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Old
03-17-2013, 11:25 PM
  #1
stlweir
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Erik Johnson Trade

How does that deal look today? EJ missed some games with injury has 4 assists and is 25 years old. Stewart is 25 and leading the Blues in scoring, Shattenkirk 24 years old with 2 goals, 17 assists. Amazing.

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03-17-2013, 11:50 PM
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MattyMo35
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Still won't know for years. If Stewart turns into a 35-25-60 player, Shatty stays with his consistent 40 point seasons with solid defense, and Rattie turns into even a decent NHLer, I will be thrilled with the trade regardless what Siemens and EJ are able to develop into. Too early to tell, but right now this team is better with Shatty and Stewart than it would be with EJ and McClement in my opinion. Therefore, I still think it's a great trade. I still wish we would've been able to get the 10th pick so that we could've drafted a great player, and given the Avs our 25th overall in 2012. That would've tilted the scales quite a bit in our favor. Just missed on that.

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03-17-2013, 11:51 PM
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And, although The Blues could have drafted Jonathan Toews, they might rather have Stewart AND Shattenkirk, rather than just Toews.

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03-17-2013, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Robb_K View Post
And, although The Blues could have drafted Jonathan Toews, they might rather have Stewart AND Shattenkirk, rather than just Toews.
If Rattie develops into a good player, like consistent 20-25 goal scorer, then I agree that I'd rather have Stewart, Shattenkirk, and Rattie over Toews. However, if Chicago offered Toews for Stewart and Shatty, I'd drive them to the airport.

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03-18-2013, 12:22 AM
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We have the better forward, defenseman, and prospect.

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03-18-2013, 12:23 AM
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Bluesman91
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And, although The Blues could have drafted Jonathan Toews, they might rather have Stewart AND Shattenkirk, rather than just Toews.
Not so sure about that. There is a reason Toews has a cup and is captain of the Hawks.

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03-18-2013, 12:55 AM
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Not so sure about that. There is a reason Toews has a cup and is captain of the Hawks.
That's why I wrote "might", and not "should" or "would" rather have Stewart and Shattenkirk (and Rattie) rather than Toews. It will depend upon how all their entire careers turn out.

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03-18-2013, 01:13 AM
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It's a fantastic trade. Armstrong really hit a home run here. I would make that trade 100 times out of 100 if I could go back and do it again. Just awesome to get BOTH Stewart and Shattenkirk who have been two of our best players this year and both add a nice dynamic to the roster. As I'm sure many would agree, I would have been fine simply moving Johnson straight up for Shattenkirk, let alone getting Stewart and Rattie in the deal.

I still find it pretty evident Johnson won't hit his potential. Dude looks more average by the day.

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03-18-2013, 01:27 AM
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rumrokh
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Originally Posted by BlueDream View Post
It's a fantastic trade. Armstrong really hit a home run here. I would make that trade 100 times out of 100 if I could go back and do it again. Just awesome to get BOTH Stewart and Shattenkirk who have been two of our best players this year and both add a nice dynamic to the roster. As I'm sure many would agree, I would have been fine simply moving Johnson straight up for Shattenkirk, let alone getting Stewart and Rattie in the deal.

I still find it pretty evident Johnson won't hit his potential. Dude looks more average by the day.
I, too, would make the deal 100/100, but EJ is still a solid player. He still has the mistakes (completely brainless play on Minnesota's final goal yesterday), and his offensive instincts are poor, but he's a good penalty killer, good shot blocker, and is reliable in his own end.

Average relative to his draft position and physical tools? Sure, but I wouldn't say he's average overall.

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03-18-2013, 06:52 AM
  #10
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It was a great trade for us in the summer, and now that Stewart is back to his best it looks unbelievable. The only negatives are that we didn't manage the 10th overall pick to get the protection and the fact any Stewart, Shattenkirk or EJ thread on the main/trade board get overtaken with talk of the trade!

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Originally Posted by Robb_K View Post
And, although The Blues could have drafted Jonathan Toews, they might rather have Stewart AND Shattenkirk, rather than just Toews.
I know it isn't what you were getting at, but I highly doubt there is a team in the League that wouldn't have taken EJ first overall; there is no doubt he was the consensus #1.

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03-18-2013, 12:05 PM
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I, too, would make the deal 100/100, but EJ is still a solid player. He still has the mistakes (completely brainless play on Minnesota's final goal yesterday), and his offensive instincts are poor, but he's a good penalty killer, good shot blocker, and is reliable in his own end.

Average relative to his draft position and physical tools? Sure, but I wouldn't say he's average overall.
I wouldn't say his offensive instincts are poor. He did put up 39 points on a very offensively impotent Blues club and even led the team in scoring for something like 15 to 20 games. If he played like that with this group of forwards he could score just as much as Pietrangelo or Shattenkirk.

To me it looks like EJ has Scott Stevens syndrome, he can either score points or play defense. Maybe he needs to pick one and go with it because when he tries to do both it looks like he gets caught in a mental no man's land and both sides suffer. I would like to see what would happen if you put him under the tutelage of a good coach(Tippett, Hitchcock, Babcock, etc)that would help him get past these mental road blocks and blossom as a player.

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03-18-2013, 12:48 PM
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Vladys Gumption
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I loved the trade then, and I love it even more now. I was never huge on EJ. Saw the tools were there, but I never saw the hockey IQ. As somebody else said, I would have done EJ for Shattenirk straight up

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03-18-2013, 12:49 PM
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Blue, the stats say otherwise. The Blues only scored 2 more goals than the Avs did last season - 210-208. Shatty had 9 goals and 34 assists to EJ's 4 - 22. We know Shatty often got second team PP time. If EJ wasn't on the Avs first PP unit it was because he didn't produce. This year the Blues have scored 16 more goals than the Avs. It appears that EJ has regressed offensively.

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03-18-2013, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by stlweir View Post
Blue, the stats say otherwise. The Blues only scored 2 more goals than the Avs did last season - 210-208. Shatty had 9 goals and 34 assists to EJ's 4 - 22. We know Shatty often got second team PP time. If EJ wasn't on the Avs first PP unit it was because he didn't produce. This year the Blues have scored 16 more goals than the Avs. It appears that EJ has regressed offensively.
When I compare players I try to look at skill and ability while trying not to lean too much on the stat column. I look for how their skills would translate to our current team not necessarily what they are doing on their current team.

My main offensive complaint is that I would also like to see him rush the puck more often. When EJ was the most dangerous offensively he was rushing the puck, going deep into the offensive zone on pinches and playing from below the faceoff dot. Think back to that between the legs behind the back pass to McDonald from below the goal line, or his slap passes while rushing the right wing, or his OT winners where he just rushed in and sniped a goal. Where the hell did that EJ go? Is that something he decided to stop doing or is it something Payne and now Sacco have asked him not to do? The ability is there, why is he not using it?

My secondary offensive complaint is obviously the trying for the 120mph slapper. He has a pretty darn good wrister and he needs to use it more often.

His decision making clearly needs to be cleaned up. When he plays on instincts he's a game changer when he thinks too much he doesn't look very good.


Edit: I just wanted to throw in a random thought I had. Why does he look worse under coaches with less structure. He looked great under Murray, worse under Payne and worse still under Sacco.

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03-18-2013, 03:26 PM
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Not so sure about that. There is a reason Toews has a cup and is captain of the Hawks.
Yeah, there are several. They're called "teammates". Toews wouldn't have won a cup with us.

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03-18-2013, 04:14 PM
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I loved the trade then, and I love it even more now. I was never huge on EJ. Saw the tools were there, but I never saw the hockey IQ. As somebody else said, I would have done EJ for Shattenirk straight up
Totally agree. I'm afraid Cole may be in the same boat. Certainly hope I am wrong.

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03-18-2013, 04:37 PM
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Yeah, there are several. They're called "teammates". Toews wouldn't have won a cup with us.
I guess that's why he was the 4th youngest captain in NHL history and also won a Con Smythe and Cup as the captain.


Last edited by Mr. Canucklehead: 03-18-2013 at 08:04 PM. Reason: Removed quip.
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03-18-2013, 05:15 PM
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I guess that's why he was the 4th youngest captain in NHL history and also won a Con Smythe and Cup as the captain.
He still probably wouldn't have won a cup with us anyways. He had Kane, Byfuglien, Ladd, Hossa, Sharp, Seabrook, Keith, and many good support players. In fact, Chicago lost Niemi, Byfuglien, Ladd, and Versteeg who were all important pieces for winning that cup. Armstrong explicitly said he won't be stacking the team up for 1 year just to lose them the following year.

Toews is a great player, but he is still not more effective than both Stewart and Shatty.


Last edited by Mr. Canucklehead: 03-18-2013 at 08:04 PM. Reason: Edited quote.
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03-18-2013, 05:35 PM
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Another point to mention is how the trade narrowed the age spread of talent for the Blues.

Even if ten years from now, we decided that all the players in the trade even out (unlikely), the Blues will have concentrated their talent into a similar window.

McClement is 30
EJ is 24
Siemens is 19

Stewart is 25
Shattenkirk is 24
Rattie is 20

McClement has already departed Colorado. With defensemen typically taking longer to develop, I wonder how many years Colorado will have both EJ and Siemens as significant members of their blueline.

Meanwhile, Stewart and Shattenkirk both are making significant contributions right now, and are likely to still be doing so when Rattie starts contributing in a couple of years.

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03-18-2013, 05:46 PM
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Totally agree. I'm afraid Cole may be in the same boat. Certainly hope I am wrong.
I think Cole will be fine. He isn't blessed with the physical talent that EJ has. He's already starting to develop into a solid defensive defenseman.

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03-18-2013, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueBeard View Post
When I compare players I try to look at skill and ability while trying not to lean too much on the stat column. I look for how their skills would translate to our current team not necessarily what they are doing on their current team.

My main offensive complaint is that I would also like to see him rush the puck more often. When EJ was the most dangerous offensively he was rushing the puck, going deep into the offensive zone on pinches and playing from below the faceoff dot. Think back to that between the legs behind the back pass to McDonald from below the goal line, or his slap passes while rushing the right wing, or his OT winners where he just rushed in and sniped a goal. Where the hell did that EJ go? Is that something he decided to stop doing or is it something Payne and now Sacco have asked him not to do? The ability is there, why is he not using it?

My secondary offensive complaint is obviously the trying for the 120mph slapper. He has a pretty darn good wrister and he needs to use it more often.

His decision making clearly needs to be cleaned up. When he plays on instincts he's a game changer when he thinks too much he doesn't look very good.


Edit: I just wanted to throw in a random thought I had. Why does he look worse under coaches with less structure. He looked great under Murray, worse under Payne and worse still under Sacco.
I don't know about that. I think you may be remember the good times more than they actually happened. I remember a LOT of times EJ skating through the neutral zone, splitting the defense, pulling up, and looking around wondering where his support was.

EJ certainly has the ability to be a game changer. But I don't know that he has the ability to do it consistently.

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03-18-2013, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueBeard View Post
I wouldn't say his offensive instincts are poor. He did put up 39 points on a very offensively impotent Blues club and even led the team in scoring for something like 15 to 20 games. If he played like that with this group of forwards he could score just as much as Pietrangelo or Shattenkirk.

To me it looks like EJ has Scott Stevens syndrome, he can either score points or play defense. Maybe he needs to pick one and go with it because when he tries to do both it looks like he gets caught in a mental no man's land and both sides suffer. I would like to see what would happen if you put him under the tutelage of a good coach(Tippett, Hitchcock, Babcock, etc)that would help him get past these mental road blocks and blossom as a player.
Points alone, especially in that range, are not an indicator of offensive instincts. Notice how Pietro and Shatty can get their shots through traffic with amazing regularity and EJ still just fires the puck right off shinpads. When he rushes the puck, he can look really dynamic at first, but he gets tunnel vision and either puts a low-chance wrister on net or gets angled off into the boards and the play dies because he doesn't use his teammates well.

Anyone with good physical tools and half a brain can rack up points in the right situation. But when more is asked of them and the situation changes a bit, you see their true nature.

D'Agostini scored 20 goals and almost 50 points a couple years ago. Most people here are not saying hey, he deserves a spot on a scoring line because he's truly capable.

It's entirely possible he'd get his confidence back under a good coach, but I seriously doubt we'd see him make significant strides in using his shot and using his teammates. His powerplay point production is just one percent off his rate in St. Louis, yet he's looked so ineffective that they took him off top powerplay duty in exchange for five forwards, recently. There comes a time when a team has outgrown forcing a player into an unfit role. EJ's powerplay time dropped by half a minute each year he was here, as they got more powerplay depth (and started using Steen on the point). Sacco appears to be clueless, but he also appears to have made choices similar to what the Blues did in that regard.

You could tell that was the right decision by watching the Avs, but if you go read their current EJ trade thread, there are several fans presenting an unbiased appraisal instead of OMG EJ R TEH #1!!!, and they say hey, it's time to look at this body of work and realize he's not a perennial 50 point guy - he can't get his shot through and taking away his powerplay responsibility was the right call because multiple guys, from rookies to forwards, have looked better on the point.

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03-18-2013, 09:28 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumrokh View Post
Points alone, especially in that range, are not an indicator of offensive instincts. Notice how Pietro and Shatty can get their shots through traffic with amazing regularity and EJ still just fires the puck right off shinpads. When he rushes the puck, he can look really dynamic at first, but he gets tunnel vision and either puts a low-chance wrister on net or gets angled off into the boards and the play dies because he doesn't use his teammates well.

Anyone with good physical tools and half a brain can rack up points in the right situation. But when more is asked of them and the situation changes a bit, you see their true nature.

D'Agostini scored 20 goals and almost 50 points a couple years ago. Most people here are not saying hey, he deserves a spot on a scoring line because he's truly capable.

It's entirely possible he'd get his confidence back under a good coach, but I seriously doubt we'd see him make significant strides in using his shot and using his teammates. His powerplay point production is just one percent off his rate in St. Louis, yet he's looked so ineffective that they took him off top powerplay duty in exchange for five forwards, recently. There comes a time when a team has outgrown forcing a player into an unfit role. EJ's powerplay time dropped by half a minute each year he was here, as they got more powerplay depth (and started using Steen on the point). Sacco appears to be clueless, but he also appears to have made choices similar to what the Blues did in that regard.

You could tell that was the right decision by watching the Avs, but if you go read their current EJ trade thread, there are several fans presenting an unbiased appraisal instead of OMG EJ R TEH #1!!!, and they say hey, it's time to look at this body of work and realize he's not a perennial 50 point guy - he can't get his shot through and taking away his powerplay responsibility was the right call because multiple guys, from rookies to forwards, have looked better on the point.
Completely agree. The physical tools are undoubtedly there. He just doesn't have the hockey sense. It's a shame.

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03-18-2013, 10:34 PM
  #24
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The Johnson trade is one of my favorite things to happen to this franchise in the last several years. It was a great move. Johnson can't put it all together.

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03-19-2013, 01:26 AM
  #25
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He had a pretty brutal game tonight. Totally at fault for one of the goals, pulled an early season AP-move and stepped up at the wrong time which lead to a clear 2-1 for Chicago which they buried.

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