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Chicago Wolves Discussion - Part VIII

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Old
03-20-2013, 05:04 PM
  #326
Szechwan
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^Excellent form. Not enough poetry around here guys.

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03-20-2013, 05:10 PM
  #327
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The draft is always a crap shoot.
It is considered to be a good draft if you can find 2 NHL players in 1 draft.
Plus, what happens afterwards to a player is anyone's guess.
No one can predict injuries, or how fast a player grasp the system.

Rodin looked to be a good pick when he was selected.
Then injuries hit and he lost developmental time.
It is unfortunate, but it is what it is.

The drafts under Gillis still looks more promising than Nonis'.
One more good point for Gillis is the Ballard trade he made exceptions for giving up the draft pick if Bennett or Tinordi were available. Both are in the NHL now, both would likely be knocking on the door for Vancouver. The Ballard trade turned out bad, but it gives some confidence that Gillis had two players targeted who are turning out well.

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Old
03-20-2013, 05:16 PM
  #328
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^Excellent form. Not enough poetry around here guys.
That's what I do.


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Originally Posted by Catamarca Livin View Post
One more good point for Gillis is the Ballard trade he made exceptions for giving up the draft pick if Bennett or Tinordi were available. Both are in the NHL now, both would likely be knocking on the door for Vancouver. The Ballard trade turned out bad, but it gives some confidence that Gillis had two players targeted who are turning out well.
Good point.
He does have a good eye for talent.
I still remember one of his first act as GM was to offer Backes an offer sheet.
Of course, he messed it up by not signing Bernier first, but he never made a mistake like that again.

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Old
03-20-2013, 05:17 PM
  #329
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On another note, really looking forward to our affiliate being in Abbotsford. Screw our prospects, we'll get to see Ballard play live for like 20 bucks!

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03-20-2013, 05:19 PM
  #330
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On another note, really looking forward to the affiliate becoming Abbotsford. Screw our prospects, we'll get to see Ballard play live for like 20 bucks!


He might not even be here next year.
His agent finally spoke out, and I think this is the last we see of him.

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03-20-2013, 05:30 PM
  #331
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I've been thinking for a while that Canucks might be identifying players that go on to have a long developmental path in the style of guys like Burrows and Hansen, where they don't reach their ceiling until well into their late 20s. It's pretty clear that there are those type of players and ones that top out at age 22-23, or even younger. With the money invested, perhaps they've made some break through in being able to identify those players.
Jannik Hansen played 2 years in the AHL and then made the Canucks full-time as a 22 year old, that is very impressive for someone drafted in the 6th round and I wouldn't call that a long developmental path for even someone drafted in the 2nd round.

I don't agree with the logic of looking for players on a longer developmental path, why wouldn't you look for players who can get to the same development in a shorter amount of time? I just think there was a reason Burrows wasn't drafted at the time, if a team could have predicted what he would turn out to be then he goes in the 1st or 2nd round. Going out and looking for another Burrows may cause our scouts to miss whats right in front of them, the more obvious picks.

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03-20-2013, 05:34 PM
  #332
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Jannik Hansen played 2 years in the AHL and then made the Canucks full-time as a 22 year old, that is very impressive for someone drafted in the 6th round and I wouldn't call that a long developmental path for even someone drafted in the 2nd round.

I don't agree with the logic of looking for players on a longer developmental path, why wouldn't you look for players who can get to the same development in a shorter amount of time? I just think there was a reason Burrows wasn't drafted at the time, if a team could have predicted what he would turn out to be then he goes in the 1st or 2nd round. Going out and looking for another Burrows may cause our scouts to miss whats right in front of them, the more obvious picks.
Hansen was drafted near the end of 9th rounder.
He was 5 spots from being Mr. Irrelevant, which was even more amazing if you think about it.
That 9th round is pretty amazing, because Mark Streit was also from that round.

I think Burrows did not play major juniors until he was 19 years old.
Maybe he focused all his attention on ball hockey, because he is considered to be a legend.

Looking at his career statistics, he always seem to take off in the 2nd year of any league he is in.
He may just be a late bloomer.

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03-20-2013, 05:40 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by GJB View Post
Jannik Hansen played 2 years in the AHL and then made the Canucks full-time as a 22 year old, that is very impressive for someone drafted in the 6th round and I wouldn't call that a long developmental path for even someone drafted in the 2nd round.

I don't agree with the logic of looking for players on a longer developmental path, why wouldn't you look for players who can get to the same development in a shorter amount of time? I just think there was a reason Burrows wasn't drafted at the time, if a team could have predicted what he would turn out to be then he goes in the 1st or 2nd round. Going out and looking for another Burrows may cause our scouts to miss whats right in front of them, the more obvious picks.
First of all, when discussing this: keep in mind that most 2nd round picks bust. Even ones that look promising early like Khaira.

Jannik Hansen, despite drawing early praise from fans, took years to develop into a reliable defensive player (which is why AV benched him and called him out as recently as 09-10 season). The year Hansen finally broke out as an NHL player was 10-11.

The point here is that at the time, Hansen clearly didn't look like a guy that had 2nd line upside. He looked like an energy grinder at best. Now he's a clear 2nd liner with how much he scores. He out scored Kesler at ES last year and he's Top 40 in ES scoring this year. They drafted him and he kept developing for 8+ years! That's an insanely long time to keep getting better.

Sedins are another two players that took a long time to develop and kept getting better and better.

On other teams, a guy like Chris Kunitz has taken a long time to develop as a player and has kept improving year after year after year.

On the flip side, you have guys like Bernier and Pyatt. They hit the NHL young as a mostly finished product and that's it for them. They have no more upside than they show at that age.

There's a lot of reasons why you would consider drafting those type of guys. They might be underrated in the draft because they don't look like somebody that has a high ceiling at that particular moment. You also get to keep them in your system longer and you can easier integrate them into your team (they can start out on the 4th line and progress further). It also keeps their costs down — look at the contracts that both Burrows ($2m for 30 goal scorer) and Hansen ($1.35m for 40 point guy and one of the best two-way forwards) have signed.

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Old
03-20-2013, 05:44 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Jannik Hansen, despite drawing early praise from fans, took years to develop into a reliable defensive player (which is why AV benched him and called him out as recently as 09-10 season). The year Hansen finally broke out as an NHL player was 10-11.

The point here is that at the time, Hansen clearly didn't look like a guy that had 2nd line upside. He looked like an energy grinder at best. Now he's a clear 2nd liner with how much he scores. He out scored Kesler at ES last year and he's Top 40 in ES scoring this year. They drafted him and he kept developing for 8+ years! That's an insanely long time to keep getting better.

Sedins are another two players that took a long time to develop and kept getting better and better.

On other teams, a guy like Chris Kunitz has taken a long time to develop as a player and has kept improving year after year after year.

On the flip side, you have guys like Bernier and Pyatt. They hit the NHL young as a mostly finished product and that's it for them. They have no more upside than they show at that age.

There's a lot of reasons why you would consider drafting those type of guys. They might be underrated in the draft because they don't look like somebody that has a high ceiling at that particular moment. You also get to keep them in your system longer and you can easier integrate them into your team (they can start out on the 4th line and progress further). It also keeps their costs down — look at the contracts that both Burrows ($2m for 30 goal scorer) and Hansen ($1.35m for 40 point guy and one of the best two-way forwards) have signed.
Good points.
But I feel the Sedins benefited most from the rule changes.
It loosened them up, and they responded.
Now, even with the league somewhat returning to the grab and hold system, they are stronger and more used to the game so they can handle it better.

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Old
03-20-2013, 05:44 PM
  #335
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Jannik Hansen played 2 years in the AHL and then made the Canucks full-time as a 22 year old, that is very impressive for someone drafted in the 6th round and I wouldn't call that a long developmental path for even someone drafted in the 2nd round.

I don't agree with the logic of looking for players on a longer developmental path, why wouldn't you look for players who can get to the same development in a shorter amount of time? I just think there was a reason Burrows wasn't drafted at the time, if a team could have predicted what he would turn out to be then he goes in the 1st or 2nd round. Going out and looking for another Burrows may cause our scouts to miss whats right in front of them, the more obvious picks.
I don't think he means when that player makes the NHL, his development path is complete, though.

Hansen is a great example. Makes the NHL at 22 almost 23, spends almost 5 full seasons working his way up the roster, and now it seems he's developed into a top 6 forward (or a 2/3 tweener at the very least).

Cost effective tweener at that.

You wan't to buy what Hansen does in FA, you're paying him Burrows money ($4.5m/yr).

I agree you don't always want to look for bargains and cost effective guys, but after the the top 5, let alone the entire 1st round, the draft is a great big crapshoot anyways.

Who is to say the most obvious pick, ends up being the best player...Hansen is a good example.

If you think that player/pick can someday turn into an NHL player, you do your best to get him there.

I don't mind the Mallet pick, especially if he ends up being what the brass project him to be (still would have liked Severson).


*edit* and he explained it for himself above.

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Old
03-20-2013, 07:02 PM
  #336
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And so it ends...
Could be good for him to back to Sweden rebuild himself/confidence. We'll see if makes a 2nd attempt.

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Old
03-20-2013, 07:37 PM
  #337
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heh.... so I'll be going from casually attending one Hawks rival's affiliate to another's?

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03-20-2013, 08:07 PM
  #338
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If the coaching staff is giving Jeremy Price the same reviews as a few of the posters here, I wonder if he's moving up the depth chart and stands a chance of seeing time with the Canucks this season. He is, after all, a right handed shot; I don't think there's anybody else in the system who shoots right and is a likelier candidate.

Would it be a surprise if Corrado or Price were in the starting line-up next season -- a righty D on an entry level contract?

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03-20-2013, 08:10 PM
  #339
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If the coaching staff is giving Jeremy Price the same reviews as a few of the posters here, I wonder if he's moving up the depth chart and stands a chance of seeing time with the Canucks this season. He is, after all, a right handed shot; I don't think there's anybody else in the system who shoots right and is a likelier candidate.

Would it be a surprise if Corrado or Price were in the starting line-up next season -- a righty D on an entry level contract?
Derek Joslin should be the first consideration for any D call-up and I believe he can play either side. Price is not there yet. He's doing well for his first few games but he's having a bit of trouble with the speed of the game right now. I think you want to see him control the game at that level and be the best D on the Wolves before he's given call-up consideration.

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03-20-2013, 08:18 PM
  #340
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If the coaching staff is giving Jeremy Price the same reviews as a few of the posters here, I wonder if he's moving up the depth chart and stands a chance of seeing time with the Canucks this season. He is, after all, a right handed shot; I don't think there's anybody else in the system who shoots right and is a likelier candidate.

Would it be a surprise if Corrado or Price were in the starting line-up next season -- a righty D on an entry level contract?
It would surprise the hell out of me. Gillis never brings guys in without giving them significant time in the minors. It's not a great way to develop prospects.

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Old
03-20-2013, 08:29 PM
  #341
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Derek Joslin should be the first consideration for any D call-up and I believe he can play either side. Price is not there yet. He's doing well for his first few games but he's having a bit of trouble with the speed of the game right now. I think you want to see him control the game at that level and be the best D on the Wolves before he's given call-up consideration.
You could be right. I'm in no position to judge. But if the staff's assessment is the same, I'd have thought Joslin would have had a call-up by now. The big club didn't have a lot of good options for the right side when Bieksa went down.

My thoughts about Price aren't based so much on an assessment of the player as an assessment of the importance the organization places on which side a d-man shoots from. All the reports on Price have been pretty positive, but of course if your sense of his difficulties is shared by management, then he'll stay where he is.

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03-20-2013, 08:34 PM
  #342
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On Rodin - Might be this was a player that should have been left in Sweden longer. Others like Albertsson and Zetterstorm had an extra year or two to mature before they came over.

Rodin started last year with some spark but clearly wasn't aware enough or strong enough to stand up to the pounding he was getting. You could see the talent but as he got banged up he lost a little speed and began to shy away from the contact. This year that tendency became more pronounced.

I think the team has be careful not to have some general development track for players. What might be good for one prospect may not be good for another. this may be most true for European players.

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03-20-2013, 08:39 PM
  #343
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Do we still own Rodin rights so we can decide if he wants to come more ready and mature? I guess he has already drop in the depth chart of winger since Jensen is now ahead of him

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03-20-2013, 08:43 PM
  #344
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On Rodin - Might be this was a player that should have been left in Sweden longer. Others like Albertsson and Zetterstorm had an extra year or two to mature before they came over.

Rodin started last year with some spark but clearly wasn't aware enough or strong enough to stand up to the pounding he was getting. You could see the talent but as he got banged up he lost a little speed and began to shy away from the contact. This year that tendency became more pronounced.

I think the team has be careful not to have some general development track for players. What might be good for one prospect may not be good for another. this may be most true for European players.
Alfredsson and Zetterberg?

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03-20-2013, 10:28 PM
  #345
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Derek Joslin should be the first consideration for any D call-up and I believe he can play either side. Price is not there yet. He's doing well for his first few games but he's having a bit of trouble with the speed of the game right now. I think you want to see him control the game at that level and be the best D on the Wolves before he's given call-up consideration.
Derek Joslin isn't good though. He has zero NHL upside. Connauton will almost certainly be the first D call-up.

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03-20-2013, 10:35 PM
  #346
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Do we still own Rodin rights so we can decide if he wants to come more ready and mature? I guess he has already drop in the depth chart of winger since Jensen is now ahead of him
He is going to be a RFA at the end of the year.
To retain his rights, I believe he needs to be tendered a contract.
It remains to be seen if Gillis will do it, even if Rodin is going to another team.

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03-20-2013, 11:12 PM
  #347
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Derek Joslin isn't good though. He has zero NHL upside. Connauton will almost certainly be the first D call-up.
Connauton is about half the player Joslin is, on a good night. There should be zero consideration given to him being a call-up.

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03-21-2013, 12:41 AM
  #348
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Derek Joslin isn't good though. He has zero NHL upside. Connauton will almost certainly be the first D call-up.
What do you base this on?????

From the games I've watched, from all the commentary coming out of Chicago and any other evidence I know about , Joslin has had a solid season whereas Connauton has had a very inconsistent and often very poor one. I can't understand your opinion here based on all I've seen and heard. But if you have contrary reports or observation I'd like to hear them.

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03-21-2013, 10:19 AM
  #349
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Derek Joslin isn't good though. He has zero NHL upside. Connauton will almost certainly be the first D call-up.
I'd put money on this not happening.

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03-21-2013, 11:13 AM
  #350
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Alfredsson and Zetterberg?
Probably Zetterstorm is not a swedish name nad there has not been a player named Albertsson makeing any NHL teams.

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