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2013 Leafs Trades/Proposals/Signings X - Steckel traded, next on the docket...

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Old
03-19-2013, 10:26 AM
  #526
Faltorvo
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Originally Posted by Frank Stallone View Post


They didn't really have a choice.
If they had offered what they wanted and if Boston actually wanted him, he would still be there.

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03-19-2013, 10:28 AM
  #527
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If he was on the Leafs, change "Kessel" to "Patrick Kane" and we're all talking about trading him.
And when Chicago fans in the past were talking about trading away some salary and trading for a goalie, who was the common name that got floated around? Toews, Sharp, Hossa, Keith, or Seabrook? No, it was the one-dimensional winger, because they view what he brings to the table as the most expendable.

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03-19-2013, 10:29 AM
  #528
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We aren't trading Kessel... not sure why people are talking about it.
Because Nonis will have to make an executive decision at some point in the near future if Kessel's contract demands are unreasonable, and history has shown that such a scenario is a distinct possibility, that's why.

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03-19-2013, 10:29 AM
  #529
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Just thinking out loud here...

Ducks might need some cap relief soon. With the success of Fasth, think they ditch Hiller's $4.5M (for 1 more season)?

Should we give Hiller a test drive? I'm still of the opinion that neither one of our goalies are stable every day netminders so I'm intrigued.

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03-19-2013, 10:32 AM
  #530
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We need a number one center and an upgrade at the 1D position.If either of them ask for too much we will have to trade them to make cap space.Phaneuff isnt worth 6.5 million and isnt a number one D man either.Kessel has a worth but if he asks for too much...bye bye.
Well lets look at it this way Parise is pulling in 80 million cash for the first 8 years of his deal.

Perry 69m

My gut is telling me 60/64m over 8 to get PK nailed down.

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03-19-2013, 10:32 AM
  #531
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I guess Patrick Kane and his one dimension play is not helping the Hawks. But it's alright, he's expendable.

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03-19-2013, 10:32 AM
  #532
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Yes I do get your point. I just think that Kessel is not THE ONLY reason the line is getting scored on. You don't see my point, if we had a top pairing D for example, plus Dustin Brown instead of JVR on his LW would help?

I just believe it is easier to get a Brown, Clarkson type of player than it is to get a player with the natural scoring ability that Kessel brings. As I said, the UFA pool will not help as those types of point a game players will already be signed and thus NOT available. And I can promise you this with all certainty..... To get the scoring Kessel gives us, WILL cost us roughly what we paid for him already. Trading for a Brown/Clarkson type, would cost half of that.

Teams just don't trade 30+ goal scorers who happen to be 25 or so years old. Kessel will have 200 goals at some point just after his 26th birthday. Let's trade the bum!
Great players don't need certain types of other players to make their team better. It's a simple as that.

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03-19-2013, 10:33 AM
  #533
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Originally Posted by Pi View Post

I bet if Kessel was from London, Ontario instead of Minny he'd be a lot more appreciated.

Have you seen Stamkos play defense? He's a #1C and he's very lazy in his own zone, but nobody cares because he puts up points.

There are wingers that are good defensively like Hossa,Parise,Zetter etc but those are not the norm...they are the exception.

Look at Patrick Kane...he SUCKS defensively and is just as soft as Kessel but he is on a team that is very good defensively.

If he was on the Leafs, change "Kessel" to "Patrick Kane" and we're all talking about trading him.

Kessel's only flaw is that he goes invisible when he plays teams like the Bruins. He needs to be better in that department.

When Bozak/JvR aren't that good defensively, I can't expect Kessel to play at a Selke level..
This is the point Kessel traders and Haters just do NOT get. It's easier to put pieces in place to help than it is to replace his points. It is that simple.

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03-19-2013, 10:36 AM
  #534
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
If they had offered what they wanted and if Boston actually wanted him, he would still be there.
He wanted out. Go back and check some articles from the time prior to the trade.

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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
Great players don't need certain types of other players to make their team better. It's a simple as that.
Are you seriously implying this team would be better without Kessel?

I guess Steven Stamkos isn't a great player then, nor is Alexander Ovechkin, Jarome Iginla, Claude Giroux, Rick Nash, etc.

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03-19-2013, 10:36 AM
  #535
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Originally Posted by caribouPINE View Post
Just thinking out loud here...

Ducks might need some cap relief soon. With the success of Fasth, think they ditch Hiller's $4.5M (for 1 more season)?

Should we give Hiller a test drive? I'm still of the opinion that neither one of our goalies are stable every day netminders so I'm intrigued.
I just don't think he's a substantial upgrade over a healthy Reimer.

Luongo, Miller and Kipper are. Say what you want about Kipper, I still think he's a semi-elite goalie who might benefit playing in a different system.

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03-19-2013, 10:39 AM
  #536
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This is the point Kessel traders and Haters just do NOT get. It's easier to put pieces in place to help than it is to replace his points. It is that simple.
Exactly. I wanted to trade Kessel for one reason: Signed Perry.

Now that this option is no longer available, it is in our best interest to keep Kessel.

Sign him for 7Mx8..he's still so damn YOUNG. He'll be a 30 goal scorer for 6/8 years easily.

Why do people love shiny prospects and cap space so much?

We have Tim Connolly off the cap next year, Komisarek can be amnestied, we can trade Liles/Grabovski.

Leafs have a BOATLOAD of cap space.

The Leafs need to put a budget of about 13M to sign both Phaneuf/Kessel.

We have the assets to get a guy like Stastny who is decent defensively, good playmaker and plays better with good line mates and he's still young.

How about we see what Kessel can do for us in the playoffs before we ship him off for an unknown draft pick.

Everyone here knows what Kadri was drafted ~4 years ago right? He's finally making an impact.

You pick Sean Monahan near the top 10, good luck waiting for him to develop into a #2C while Kessel puts up PPG for his new team.

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Old
03-19-2013, 10:40 AM
  #537
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On a good team, defense is everyone's job. Nashville has won a lot more games than we have over past few years, who was their top scorer year to year? I'd rather the Leafs won more games then have a goal scorer in the top 10 in the league. Yes, with a player like Crosby you can have both but Kessel is not that type of player. That's why some people call him a complimentary piece rather than a guy you build around.
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
Datsyuks an offensively gifted player. He plays absolutely great defensively. There are countless examples.

You want some examples of some elite wingers specifically that are good defensively? Hossa, Zetterberg, Parise, St. Louis, Iginla, etc.

The above are examples of elite two-way PPG wingers. But ignoring those names, I would even prefer to have wingers that put up ~55-60 points, who are solid defensively, and can play a physical game, then to have a ~75-80 point winger who is bad defensively and potentially the softest "star" player in the entire league.

So just saying Kessel is a winger, so he doesn't need to be good defensively, is a little silly. Plenty of good offensive wingers are also good defensively.
The defensive responsibitility is a C's job, it has always been the C's job. Regardless of how good a player is defensively, all a winger has to do defensively in the defensive end is cover the point to neutralize a point shot or to get it out of the zone. A defensive winger is really not necessary except for the PK but then again do you want to risk your best player blocking shots on the PK? Sure some players are good defensively and offensively but thats a rare breed. Some players are physical but not good defensively, other players are just as useless as Kessel

St. Louis, Iginla? give me a break they suck defensively. Stamkos star #1C is lazy on the defensive side of the puck. Gaborik, Semin, Selanne, Kane, Sedins, Spezza, B. Richards, Nash, Thornton, Heatley, Kovalchuck, Duchene, Statsny, etc.

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03-19-2013, 10:41 AM
  #538
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Originally Posted by darrylsittler27 View Post
We need a number one center and an upgrade at the 1D position.If either of them ask for too much we will have to trade them to make cap space.Phaneuff isnt worth 6.5 million and isnt a number one D man either.Kessel has a worth but if he asks for too much...bye bye.
i would try jvr at center and find a winger to play with them that wins battles for pucks. as of right now our first line quits for to easy.you have to have talent but also have to win the one on ones!

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Old
03-19-2013, 10:43 AM
  #539
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
If they had offered what they wanted and if Boston actually wanted him, he would still be there.
You do realize Kessel forced his way out of Boston... He was getting bullied by the city, the team and the coach as ridiculous as it sounds He never really fit in the city, did not talk to anyone on the team, and the newpapers would turn on him. Pretty sure Boston offered only slightly less to keep Kessel but refused because he wanted out, not the other way around.

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03-19-2013, 10:44 AM
  #540
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The defensive responsibitility is a C's job, it has always been the C's job. Regardless of how good a player is defensively, all a winger has to do defensively in the defensive end is cover the point to neutralize a point shot or to get it out of the zone. A defensive winger is really not necessary except for the PK but then again do you want to risk your best player blocking shots on the PK? Sure some players are good defensively and offensively but thats a rare breed. Some players are physical but not good defensively, other players are just as useless as Kessel

St. Louis, Iginla? give me a break they suck defensively. Stamkos star #1C is lazy on the defensive side of the puck. Gaborik, Semin, Selanne, Kane, Sedins, Spezza, B. Richards, Nash, Thornton, Heatley, Kovalchuck, Duchene, Statsny, etc.
Defense is the centers job? That's a new one. Where did you learn that? I'm not being smug, I'm honestly curious.

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03-19-2013, 10:44 AM
  #541
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The defensive responsibitility is a C's job, it has always been the C's job. Regardless of how good a player is defensively, all a winger has to do defensively in the defensive end is cover the point to neutralize a point shot or to get it out of the zone. A defensive winger is really not necessary except for the PK but then again do you want to risk your best player blocking shots on the PK? Sure some players are good defensively and offensively but thats a rare breed. Some players are physical but not good defensively, other players are just as useless as Kessel

St. Louis, Iginla? give me a break they suck defensively. Stamkos star #1C is lazy on the defensive side of the puck. Gaborik, Semin, Selanne, Kane, Sedins, Spezza, B. Richards, Nash, Thornton, Heatley, Kovalchuck, Duchene, Statsny, etc.
Exactly...for every good defensive center/winger you can name, I can name three players that suck defensively and are still classified as stars.

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03-19-2013, 10:47 AM
  #542
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You do realize Kessel forced his way out of Boston... He was getting bullied by the city, the team and the coach as ridiculous as it sounds He never really fit in the city, did not talk to anyone on the team, and the newpapers would turn on him. Pretty sure Boston offered only slightly less to keep Kessel but refused because he wanted out, not the other way around.
True. Ever wonder why Bruins fans hate him even after what they got in the trade?

Kessel left Boston, he didn't want to play there. It's not like Joe Thornton were he had no idea he was being shopped.

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03-19-2013, 10:47 AM
  #543
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Defense is the centers job? That's a new one. Where did you learn that? I'm not being smug, I'm honestly curious.
Thats the position....

RD covers RW, LD covers LW, C covers C, LW covers LD, RW covers RD. Now imagine the defensive zone, is the wingers cover the point who is responsible for D in front of the net? Defensive responsibility of an offensive line deep in the defensive zone has been, and always will be, the centers responsibility. Why do you think "so and so isnt good enough defensively to be a C so lets move him to wing" happens so often?

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03-19-2013, 10:48 AM
  #544
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Defense is the centers job? That's a new one. Where did you learn that? I'm not being smug, I'm honestly curious.
It's a team effort, obviously, but generally speaking, he's right. Plenty of guys who played center in junior are moved to the wing at the NHL level because it's easier from a defensive perspective, as your responsibilities in the defensive zone are limited principally to covering the point man and getting the puck out along the boards.

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03-19-2013, 10:48 AM
  #545
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Because Nonis will have to make an executive decision at some point in the near future if Kessel's contract demands are unreasonable, and history has shown that such a scenario is a distinct possibility, that's why.
What history is that? Boston? He wanted out of Boston. That is the only reason he left.

Kessel will be resigned and that's the end of it. Nonis and co know the value of Kessel to this team and how great of a player he is. You don't trade a player like Phil Kessel unless he says "I want out" (like in Boston).

Unlike most people here that think that he is a 20 goal scorer and nothing else.

Phil Kessel at around 6.5-6.75M per year (which is what I believe he will ask for on an 8 year deal) is fine for Kessel.

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03-19-2013, 10:50 AM
  #546
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Great players don't need certain types of other players to make their team better. It's a simple as that.
What? I could NOT disagree more with that statement. Patrick Kane plays with with Toews. He has only scored 30 goals ONCE. Kessel plays with Toews and he scores how many?????? Come on.

Kessel scores 37 with Bozak. Geez.

Saying great players don't need good to great pieces is lame. Look at Calgary? Iginla is great, without many good to great pieces. Look at their results the last few years. Look at Chicago? Toews is a great player, he has great pieces like Kane, Hossa, Kieth, and Bolland and Seabrook. Look at Washington, they have a great player by the name of Ovechkin, but not a lot of elite or great pieces. Where are they in the standings? Every great player needs quality pieces or they are on an island. Look at Boston, on the top line Hortan has Bergeron. If they didn't have each other, and the Bruins didn't have Chara and Lucic do they win the cup? Do they even have a chance? Probably not. All great players need help. And a lot of it if they are to win championships.

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03-19-2013, 10:52 AM
  #547
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What history is that? Boston? He wanted out of Boston. That is the only reason he left.

Kessel will be resigned and that's the end of it. Nonis and co know the value of Kessel to this team and how great of a player he is. You don't trade a player like Phil Kessel unless he says "I want out" (like in Boston).

Unlike most people here that think that he is a 20 goal scorer and nothing else.

Phil Kessel at around 6.5-6.75M per year (which is what I believe he will ask for on an 8 year deal) is fine for Kessel.
This x100

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03-19-2013, 10:52 AM
  #548
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Thats the position....

RD covers RW, LD covers LW, C covers C, LW covers LD, RW covers RD. Now imagine the defensive zone, is the wingers cover the point who is responsible for D in front of the net? Defensive responsibility of an offensive line deep in the defensive zone has been, and always will be, the centers responsibility. Why do you think "so and so isnt good enough defensively to be a C so lets move him to wing" happens so often?
The wingers still have defensive responsibility. They still have to back check and get into the passing lanes. Being a center brings more responsibility, I'm not arguing that, but to say that defense is their job, and their job only, isn't accurate. The trap or left wing lock don't work without defensively responsible wingers.

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03-19-2013, 10:53 AM
  #549
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Probably would never happen but let's say Malkin wanted to be top dog in a big market. Would you offer:

Kessel+JVR+Bozak+1st and roll with..

Grabo-Malkin-Kulemin
Lupul-Kadri-Frattin
Mac/FA/Prospect-McClement-Biggs?
4th line TBD.

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03-19-2013, 10:54 AM
  #550
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The wingers still have defensive responsibility. They still have to back check and get into the passing lanes. Being a center brings more responsibility, I'm not arguing that, but to say that defense is their job, and their job only, isn't accurate. The trap or left wing lock don't work without defensively responsible wingers.
Obviously they have some responsibiility, but answer me this, a winger is weak defensively and it leads to opposition possession, and center is weak defensively and it opens a massive shooting lane. Which of the two direct results is more likely to result in a goal against?

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