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,761
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
And again, confusing physical traits with skills.
Well, just for a couple of examples, since it takes technique to skate faster than the other fastest professional hockey players (who wouldn't like to see him race Ussain Bolt around the lap of a rink on skates?), and takes technique to make it look "smoother" than the rest (why don't more figure skaters transition over, I wonder), and since it also takes technique to shoot harder than the hardest shooting professional hockey players (although I'd like to see all the Guinness strongest men line up and have their slapshots timed), I'm not as quick to reduce the value of such things down to zero as "physical traits" rather than skills.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 06:50 PM
  #132
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,761
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
Better stickhandler? Where? when? Between the pylons at the all-star game? If you have ever watched Gretzky, nobody got the puck off of him and he held onto it for longer stretches of time than anyone in the history of the game.
And I'd still say that Kovalev was a better stickhandler than both of them. Where does that leave us, anyway?

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 06:53 PM
  #133
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,116
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Well, just for a couple of examples, since it takes technique to skate faster than the other fastest professional hockey players (who wouldn't like to see him race Ussain Bolt around the lap of a rink on skates?), and takes technique to make it look "smoother" than the rest (why don't more figure skaters transition over, I wonder), and since it also takes technique to shoot harder than the hardest shooting professional hockey players (although I'd like to see all the Guinness strongest men line up and have their slapshots timed), I'm not as quick to reduce the value of such things down to zero as "physical traits" rather than skills.
Physical trait - speed, strength, size, ect.

Skill - Passing, shot technique, positioning, ect.

Speed and strength keep getting mentioned and they are NOT skills.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 06:57 PM
  #134
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,761
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Physical trait - speed, strength, size, ect.

Skill - Passing, shot technique, positioning, ect.

Speed and strength keep getting mentioned and they are NOT skills.
So are you agreeing with my post but arguing against someone else here, then? And speed (for one example) is a skill, btw. You can't just take your pulse in the morning and say "ah, I must have X amount of speed coursing through my body today". Nor can you say, "Oh, he's 5'6" so he was Y amount of speed in him, and correspondly this 6'2" gentleman over here has Y-Z speed in him". Speed, especially when comparing at the top level of talent in anything, is differentiated on technique, and that comes down to practised/honed skill.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 07:16 PM
  #135
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,116
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
So are you agreeing with my post but arguing against someone else here, then? And speed (for one example) is a skill, btw. You can't just take your pulse in the morning and say "ah, I must have X amount of speed coursing through my body today". Nor can you say, "Oh, he's 5'6" so he was Y amount of speed in him, and correspondly this 6'2" gentleman over here has Y-Z speed in him". Speed, especially when comparing at the top level of talent in anything, is differentiated on technique, and that comes down to practised/honed skill.
A player is either physically capable of performing at a certain speed or he's not. You don't "learn" to run fast: You're either physically capable of running fast or you're not. Hockey is no different: No amount of "learning" is going to turn a lumbering goon into the second coming of Mike Gartner.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 07:31 PM
  #136
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Morocco
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,089
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Wayne Gretzky had a better visual memory than other players. Therefore he could predict where the puck is most likely going to be.... Hence, 200+ points seasons, Harts, Cups etc.
Oh, I didnt know you too were a Doctor of Phrenology Yamaguchi? But yes, quite correct. Dorsal Stream Pathway. Colloquially called the "where path". Highly developed in Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, many more, Gretzkys though in particular quite extraordinary. Visual transmission between the parietal & occipital lobes, third eye blind perception & awareness, telegraphy, spatial relationships, dead bang on accurate imagery.... I believe Wayne inherited this trait from his Belarusian forbearers, who, on long winter nights during the dying days of the reign of Tsar Nicholas II were rumoured to have been engaged in Remote Viewing and Automatic Handwriting activities, spying on the Bolshi's. Forced to flee Mother Russia to Canada by way of the US, quietly retiring to raise cucumbers on a farm near Canning. Ontario. This "gift" passed on, Wally-Wayne.... nothin like a good dill pickle eh?

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 08:09 PM
  #137
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
And this is kind of what I was pointing out earlier about Fedorov being overrated. If he's got a score of 88.6 and Gretzky 84.3, you'd think he'd have more scoring titles, records, etc to go with it. You'd think that this incredible and diverse toolset with no real weaknesses would translate into some sort of super human results. Not necessarily more points than Gretzky because of the era, but surely he must have dominated his peers in similar fashion.
That's what I was trying to get at with the "physical skills x Hockey IQ" idea. It provides a much better idea of how the players performed, doesn't it?


Quote:
But he didn't. Howe had a diverse and amazing tool set, and look at the results. Orr did too. Look at those results. Lemieux had diverse offensive skills, but no defense ones. Still, they translated into statistical domination. Gretzky of course. And then we have Fedorov, who apparently has the most amazing skill set of everyone on this list,
When defense is considered alongside offense. Fedorov dominated to a greater degree defensively relative to Gretzky, than the degree Gretzky dominated offensively. If you remove defense (or skating) as a consideration, Fedorov's not nearly as attractive a choice. The same is, of course, true of anyone if you remove their best talent.

Quote:
yet no scoring titles, only a couple top 10 finishes in points in his career, etc. Certainly he was a great player. Defensively he was probably the best on the list we were given. But he is behind in every offensive category IMO, and quite significantly when compared to Gretzky and Lemieux.
And as I stated before, defense is the reason he is one of three reasonable choices. If you are complaining that some consider him the best in this poll over "offense-mostly" players like Gretzky and Lemieux because he offered stellar defense and skating combined with *good* to *great* offensive skills in a poll which defense and skating are two of the criteria, I wonder what kind of hockey team you would put together were you a general manager.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BamBamCam View Post
And it doesn't have anything to do with potential either.

When I think of Fedorov, that's what I think; potential. Everyone says he was unbelievably talented but it only came out sometimes, usually the playoffs. His stats do mean something, if he had so much skill set, why did it never show on the stat sheets? Either way, Fedorov gets exposed as overrated or lazy, both of which has been common criticism of Fedorov. One season of elite like playing, is just not enough, to over take the Great One and list of others. Gretzky has 10 to 15 of those elite seasons, why not the most gifted player in Fedorov?
You don't seem to understand the concept of this poll. Or maybe I don't. I was under the impression that it was a poll about which player had the most diverse and complete skill set. The "Duh, Gretzky." attitude this thread has taken is much more of a "who was the best handyman?" than "who had the best tools?" sort of question. The question isn't what the players did with their tools, it's how good the tools were. The fact that Eric Lindros is on the poll should make that intent obvious.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 08:15 PM
  #138
Yamaguchi
Registered User
 
Yamaguchi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 676
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Oh, I didnt know you too were a Doctor of Phrenology Yamaguchi? But yes, quite correct. Dorsal Stream Pathway. Colloquially called the "where path". Highly developed in Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux, many more, Gretzkys though in particular quite extraordinary. Visual transmission between the parietal & occipital lobes, third eye blind perception & awareness, telegraphy, spatial relationships, dead bang on accurate imagery.... I believe Wayne inherited this trait from his Belarusian forbearers, who, on long winter nights during the dying days of the reign of Tsar Nicholas II were rumoured to have been engaged in Remote Viewing and Automatic Handwriting activities, spying on the Bolshi's. Forced to flee Mother Russia to Canada by way of the US, quietly retiring to raise cucumbers on a farm near Canning. Ontario. This "gift" passed on, Wally-Wayne.... nothin like a good dill pickle eh?


I was talking about a different thing. Have you heard about Adriaan De Groot and his studies?

Yamaguchi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 08:19 PM
  #139
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,116
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
That's what I was trying to get at with the "physical skills x Hockey IQ" idea. It provides a much better idea of how the players performed, doesn't it?
Trying to slap another unworkable metric onto an activity that doesn't lend itself well to metrics? There is no formula that can spit out the name of the best hockey player for you. Maybe when the game ceases to be played by human beings and starts being played by machines.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
The "Duh, Gretzky." attitude this thread has taken is much more of a "who was the best handyman?" than "who had the best tools?" sort of question. The question isn't what the players did with their tools, it's how good the tools were. The fact that Eric Lindros is on the poll should make that intent obvious.
A tool isn't a skill: It's an inanimate object. What someone does with the tool is a skill.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 08:20 PM
  #140
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,068
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post

When defense is considered alongside offense. Fedorov dominated to a greater degree defensively relative to Gretzky, than the degree Gretzky dominated offensively. If you remove defense (or skating) as a consideration, Fedorov's not nearly as attractive a choice. The same is, of course, true of anyone if you remove their best talent.
You may have to clarify what you're trying to say here because it seems that you are actually trying to say that Fedorov was more dominant defensively than Gretzky was offensively.
Because that's absolutely ridiculous if that is what you're trying to say.

Now if you're trying to say that Fedorov's offense + defense was more dominant than Gretzky's offense + defense, that's almost equally as ridiculous.
Gretzky was DOUBLING the producton of almost every other TOP offensive player in the league.
Fed's was not even remotely close to DOUBLING the defensive play of almost every other TOP defensive player in the league.

Sure, Fedorov makes up some ground overall on Gretzky due to his defensive play but enough to overtake a PRIME Gretzky or even match him...NOT ON HIS BEST DAY!

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 08:30 PM
  #141
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
Right, 200+ point...

Unfortunately, this is how most people judge about hockey players -- look, in his best years he scored 70 goals a season, means he's better than that other guy who had only 65 goals.

Example: I remember Bernie Nicholls and his 150 pts season. Does it mean he was a better forward than say Messier or Gilmour?
Nicholls was the fourth-best forward in the league that year. He was LA's second line center, and he scored 87 points at even strength. Gretzky was third in ESP with 100 (Lemieux had 102, Yzerman 101) It's rare in general for a player to hit PPG at ES. Even rarer when that player is on the second line. The only other instance I know of is Jaromir Jagr in 1995-96 and 1996-97.

Fifth in ES points was... guess who? Luc Robitaille, who finished top ten in overall scoring and was first-team on the LW.

Robitaille and Nicholls flanked Gretzky on the PP. Yet Gretzky still won the Hart, despite racking up dozens of points with two of the league's elite scoring forwards playing on his wings on the PP and occasionally at ES.

Who's the most valuable:

Player A: Leads league in goals, assists, and points. Leads in points by 31. Plays with league-leading RW and top-scoring D.

Player B: Scores 150+ points, and is one of only three times it was ever done without a 100+ teammate. Also double-shifted on the checking line and received Selke votes.

Player C: Led his team in scoring by 18 points, was one of two players on his team to score 150+.

Who should get the Hart?

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 08:36 PM
  #142
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,116
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Who should get the Hart?
Easy answer: The one who doesn't play for the Ded Things

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 08:37 PM
  #143
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
You may have to clarify what you're trying to say here because it seems that you are actually trying to say that Fedorov was more dominant defensively than Gretzky was offensively.
Because that's absolutely ridiculous if that is what you're trying to say.

Now if you're trying to say that Fedorov's offense + defense was more dominant than Gretzky's offense + defense, that's almost equally as ridiculous.
Gretzky was DOUBLING the producton of almost every other TOP offensive player in the league.
Fed's was not even remotely close to DOUBLING the defensive play of almost every other TOP defensive player in the league.

Sure, Fedorov makes up some ground overall on Gretzky due to his defensive play but enough to overtake a PRIME Gretzky or even match him...NOT ON HIS BEST DAY!
If we assume as a base standard Fedorov's defense=Gretzky's offense, then what I am saying is that Fedorov's offense>Gretzky's defense. I am not saying Fedorov was as dominant defensively as Gretzky was offensively, it's more based around Fedorov as a balanced two-way player compared to Gretzky being... not so balanced.

pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 08:39 PM
  #144
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,116
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
If we assume as a base standard Fedorov's defense=Gretzky's offense, then what I am saying is that Fedorov's offense>Gretzky's defense. I am not saying Fedorov was as dominant defensively as Gretzky was offensively, it's more based around Fedorov as a balanced two-way player compared to Gretzky being... not so balanced.
I don't assume formulas, sorry

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 08:45 PM
  #145
pdd
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Trying to slap another unworkable metric onto an activity that doesn't lend itself well to metrics? There is no formula that can spit out the name of the best hockey player for you. Maybe when the game ceases to be played by human beings and starts being played by machines.
Moreover, I was kind of trying to make the point that people aren't picking based on skills, they're picking based on what the person did with the skills. Which was not the poll question.

[mod]


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 03-19-2013 at 09:18 PM. Reason: Nah, let's not.
pdd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 08:46 PM
  #146
King Forsberg
21 68 88 16 44 28
 
King Forsberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 5,223
vCash: 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
If we assume as a base standard Fedorov's defense=Gretzky's offense, then what I am saying is that Fedorov's offense>Gretzky's defense. I am not saying Fedorov was as dominant defensively as Gretzky was offensively, it's more based around Fedorov as a balanced two-way player compared to Gretzky being... not so balanced.
I don't think it's fair to assume Federov's defense equals Gretzky's offense. Gretzky is the best offensive player of all time without a doubt. Was Fedorov even the best defensive player of his era?

King Forsberg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 08:55 PM
  #147
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,761
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
A player is either physically capable of performing at a certain speed or he's not. You don't "learn" to run fast: You're either physically capable of running fast or you're not. Hockey is no different: No amount of "learning" is going to turn a lumbering goon into the second coming of Mike Gartner.
I think your perspective would be developed a great deal by delving into a couple of the books on this very subject that are listed on this page.

The author is another like you, who once believed that strength and speed aren't "skills".

[mod]


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 03-19-2013 at 09:18 PM. Reason: qdp
Ohashi_Jouzu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 08:57 PM
  #148
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,068
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
If we assume as a base standard Fedorov's defense=Gretzky's offense.
You can assume what you want to but I sure as hell aint assuming that, not even close.

AGAIN, Gretzky DOUBLED the output of most other top offensive players.
Fedorov was NOT twice as effective defensively as most other top defensive players!

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 08:58 PM
  #149
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Morocco
Country: Morocco
Posts: 22,089
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamaguchi View Post
I was talking about a different thing. Have you heard about Adriaan De Groot and his studies?
Ja ja. Het denken van den schaker. I unfortunately dont read Dutch, English translation unavailable, never did take up Chess.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
03-19-2013, 08:59 PM
  #150
Morgoth Bauglir
Master Of The Fates
 
Morgoth Bauglir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Angband via Utumno
Posts: 3,116
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I think your perspective would be developed a great deal by delving into a couple of the books on this very subject that are listed on this page.

The author is another like you, who once believed that strength and speed aren't "skills".
A practical exercise for you: Go out and learn everything you can about how to be fast and then get back to me with how you smoked Ursain Bolt in the 100.

Morgoth Bauglir is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:22 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.