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04-05-2013, 04:02 PM
  #126
I Am Beat You
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We have absolutely no need for Drew Miller. I wouldn't be surprised if we shopped Pyatt either.

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04-05-2013, 04:04 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Jacko95 View Post
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.h...tssPlayerStats

Not many/ if any of those guys will be available...
I agree, which is why I'd rather look to trade some assets for the player we need, instead of signing one in UFA. We already have a logjam up front as it is and signing Miller wouldn't resolve our toughness/physicality issues. I already don't consider Thompson to be too physical if that helps you to understand my position in this.

If possible, bottom 6 players like Ott, Neil, Clutterbuck, Clifford, Greening, Nystrom, Lapierre etc. would be ideal. However, those types of players are always difficult to acquire since they're worth more to their team than they would be via trade.

EDIT: Lapierre is available as a UFA this summer, any interest?

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04-05-2013, 04:07 PM
  #128
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I hope not.

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04-05-2013, 04:11 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by I Am Beat You View Post
I hope not.
He had 244 hits last season and already has 90 this year. He's decently skilled and can contribute points in a bottom 6 role, can play in the middle or on the wing and is over 50% on draws. He's a super pest that opponents hate lining up against, something we desperately need to compliment all the skill.

In fact, I don't see a reason why we wouldn't have interest.

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04-05-2013, 04:54 PM
  #130
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I hope Dominic Moore decides he wants to play next sesaon and returns.

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04-05-2013, 05:16 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Tampa Bay Trio View Post
He had 244 hits last season and already has 90 this year. He's decently skilled and can contribute points in a bottom 6 role, can play in the middle or on the wing and is over 50% on draws. He's a super pest that opponents hate lining up against, something we desperately need to compliment all the skill.

In fact, I don't see a reason why we wouldn't have interest.
Our bottom six will have enough competition as is, and adding a pest to a team that already lacks toughness and is moving to a very tough division is not what I'd call ideal.

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04-05-2013, 05:27 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by I Am Beat You View Post
Our bottom six will have enough competition as is, and adding a pest to a team that already lacks toughness and is moving to a very tough division is not what I'd call ideal.
, so instead of counteracting the pests on the other team, we should just continue to let their pests and tough players take liberties on our players? The pests and tough guys on opposing teams will be thorns in our sides no matter what we do. We might as well stock up and try to include some physicality of our own, not to mention Lapierre's already played and thrived against plenty of our divisional rivals next year.

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04-05-2013, 07:30 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Tampa Bay Trio View Post
, so instead of counteracting the pests on the other team, we should just continue to let their pests and tough players take liberties on our players? The pests and tough guys on opposing teams will be thorns in our sides no matter what we do. We might as well stock up and try to include some physicality of our own, not to mention Lapierre's already played and thrived against plenty of our divisional rivals next year.
Lapierre will do nothing to prevent opposing players from taking liberties. If anything, it will only make things worse in that regard.

We have guys who are very capable of playing a physical game. If increased physicality is a point of emphasis from the coaching staff, there is no doubt in my mind that we'll have the personnel to provide that with or without a guy like Lapierre.

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04-05-2013, 08:50 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by I Am Beat You View Post
Lapierre will do nothing to prevent opposing players from taking liberties. If anything, it will only make things worse in that regard.

We have guys who are very capable of playing a physical game. If increased physicality is a point of emphasis from the coaching staff, there is no doubt in my mind that we'll have the personnel to provide that with or without a guy like Lapierre.
Like who? Thompson/Aulie are our leading hitters at 68 each, not exactly a number that will blow you out of the water...Also, Lapierre is very physical, always finishes his checks and will get in the face of the opposition. We need players to stand up for their teammates and that's exactly what he does. Helps that he's good at getting under the skin of the opposition's best players too.

He's the ideal player to be put with Nate against the Kessel line in TO, Spezza line in OTT, Vanek line in BUF, Datsyuk line in DET, Seguin line in BOS and the Pacioretty line in MTL. Also, players like Marchand, Ott, Rinaldo, Lucic etc. are already taking liberties against us without a pest/physical presence in our line-up; Lapierre helps respond to that.

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04-05-2013, 09:16 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Tampa Bay Trio View Post
Like who? Thompson/Aulie are our leading hitters at 68 each, not exactly a number that will blow you out of the water...Also, Lapierre is very physical, always finishes his checks and will get in the face of the opposition. We need players to stand up for their teammates and that's exactly what he does. Helps that he's good at getting under the skin of the opposition's best players too.

He's the ideal player to be put with Nate against the Kessel line in TO, Spezza line in OTT, Vanek line in BUF, Datsyuk line in DET, Seguin line in BOS and the Pacioretty line in MTL. Also, players like Marchand, Ott, Rinaldo, Lucic etc. are already taking liberties against us without a pest/physical presence in our line-up; Lapierre helps respond to that.
What in the world makes you think Lapierre would help with players taking liberties against us? Pests like him tend to invite such behavior, not prevent it.

By the way, here's his fight card. Start in 07-08 where his NHL career begins, I'm sure you'll find plenty of tough opponents that he actually went after

http://dropyourgloves.com/Fights/Fig...x?Player=14570

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04-05-2013, 09:32 PM
  #136
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We have Gudas. The hits will come.

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04-05-2013, 10:38 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by I Am Beat You View Post
What in the world makes you think Lapierre would help with players taking liberties against us? Pests like him tend to invite such behavior, not prevent it.

By the way, here's his fight card. Start in 07-08 where his NHL career begins, I'm sure you'll find plenty of tough opponents that he actually went after

http://dropyourgloves.com/Fights/Fig...x?Player=14570
I'm not saying he's a fighter, you're missing the point. He'll still stand up to people and get in their face. We need hits from our forwards and some true grit up front, Lapierre brings that.

What I'm trying to tell you is that pests will be pests, it doesn't matter whether we invite it or not. I'm tired of this weak ass team skating on the ice each night and every other team taking liberties on our players. We have the skill and speed, we just need some physicality to complement it. None of our current forwards, or any in our prospect pool, can bring it to the opposition like Lapierre does.

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04-05-2013, 10:40 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Pronounced Anders View Post
We have Gudas. The hits will come.
We're fine on d, it's the forward group's physicality I'm concerned with. We need more hits up front, someone to take the body consistently on the forecheck.

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04-05-2013, 11:02 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Tampa Bay Trio View Post
I'm not saying he's a fighter, you're missing the point. He'll still stand up to people and get in their face. We need hits from our forwards and some true grit up front, Lapierre brings that.
He'll get in some players' faces, then run his mouth and skate away. Sure he's physical, but his hypothetical roster spot on this team would likely be filled by someone with physicality to their game anyway in his absence.

Quote:
What I'm trying to tell you is that pests will be pests, it doesn't matter whether we invite it or not. I'm tired of this weak ass team skating on the ice each night and every other team taking liberties on our players. We have the skill and speed, we just need some physicality to complement it. None of our current forwards, or any in our prospect pool, can bring it to the opposition like Lapierre does.
You keep mentioning how you dislike opposing teams taking liberties with our players, but what makes you think Lapierre would do anything to change that for the better? So he hits. Big deal. Plenty of 4th liners do. He also rarely backs up his actions and picks his spots, as you can see in the link I provided.

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04-05-2013, 11:32 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by I Am Beat You View Post
He'll get in some players' faces, then run his mouth and skate away. Sure he's physical, but his hypothetical roster spot on this team would likely be filled by someone with physicality to their game anyway in his absence.

You keep mentioning how you dislike opposing teams taking liberties with our players, but what makes you think Lapierre would do anything to change that for the better? So he hits. Big deal. Plenty of 4th liners do. He also rarely backs up his actions and picks his spots, as you can see in the link I provided.
It's that we'll finally have someone who finishes his checks game in and out. I'm not looking for an enforcer, with Crombeen re-signed it's clear that we won't be targeting one, so I want a pest who's going to get under the skin of the opposition's star players and can still produce points at a respectable level.

The key is plenty of 4th liners hit, but we have none and I can guarantee you can't name one on our roster or in our system that's ready to play next season. Also, it's hard to find 4th liners that can produce respectable numbers and have fairly outstanding speed, all while playing the role of the pest. It's not just about him deterring others from taking liberties on our players, it's the fact that we'll also have a player capable of doing the same back to them. He's an annoying and frustrating player that you hate playing against - something this team is sorely lacking up front.

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04-06-2013, 12:13 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Tampa Bay Trio View Post
It's that we'll finally have someone who finishes his checks game in and out.
We have a number of guys who finish their checks, and under a coach like Cooper, I'd expect the overall physicality of this team to become more apparent. I understand your frustrations with the lack of physicality among our forwards, but keep in mind that our two most physical forwards have been injured for portions of this season. Vinny and Malone would be on pace for 83 and 86 hits, respectively, if they had played all 36 games. Our rookies haven't shied way from the physical side of the game either.

If you factor in the defense, Gudas would be tops on the team (on pace for 141 hits), and all of the sudden physicality doesn't seem to be an issue.

Quote:
I'm not looking for an enforcer, with Crombeen re-signed it's clear that we won't be targeting one, so I want a pest who's going to get under the skin of the opposition's star players and can still produce points at a respectable level.
What good would a pest do us? Aside from giving you the satisfaction of seeing the other team get annoyed, I don't see what benefit the Lightning gets out of it. As I said before, that tends to invite more of the things that you seem to have a problem with opposing teams doing to us. I'm all for being hard to play against, but there's more to that than being a pr*ck on the ice.

Quote:
The key is plenty of 4th liners hit, but we have none and I can guarantee you can't name one on our roster or in our system that's ready to play next season. Also, it's hard to find 4th liners that can produce respectable numbers and have fairly outstanding speed, all while playing the role of the pest. It's not just about him deterring others from taking liberties on our players, it's the fact that we'll also have a player capable of doing the same back to them. He's an annoying and frustrating player that you hate playing against - something this team is sorely lacking up front.
Lapierre won't deter anything, so that's not even worth bringing up. It also surprises me that anyone would want a guy like him on a team with no shortage of small and young forwards in a division stacked with toughness. Aside from Pyatt (who may be a goner anyway), it seems as though just about everyone competing for a spot in the bottom six is capable of bringing at least a respectable amount of physicality. Don't be surprised to see Labrie make the team either.


Last edited by I Am Beat You: 04-06-2013 at 12:37 AM. Reason: sp
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04-06-2013, 12:51 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by I Am Beat You View Post
We have a number of guys who finish their checks, and under a coach like Cooper, I'd expect the overall physicality of this team to become more apparent. I understand your frustrations with the lack of physicality among our forwards, but keep in mind that our two most physical forwards have been injured for portions of this season. Vinny and Malone would be on pace for 83 and 86 hits, respectively, if they had played all 36 games. Our rookies haven't shied way from the physical side of the game either.

If you factor in the defense, Gudas would be tops on the team (on pace for 141 hits), and all of the sudden physicality doesn't seem to be an issue.

What good would a pest do us? Aside from giving you the satisfaction of seeing the other team get annoyed, I don't see what benefit the Lightning gets out of it. As I said before, that tends to invite more of the things that you seem to have a problem with opposing teams doing to us. I'm all for being hard to play against, but there's more to that than being a pr*ck on the ice.

Lapierre won't deter anything, so that's not even worth bringing up. It also surprises me that anyone would want a guy like him on a team with no shortage of small and young forwards in a division stacked with toughness. Aside from Pyatt (who may be a goner anyway), it seems as though just about everyone competing for s pot in the bottom six is capable of bringing at least a respectable amount of physicality. Don't be surprised to see Labrie make the team either.
First of all, you raise some very good points that I appreciate and definitely agree with to an extent. You believe a pest will only bring more unwanted attention to our team, which is understandable.

However, as we have both acknowledged, pests will continue to play their game regardless of who's in our line-up. For me, the only way to counter act that is to have one of our own. So often, players like Ott, Prust, Downie, Boll, Tootoo, Neil etc. are able to get under the skin of better players and distract them from concentrating on their games. The effect it has on performance is not directly measurable, but it's visibly effective nonetheless. I'm not condoning their methods or tactics in engaging the opposition, but quietly admire their ability to distract and create unbalance in the opposition.

I'm not claiming that Lapierre is the "only answer" to fill the void in peskiness/toughness/physicality this off-season (he was simply a player I noticed on the list of available UFAs this summer). I'm simply suggesting that he's the type of player we should be looking to add to complement our impressive stable of skilled players. If there's one available via trade that can fight, skate well, produce points and frequently hit, then by all means I'd welcome him with open arms.

However, with Malone or Vinny, they just can't seem to stay healthy and I'd prefer Vinny to focus on playing the game and eliminating the reckless abandon he sometimes exhibits, which makes him more susceptible to injury. I believe a player like Lapierre will take some of that burden that Vinny carries, but I'm not asking Vinny to play with less passion either (if that makes sense).

Physicality from defence is not my concern, as Gudas brings plenty to our team, and there's enough toughness/physicality on the back end between himself, Aulie and occasionally Hedman and Brewer.

Ideally, I would not have signed BJ to an extension since he's not an enforcer and does not provide enough in the way of points. Orr would have been able to fill the toughness/enforcer quotient for us and been the better option to help "deter" others from taking liberties on our team, but there's no certainty that he was going to make it to UFA either.


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04-06-2013, 06:46 AM
  #143
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I would like to Parrot what someone said earlier in this post about trying to reacquire Dominic Moore...

He has exhibited "pest" like elements when he's on the ice, and he definitely plays the game with an edge sometimes..He can get under the other teams skin, but mostly he's just a pesky player.

I loved Dominic Moore here, and I hope he comes back and plays even if it isn't for us.

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04-06-2013, 07:46 AM
  #144
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I want guys like Travis Moen in our bottom six. Big, defensive forwards who stand up for their teammates. When was the last time we had someone like that?

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04-06-2013, 09:39 AM
  #145
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When was the last time we had someone like that?
'09-'10 (Konopka, Fedoruk, Downie, Walker, Malone, Ohlund)
'08-'09 (Malone-70 games, Artyukhin-73games, Downie- 23 games, Koci-33games, Konopka-7games)

All of these guys stuck up for their teammates these two seasons...How did those years pan out again?

That argument aside...People want these big bruisers that can hit people and fight people, but how much durability do they really have?

How many of these players are still playing? Or are often injured? That style of play isn't sustainable IMO, and it shouldn't be a teams philosophy. I'm not saying teams shouldn't stick up for their players, but neither should teams field a squad of slow moving ingrates that only produce bruises and nothing else to the stat sheet.

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04-06-2013, 09:55 AM
  #146
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Cooper is going to make all of the difference in the world in the physicality department. Those of you who have watched the ahl games know he preaches complete games by all of his players, including physicality. Total wolf pack mentality

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04-06-2013, 09:59 AM
  #147
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'09-'10 (Konopka, Fedoruk, Downie, Walker, Malone, Ohlund)
'08-'09 (Malone-70 games, Artyukhin-73games, Downie- 23 games, Koci-33games, Konopka-7games)

All of these guys stuck up for their teammates these two seasons...How did those years pan out again?

That argument aside...People want these big bruisers that can hit people and fight people, but how much durability do they really have?

How many of these players are still playing? Or are often injured? That style of play isn't sustainable IMO, and it shouldn't be a teams philosophy. I'm not saying teams shouldn't stick up for their players, but neither should teams field a squad of slow moving ingrates that only produce bruises and nothing else to the stat sheet.
Just look at our teams in those years though, no goaltending, a weak defence and too many slow "enforcers/brutes". Right now, we have an excellent stable of skilled, fast players that could be complemented by a physical, pest/enforcer type. I don't think any of us are advocating for a slow brute who can't produce or skate either; we're talking about players like Lapierre, Ott, Neil, Clutterbuck, Prust etc.

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04-06-2013, 10:07 AM
  #148
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Just look at our teams in those years though, no goaltending, a weak defence and too many slow "enforcers/brutes". Right now, we have an excellent stable of skilled, fast players that could be complemented by a physical, pest/enforcer type. I don't think any of us are advocating for a slow brute who can't produce or skate either; we're talking about players like Lapierre, Ott, Neil, Clutterbuck, Prust etc.
You mean like Downie?

I loved Downie...Was fiesty, played with emotion, and didn't let people mess his team...That said, that type of player wasn't exactly welcome on our team and was traded away...

*Correction-I love Downie...Still have him on my STM jersey, and I'm still pretty upset over that move...Until Vas comes up, it still sticks in my side...

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04-06-2013, 10:30 AM
  #149
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You mean like Downie?

I loved Downie...Was fiesty, played with emotion, and didn't let people mess his team...That said, that type of player wasn't exactly welcome on our team and was traded away...

*Correction-I love Downie...Still have him on my STM jersey, and I'm still pretty upset over that move...Until Vas comes up, it still sticks in my side...
Yes Downie was the exact type of player that this team now needs. I'm sure Cooper would welcome him on this team, Guy certainly did not have as high of an affinity for his playing style though.

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04-06-2013, 01:11 PM
  #150
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We have absolutely no need for Drew Miller. I wouldn't be surprised if we shopped Pyatt either.
Hmm. I like Pyatt. He'll be in a contract year and he already plays hard. His value is higher than his price imo.

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