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Datsyuk is the best 2 way player in the world

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Old
03-17-2013, 09:06 AM
  #126
Pavels Dog
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Some people look way to much at stats and not enough actual hockey. They are also funnily enough the same people who think Datsyuk has declined because of age. Even though he's arguably better than ever right now, or atleast as good.

Why he's not scoring at a nearly 100pt pace anymore? He's playing with Abdelkader/Cleary/Bertuzzi or lazy Franzen instead of Zetterberg/Hossa/Holmstrom and good Franzen like he was 07-09.

Honestly I don't have the interest or masochistic tendencies to debate if Datsyuk is the best two-way forward or not, if he's a top 3 or top 5 or top 10 player, what his advanced stats look like and why, and so on and on and on. It's like debating what food tastes the best based on statistical analysis.

Just watch the guy play when you can. Soon he'll be gone and all we'll have left is numbers and countless youtube highlight reels. People will say he was all highlights, nothing more. They will look at his numbers and achievements or lack thereof to make their case for him being the best, or for being overrated and barely a top 20 player in his day.

Right now we have the chance to look at the man actually play in order to determine his worth. And I don't think anyone who has been watching him extensively this year or past years can deny he's a very, very special player. I'll leave the statistical analysis for others and settle with knowing I am and have been for years very fortunate as a Wings fan to see one of the most uniquely gifted talents ever to play in the NHL.

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03-17-2013, 09:15 AM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavels Dog View Post
Some people look way to much at stats and not enough actual hockey. They are also funnily enough the same people who think Datsyuk has declined because of age. Even though he's arguably better than ever right now, or atleast as good.

Why he's not scoring at a nearly 100pt pace anymore? He's playing with Abdelkader/Cleary/Bertuzzi or lazy Franzen instead of Zetterberg/Hossa/Holmstrom and good Franzen like he was 07-09.

Honestly I don't have the interest or masochistic tendencies to debate if Datsyuk is the best two-way forward or not, if he's a top 3 or top 5 or top 10 player, what his advanced stats look like and why, and so on and on and on. It's like debating what food tastes the best based on statistical analysis.

Just watch the guy play when you can. Soon he'll be gone and all we'll have left is numbers and countless youtube highlight reels. People will say he was all highlights, nothing more. They will look at his numbers and achievements or lack thereof to make their case for him being the best, or for being overrated and barely a top 20 player in his day.

Right now we have the chance to look at the man actually play in order to determine his worth. And I don't think anyone who has been watching him extensively this year or past years can deny he's a very, very special player. I'll leave the statistical analysis for others and settle with knowing I am and have been for years very fortunate as a Wings fan to see one of the most uniquely gifted talents ever to play in the NHL.
Too much sense and logic. You are disgrace to hfboards. Please go away.

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Old
03-17-2013, 09:33 AM
  #128
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If you don't like math, just skip this post.

This argument seems to have been going round and round for years on HFBoards. And I think part of it is due to the fact that different people have different definitions for how to rate two-way players.

Say for instance each player had a rating for their offensive game and their defensive game. The best offensive player has an offensive score of 100 and every other player is scored relative to him. Same thing for the defense.

So without getting into names, lets say you had Player A whose offense was 100 and whose defense was 82. So his score is 182. Then you have Player B whose score is O90 D90. So he has a score of 180. So player A is better, right? I think that's a logical conclusion.

But when you are talking about who is the best two-way player, you are talking about dimension, There are probably posts in this thread using 'two-dimensional' synonymously (sp?) with two way play. And it's probably accurate. Player B from above offers something that Player A doesn't (even though on some sort of raw score Player A is better). Specifically, he offers a more well-rounded game and performs more consistently across all three zones.

So really if you are talking about this as a dimensional attribute. you need to score these players dimensionally. Basically, we need to introduce some sort of function which accounts for a players overall ability and his well-roundedness.

So let's say we score players two-dimensional ability by a forumla like:

o * d / f(o,d)

where f(o,d) is simply the hypotenuse of a right triangle which has o and d as its legs.

In this case, Player A's two dimensional score is 63.4 and player B's two-dimensional score is 63.6. So despite not being quite as good as Player A, Player B is the better two-way player.

(And just to point out: I'm sure there is somebody on hfboards who can propose a much better method of scoring well-roundedness. I'm not proposing this as absolute but merely as a suggestion/example as to why these arguments seem to continue without end).

I just don't see how you can not credit a player for his well-roundedness when you are talking about two-way players. But perhaps that is just me.


Last edited by 66871: 03-17-2013 at 09:40 AM.
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Old
03-17-2013, 09:38 AM
  #129
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Datsyuk is the most overrated player in the world.

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Old
03-17-2013, 10:19 AM
  #130
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Imagine next year (or even better if detroit was in the right conference from earlier in his career) when detroit is in the east and plays majority of games against toronto, montreal etc. There will be even more praise since the spotlight is in the East.

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03-17-2013, 10:35 AM
  #131
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I feel Bergeron is a more complete player than Datsyuk (he can do more things well than Datsyuk can, including all-around defense), but Datsyuk's offensive dominance still makes him a better overall player, all things considered. Still, Bergeron should be the favorite for the Selke right now. He has dominated games with his all-around game, just in a less flashy way.

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03-17-2013, 11:53 AM
  #132
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So awesome to wake up everyday and realize best two-way player in the world and generational talent Pavilion Datsyuk is a Red Wing.

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Old
03-17-2013, 12:43 PM
  #133
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I've never liked a player as much as Datsyuk. Even when we're not as good, Wings games are still entertaining because of him. The Wings forum is going to go to hell the year after next if he ends up leaving.

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Old
03-17-2013, 12:52 PM
  #134
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Datsyuk is as bulletproof as they come IMO. Style, character, substance. League needed to market guys like him x100.

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Old
03-17-2013, 12:59 PM
  #135
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I'm an Avs fan so I find it funny how people say now that Peter Forsberg was overrated. Maybe he was because he was built into this mythical player as if he was a perennial 130 point guy.

This is gonna be Datsyuk when he retires. People still think of him as if he's a 90-100 point player who's one of the best offensive forwards in the league and wins the puck over for his team just by stepping on the ice. He's basically the icon of people propping up a player in order to get credibility for paying attention to 2-way play and not just pts.

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Old
03-17-2013, 01:18 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavels Dog View Post
Just watch the guy play when you can.
There are different degrees of watching.

Some will see his overtime winner against Edmonton on Friday, while others will also see what he did 200 feet away from the Oilers net to set the wheels in motion when he identified his defenceman in trouble behind his net, went down to the goal-line in his corner to give the d-man a passing outlet, made a cross-ice outlet pass of his own to start the transition game, and then caught up to the play to receive a pass. Hence the superlatives.

DATSYUK A STAR IN NHLPA PLAYER POLL

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/...ayer-poll.html

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Old
03-17-2013, 01:22 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
Only warning

Get back on topic. Crosby isn't the topic.


I'm going to make a thread about Crosby being the best offensive player in the league, and I want anyone who brings a different player's name into the discussion to have their posts deleted.

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Old
03-17-2013, 01:51 PM
  #138
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I've watched a lot of great players... Lafleur, Bossy, Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Fedorov, Yzerman, Savard, Bure,

None of those guys compare to Datsyuk in entertainment value. Shift, after shift, after shift, this guy makes incredible things happen.

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03-17-2013, 02:02 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
I've watched a lot of great players... Lafleur, Bossy, Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Fedorov, Yzerman, Savard, Bure,

None of those guys compare to Datsyuk in entertainment value. Shift, after shift, after shift, this guy makes incredible things happen.
I think some people might disagree.

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03-17-2013, 02:17 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
Only warning

Get back on topic. Crosby isn't the topic.


If someone makes a claim that [insert player's name here] is the best in the world at something, there's a chance that opinion might be debated and that another player's name might come up.

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03-17-2013, 02:21 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Frank Garrett View Post
Can't wait until he bolts for the KHL. This guy won't be missed one bit by anyone outside of Detroit.
Are you kidding me? He's one of the most well liked players in the league and definitely one of the most entertaining.... speak for yourself

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Old
03-17-2013, 02:22 PM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
I've watched a lot of great players... Lafleur, Bossy, Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Fedorov, Yzerman, Savard, Bure,

None of those guys compare to Datsyuk in entertainment value. Shift, after shift, after shift, this guy makes incredible things happen.


Are you being serious?

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Old
03-17-2013, 02:24 PM
  #143
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Datsyuk thread on main boards? Uh oh here comes...

Saku11 to put him down
fly4apuckguy to put him down
a group of Blackhawks fans to tell us we aren't very good anymore, and that they have Toews

get your shields up my brethren!

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Old
03-17-2013, 02:26 PM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eternal Sunshine View Post
Datsyuk thread on main boards? Uh oh here comes...

Saku11 to put him down
fly4apuckguy to put him down
a group of Blackhawks fans to tell us we aren't very good anymore, and that they have Toews


get your shields up my brethren!
Krishna already popped in to thwart any comparisons with current top players, so don't worry about anything like that happening.

don't talk about anyone else in a player thread, even for comparison. just talk about the player in question.

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Old
03-17-2013, 02:30 PM
  #145
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I think the praise that Pav gets in the annual Player's Polls speaks enough about how great he is.

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Old
03-17-2013, 02:33 PM
  #146
nowhereman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
I've watched a lot of great players...Lafleur, Bossy, Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Fedorov, Yzerman, Savard, Bure,

None of those guys compare to Datsyuk in entertainment value. Shift, after shift, after shift, this guy makes incredible things happen.
I'm going to guess you're under 20?

Lemieux was the most skilled player of all time, while Lafleur and Bure were about as exciting as they come.

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Old
03-17-2013, 02:35 PM
  #147
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One of the most criminally underrated players in any sport. In my eyes, he's right there with guys like Crosby, hockey is a 2-way game. People are too enamored by offense when guys like Datysuk are arguably, impacting the game way more in a tighter system.

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03-17-2013, 02:35 PM
  #148
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I find it hard to agree because I wouldn't take Crosby over Pavel. But I might take Pavel over Malkin (ignoring age difference). The problem with judging 2 way forwards is that you need to consider a number of factors but lets simply this to their defensive game and their offensive game. Pavel is near the top of the forwards defensively though a player like Bolland or Mahaltra probably gets the edge. But offensively Crosby is the best in the game bar none and is above average defensively. That is Crosby > Malkin in a pure checking role.

How do you trade off those two factors is how the rankings get skewed. And in addition, things like physical game, speed etc are also factors.

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Old
03-17-2013, 02:35 PM
  #149
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It won't happen (since he'll leave for Russia before it then) but Datsyuk could be an All-Star into his 40s...he gives Larionov a run for his money in terms of smarts on the ice. His brain and work ethic in Fedorov's body would've been frightening.

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Old
03-17-2013, 02:36 PM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Atas2000 View Post
You really think there is a way to overrate Datsyuk?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
I've watched a lot of great players... Lafleur, Bossy, Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Fedorov, Yzerman, Savard, Bure,

None of those guys compare to Datsyuk in entertainment value. Shift, after shift, after shift, this guy makes incredible things happen.
I think that just about answers your question.

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